View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

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  • Bernie Sanders.

    18 51.43%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 14.29%
  • Neither.

    12 34.29%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #2201
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/bide...ry?id=69812092


    not good for Biden. Most people are only "somewhat enthusiastic" towards voting for him. 24% are very enthusiastic compared to 53% to Trump. Considering how close the election was last time in terms of sheer votes, the side with the most enthusiasm is going to win this thing, assuming enthusiasm equals getting out to vote as soon as they get off work or polls open vs "I'll come out and vote sometime today... Ahh oh well my state probably wont matter anyway"
    Yeah, the Democrats are fragmented and unenthusiastic. They will still have time to hype people after July but the Republicans are hyping their own forces for the past 3+2 years. While the Democrats had like 10 candidates, Republicans had general-rehearsals of how to bring out the vote, with buses and all and it was working well.
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  2. #2202

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    So is it the policy they support or proposed result of that policy? So is it people who want "free" healthcare, or people who support his whole policy including its implementation?
    They support universal healthcare. So, is half the American public Marxist now?
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  3. #2203
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    They support universal healthcare. So, is half the American public Marxist now?
    Or more...70 percent of Americans support 'Medicare for all' proposal

    Late Night with Seth Meyers- Sanders Talks COVID-19, Medicare for All and Coronavirus Stimulus. Today, 31-3.


    ---
    In Europe, even very conservative parties would never question "Medicare for All".
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  4. #2204

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    And then less, when specifics are asked about:
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/po...ded-2019-01-23

  5. #2205

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    In Europe, even very conservative parties would never question "Medicare for All".
    No, they wouldn't question the notion of public-funded healthcare.
    Problem is that Europe doesn't spend billions/year on military-industrial complex, courtesy of NATO. Funny that Sanders does not address that and instead of dealing with problem of the fiscal parasitism of military-industrial complex, NATO, foreign aid, foreign governments, etc. who leech money from taxpayer, he just wants to "tax the rich".

  6. #2206

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    No, they wouldn't question the notion of public-funded healthcare.
    Problem is that Europe doesn't spend billions/year on military-industrial complex, courtesy of NATO. Funny that Sanders does not address that and instead of dealing with problem of the fiscal parasitism of military-industrial complex, NATO, foreign aid, foreign governments, etc. who leech money from taxpayer, he just wants to "tax the rich".
    Those pesky little Marxists that make up more than half the American public according to Heathen Hammer's logic...
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  7. #2207

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Those pesky little Marxists that make up more than half the American public according to Heathen Hammer's logic...
    Funny, how you already dodged my question about whether it is public healthcare or specifically Sanders's policy that more then half of US public wants. Also your post doesn't really address what I said. While Sanders refuses to address the elephant in the room ( fiscal parasitism of military-industrial complex, NATO, foreign aid, foreign governments, etc) his promises are just that - since he has not proposed a fiscally sane method of implementing them.

  8. #2208

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Funny, how you already dodged my question about whether it is public healthcare or specifically Sanders's policy that more then half of US public wants. Also your post doesn't really address what I said. While Sanders refuses to address the elephant in the room ( fiscal parasitism of military-industrial complex, NATO, foreign aid, foreign governments, etc) his promises are just that - since he has not proposed a fiscally sane method of implementing them.
    It's really funny that you're talking about me dodging a question. Especially when that question revolves around a level of unnecessary detail that you yourself introduced. Over half the American public support universal healthcare managed by the federal government. Whether you wanna call that Medicare for All or not is not my concern. You've been running away from my question for pages now. Here it is once again: More than half the American public support Medicare for All. Does that make half the Americans Marxist?
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  9. #2209

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It's really funny that you're talking about me dodging a question. Especially when that question revolves around a level of unnecessary detail that you yourself introduced. Over half the American public support universal healthcare managed by the federal government. Whether you wanna call that Medicare for All or not is not my concern. You've been running away from my question for pages now. Here it is once again: More than half the American public support Medicare for All. Does that make half the Americans Marxist?
    There is no unnecessary detail: the question is whether you are claiming US public supports public healthcare in general, or what is proposed by Sanders specifically. Why is it so hard for Sanderistas to answer such a question?

  10. #2210
    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Yeah, the Democrats are fragmented and unenthusiastic. They will still have time to hype people after July but the Republicans are hyping their own forces for the past 3+2 years. While the Democrats had like 10 candidates, Republicans had general-rehearsals of how to bring out the vote, with buses and all and it was working well.
    Biden is at 8% less enthusiasm than Hillary Clinton was...in November 2016.

    Funny that Sanders does not address that and instead of dealing with problem of the fiscal parasitism of military-industrial complex, NATO, foreign aid, foreign governments, etc. who leech money from taxpayer, he just wants to "tax the rich".
    you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, because he is the only democratic candidate that does question that
    Last edited by RedGuard; March 31, 2020 at 08:49 PM.

  11. #2211
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    The problem for Biden is that he’s old and seen as an establishment candidate despite his connection to Barack Obama. The only thing that is really giving him a boost is the fact that we are dealing with this pandemic and it has trashed the economy and may enter us into a new real recession leading into November. Trump’s whole motto for years has been relying on how good the economy is (regardless of how artificially propped up it was and how much of it occurred under Obama) and considering he tried so hard to associate the economy with himself, a lot or moderates/independents may also decide to blame him for it tanking.

    The issue still is that the Republicans behind Trump have already proven they will be behind him regardless, deciding to find the virus and it’s fallout unavoidable, while for Biden Democrats won’t cling to him as vehemently. I think a lot of people who on Trump just like in 2016 do it more for popularity and attention in their social group but are often too lazy of unenthusiastic to actually go out and vote, but I still think this pandemic gives Biden what he needs to win unless he really drops the ball, which of course isn’t out of the question for Creepy Uncle Joe.
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  12. #2212

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post

    you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, because he is the only democratic candidate that does question that
    I'm talking about his policy on healthcare. How is he going to fund it?

  13. #2213
    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    I'm talking about his policy on healthcare. How is he going to fund it?
    in his live feed that popped up on Youtube yesterday, he had a round table with Dr.Cornell West and several other people, including one of the writers of the Coronavirus bill. Where the Fed pulled 3 trillion dollars out its ass.

    in that feed he mentioned that he was going to pay for it by cutting military expenditure by 25% (which probably includes NATO), raise taxes on the top 10% of income earners, cut costs by keeping Health Insurance companies out of the market, having a single united payer(the government) negotiating pharma costs, instead of the haphazard for profit way its done now, which increases costs in some cases by 700%, and hes also going to take 2-5% more out of every american's pocket which will be minuscule compared to the average 2-5k a year hospital bill most Americans don't pay,

    not to mention how much ing money most families spend on healthcare total would decrease dramatically. I knew someone who was just working so that her family could have health insurance. Her husband was the only one bringing in actual income to her household. She spent about 25k a year because one of her children had a condition.

    Ignorance is no excuse at this point. Again you keep asking the same question over and over again like it hasn't already been answered multiple times.

    America is the only country in the top ten economically that doesn't have an NHS. Don't tell me it can't be done.
    Last edited by RedGuard; March 31, 2020 at 10:59 PM.

  14. #2214

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    There is no unnecessary detail: the question is whether you are claiming US public supports public healthcare in general, or what is proposed by Sanders specifically. Why is it so hard for Sanderistas to answer such a question?
    Oh, it is unnecessary detail since the distinction between the two doesn't really change the fact that either of them would be labeled as Marxist under your standards. So, are you gonna answer my question that you've been avoiding for pages? Or are you gonna continue to say ironic statements like why I'm not answering your question?
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  15. #2215

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Oh, it is unnecessary detail since the distinction between the two doesn't really change the fact that either of them would be labeled as Marxist under your standards. So, are you gonna answer my question that you've been avoiding for pages? Or are you gonna continue to say ironic statements like why I'm not answering your question?
    Your question is based on conflating the general notion of state-funded healthcare with proposals made by a far-left candidate with marginal political support. So your question isn't a real question, but a failed "gotcha" attempt that we can ignore since it doesn't add anything substantial to the argument or debate overall.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    in his live feed that popped up on Youtube yesterday, he had a round table with Dr.Cornell West and several other people, including one of the writers of the Coronavirus bill. Where the Fed pulled 3 trillion dollars out its ass.

    in that feed he mentioned that he was going to pay for it by cutting military expenditure by 25% (which probably includes NATO), raise taxes on the top 10% of income earners, cut costs by keeping Health Insurance companies out of the market, having a single united payer(the government) negotiating pharma costs, instead of the haphazard for profit way its done now, which increases costs in some cases by 700%, and hes also going to take 2-5% more out of every american's pocket which will be minuscule compared to the average 2-5k a year hospital bill most Americans don't pay,

    not to mention how much ing money most families spend on healthcare total would decrease dramatically. I knew someone who was just working so that her family could have health insurance. Her husband was the only one bringing in actual income to her household. She spent about 25k a year because one of her children had a condition.

    Ignorance is no excuse at this point. Again you keep asking the same question over and over again like it hasn't already been answered multiple times.

    America is the only country in the top ten economically that doesn't have an NHS. Don't tell me it can't be done.
    Problem is, as Zodiac Killer had pointed out in his CNN debate with Bernie, Bernie's plan would cost 2.5 trillion in the first year. To put it into perspective, federal income taxes, all of them, are 1.5 trillion per year. So that would require pretty much tripling the current income tax. Of course, Bernie will say his usual mantra about "taxing the rich". However, the problem is that even if they start taxing every millionaire and take 100% of their income(assuming that none of them would use tax loopholes and offshores), it would only cover Bernie's plan for 5 months.
    * Curb your enthusiasm theme starts playing*
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; April 01, 2020 at 12:16 PM.

  16. #2216

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Your question is based on conflating the general notion of state-funded healthcare with proposals made by a far-left candidate with marginal political support. So your question isn't a real question, but a failed "gotcha" attempt that we can ignore since it doesn't add anything substantial to the argument or debate overall.
    Is the general notion of state-funded healthcare not Marxist while Medicare for All is? Why? What's the difference that makes one Marxist and the other not? You're not ignoring my question because it's a failed gotcha attempt but because the point pierces a stake down your argument's metaphorical throat.
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  17. #2217
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    they wouldn't question the notion of public-funded healthcare
    Precisely. Never. The United States has the highest health spending based on GDP share among developed countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Problem is that Europe doesn't spend billions/year on military-industrial complex
    Spending billions /year on military-industrial complex isn't our first priority.
    Anyway, NATO estimates that by the end of 2024, European NATO allies and Canada will have added an extra $400 billion dollars to their defence budgets since 2016.Explore the interactive map showing defence expenditure estimates of NATO Countries as a share of GDP (%) NATO: Which Countries Pay Their Share On Defence?
    -
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    PUBLIÉ LE 10 MARS 202 PAR PIKETTY-
    In English,Sanders to the aid of democracy in the United States

    "Let it be said at once: the treatment received by Bernie Sanders in the leading media in the United States and in Europe is unjust and dangerous. Everywhere on the main networks and the large daily papers we read that Sanders is an ‘extremist’ and that only a ‘centrist’ candidate like Biden could triumph over Trump. This biased and somewhat unscrupulous treatment is particularly regrettable when a closer examination of the facts actually suggests that only a full-scale reorientation of the type proposed by Sanders would eventually rid American democracy of the inegalitarian practices which undermine it and deal with the electoral disaffection of the working classes.

    Let’s begin with the programme. To say emphatically, as Sanders does, that a public, universal health insurance would enable the American population to be cared for more efficiently and more cheaply than the present private and extremely unequal system is not an ‘extremist’ statement. It is on the contrary a declaration, perfectly well documented by many research studies and international comparisons. In these difficult times when everyone deplores the rise of “fake news”, it is right and proper for some candidates to rely on established facts and not resort to obscure language and complex tactics.


    Similarly, Sanders is right when he proposes large-scale public investment in favour of education and public universities. Historically the prosperity of the United States has relied in the 20th century on the educational advance of the country over Europe and on a degree of equality in this field, and definitely not on the sacralisation of inequality and the unlimited accumulation of fortunes which Reagan wished to impose as an alternative model in the 1980s. The failure of this Reagan-style rupture is patent today with the growth of national income per capita being halved and an unprecedented rise in inequality. Sanders simply proposed a return to the sources of the country’s model for development: a very wide diffusion of education.


    Sanders also proposes a considerable rise in the level of the minimum wage (a policy in which the United States were for a long time the world leaders) and to learn from the experiences in co-management and voting rights for employees on the Boards of Directors of firms implemented successfully in Germany and in Sweden for decades.

    Generally speaking, Sanders’ proposals show him to be a pragmatic social-democrat endeavouring to make the most of the experiences available and in no way a ‘radical’. And when he chooses to go further than European social democracy, for example with his proposal for a federal wealth tax rising to 8% per annum on multi-billionaires, this corresponds to the reality of the excessive concentration of wealth in the United States and the fiscal and administrative capacities of the American federal state, which has already been demonstrated historically.


    Now, let’s deal with the question of opinion polls. The problem of the repeated assertions that Biden would be better placed to beat Trump is that they have no objective factual basis. If we examine the existing data such as those compiled by RealClearPolitics.com, it is clear in all the national opinion polls that Sanders would beat Trump with the same differential as Biden. These polls are of course premature, but they are just as much for Biden as for Sanders. In several key States, we find that Sanders would come out ahead of Trump, for example in Pennsylvania and in Wisconsin.


    If we analyse the surveys on the primaries which have just taken place, it appears clearly that Sanders mobilises the working-class electorate more than Biden. It is true that the latter attracts a considerable share of the Black vote, an inheritance of the Obama-Biden ticket. But Sanders mobilises the vast majority of the Latino vote and crushes Biden amongst the 18-29 years age group, as he does in the 30-44 years group. Above all, all the polls indicate that Sanders has the best scores amongst the underprivileged (annual incomes below 50,000$, no higher education qualification), whereas Biden, on the contrary, has the best scores amongst the most privileged (annual incomes above 100,000$, higher education diploma), whether it be White voters or those from minority backgrounds, independent of age.


    Now it so happens that the highest potential for mobilisation is amongst the most underprivileged social categories. Generally speaking, voter turnout has always been relatively low in the United States: just barely above 50%, whereas it has long been between 70%-80% in France and in the United Kingdom, before falling recently. If we examine things in greater detail, we also find that on the other side of the Atlantic, there is a structurally lower participation amongst the poorest half of the voters, with a difference in the region of 15%-20% with the richest half (a difference which has also begun to be visible in Europe since the 1990s, even if it remains less marked)"
    Last edited by Ludicus; April 01, 2020 at 12:18 PM.
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  18. #2218
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Biden throws the idea of a cyber-convention of Democrats instead of a physical one. I think that's a bad idea. Such a convention would soon be flooded by people far and wide and the guy that logs in to watch a multi-day convention is often not the moderate voter that happens to vote for the democrats, but the fanatic. And when many fanatics gather up, things go bad.
    On top of practically inviting a lot of fringe and radical elements to watch, there's also the problem of the Russian trolls that are well educated on how to capitalize on the rage of those fringe elements.
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  19. #2219

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    It will be a spectacular crap show, will end as hilariously as Iowa, and Democrats will blame "Russian trolls" and BAD ORANGE MAN for it.

  20. #2220

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Biden throws the idea of a cyber-convention of Democrats instead of a physical one. I think that's a bad idea. Such a convention would soon be flooded by people far and wide and the guy that logs in to watch a multi-day convention is often not the moderate voter that happens to vote for the democrats, but the fanatic. And when many fanatics gather up, things go bad.
    On top of practically inviting a lot of fringe and radical elements to watch, there's also the problem of the Russian trolls that are well educated on how to capitalize on the rage of those fringe elements.
    Really. You think they should have thousands of people cram into a convention center in these times? I really have no sympathy for you if your solution in these lose-lose political times is to create a virus hot-spot and then send those people back to their 55 odd states and territories and undo every piece of effort that at least most of us have been going through. You want to do this for every political party, you got your own country.
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