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Thread: Various downtimes today

  1. #1
    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Various downtimes today

    I am making copies of literally EVERYTHING involved with TWC. This means that at times I have to take various things offline, like the database. The goal here is to setup a sandbox that is an exact duplicate of TWC and start ripping stuff out to figure out what is causing our slow page speeds. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I have no way of predicting how long some of these things will take, so no way of predicting how long the site will be down or when I can do other steps.

    When I am done there will be an exact copy of TWC located at sandbox.twcenter.net with new registration disabled. I am then going to rip out everything custom that TWC has ever had (all our hacks, plugins, skins, everything) and go back to a pure vanilla vBulletin install. Once that is done I will see what page load times are like (remember this is running on the same server so we should get a good idea of load) and start adding things back. When we find something that causes a performance issue then we will see if it can be tweaked to run faster or if it just gets nuked on the main site.

    To get all this done I decided that a few hours of site interruption today would be worth the hassle of setting up a sandbox so I don't have to take TWC down every day while we tweak something here or there.

    Customizing the sandbox will be a fairly long process since TWC has so many custom hooks, but in the end hopefully it results in a faster site. Everyone will be able to check the progress by visiting the sandbox site.

  2. #2
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar BEARDED MODERATION
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    I'm really grateful you're taking the time to solve the slowness, since it's quite difficult for us to work on our assignments, with the recent extreme loading times.
    Thank you and please keep it up GED

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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    what is causing our slow page speeds.
    One thing that comes to mind are the attachments across the forum, noteable in the hosted mod forums, and images often hosted on an external hosting site, especially images that's posted with more than 5 images in one post like these posts.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15716196
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15716812

    But there is also several attachments for mods posted around the forums. All of this will sooner or later slow down TWC, so do something about that could be beneficial for the server I think.


    Thank you for your hard work GED.
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    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Don't worry GED , take your time...I will blame you my delay for my next faction preview!
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    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
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  5. #5
    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    One thing that comes to mind are the attachments across the forum, noteable in the hosted mod forums, and images often hosted on an external hosting site, especially images that's posted with more than 5 images in one post like these posts.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15716196
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15716812
    Those file sizes are ridiculous. 1.5 megs for each one when they should be 200k. Not much I can do about them though. Its a hotlink to an image hosting site. I cant prevent people from using img tags. Actually I could, but its not good for the site which means I cant. And I cant control the file size that someone hotlinks to.

    The best thing to do when you find stuff like that is to let the poster know that isn't cool. Tell them to edit those pics down to a reasonable size, and be mindful of the fact not everyone is on a fast connection. If I was on a 56k trying to view that page I would hang myself. When I was doing serious modding and posting lots of images I went out of my way to let people know the thread was IMAGE HEAVY and to get the pics as small as possible. Like in this example from 12 years ago.

    Man does that make me feel old. Linking to a post I made 12 years ago is crazy.


    But there is also several attachments for mods posted around the forums. All of this will sooner or later slow down TWC, so do something about that could be beneficial for the server I think.
    The attachments are not downloaded as part of the page view, like the images above are. Its an extra php call to show the attachment, and if its an image its a bit of processing to show a thumbnail.

    Where we are spending our time (I think) is in processing not in downloading. Once the page is generated I get them pretty fast. You can see (at least I think you can) at the bottom of every page it says "Page generated in 5.4 seconds". That means it spent 5.4 seconds being processed. Unacceptable.

  6. #6
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Even if you want to show many screenshot of your mod, you can use spoilers.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...5#post15778215

    And i use generally steam screenshots (always jpg format).
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; April 25, 2019 at 06:02 PM.
    Christ was crucified, Socrates was poisoned, Phidias was accused of theft - it is almost an honor to be abused by contemporaries.

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Wee bit of trivia, this page evidently took just under 5 seconds.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    Those file sizes are ridiculous. 1.5 megs for each one when they should be 200k. Not much I can do about them though. Its a hotlink to an image hosting site. I cant prevent people from using img tags. Actually I could, but its not good for the site which means I cant. And I cant control the file size that someone hotlinks to.
    I think you can do something about it, but some people won't like it.

    What I suggest is to restrict the number of images in a post to be max 3-5 and only the .jpg format is allowed at least for those images in attachments in a post.

    I also think it is possible to only accept .jpg images in the IMG BBCode, but I am not entirely sure about that perhaps Squid knows or there is a plugin available to handle images.

    However, those posts I linked are not the only thing that can slow down TWC, because there is stuff on TWC Download that makes it even worse than it already is.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=4277 (some of the jpg pictures are larger than 200 Kb, which I think is acceptable)

    But those jpg pictures is an exception, because I know there a mod or two on TWC Download that has huge pictures and I bet those pictures are not jpg, instead the pictures I am referring to are png.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    The best thing to do when you find stuff like that is to let the poster know that isn't cool. Tell them to edit those pics down to a reasonable size, and be mindful of the fact not everyone is on a fast connection. If I was on a 56k trying to view that page I would hang myself. When I was doing serious modding and posting lots of images I went out of my way to let people know the thread was IMAGE HEAVY and to get the pics as small as possible. Like in this example from 12 years ago.

    Man does that make me feel old. Linking to a post I made 12 years ago is crazy.
    I think that would require a new rule or something in the ToS that could turn things into the right track and that's to speed up TWC.

    I know what you mean when linking to old stuff.
    Under patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader.

  9. #9
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar BEARDED MODERATION
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    The best thing to do when you find stuff like that is to let the poster know that isn't cool. Tell them to edit those pics down to a reasonable size, and be mindful of the fact not everyone is on a fast connection.
    Don't tell me. I'm doing it every day

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodia_Metelli View Post
    Even if you want to show many screenshot of your mod, you can use spoilers.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...5#post15778215

    And i use generally steam screenshots.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Wee bit of trivia, this page evidently took just under 5 seconds.
    Maybe for you. 9/10 people having all around slowness with edits, posting, merging, messaging, etc
    Our everyday maintenance (Staff work) is very much burdened from increased loading times. We don't have the luxury to waste 30 minutes (for example) every day waiting

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I think you can do something about it, but some people won't like it.

    What I suggest is to restrict the number of images in a post to be max 3-5 and only the .jpg format is allowed at least for those images in attachments in a post.

    I also think it is possible to only accept .jpg images in the IMG BBCode, but I am not entirely sure about that perhaps Squid knows or there is a plugin available to handle images.

    However, those posts I linked are not the only thing that can slow down TWC, because there is stuff on TWC Download that makes it even worse than it already is.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=4277 (some of the jpg pictures are larger than 200 Kb, which I think is acceptable)

    But those jpg pictures is an exception, because I know there a mod or two on TWC Download that has huge pictures and I bet those pictures are not jpg, instead the pictures I am referring to are png.
    Plus one. I'm constantly fixing pics without spoilers etc and so to speed up our loading times even just a bit.
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; April 25, 2019 at 04:36 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Greek Strategos♔ View Post
    Maybe for you. 9/10 people having all around slowness with edits, posting, merging, messaging, etc
    Our everyday maintenance (Staff) work is very much burdened from extra loading times
    On the contrary, the practical result is a 10 second wait (dear god, I almost wrote 10 minutes here). 5 seconds is an objective statement of the forum software itself I picked up from the bottom of the page, which incidentally went to 5.3 seconds this last time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I think you can do something about it, but some people won't like it.

    What I suggest is to restrict the number of images in a post to be max 3-5 and only the .jpg format is allowed at least for those images in attachments in a post.

    I also think it is possible to only accept .jpg images in the IMG BBCode, but I am not entirely sure about that perhaps Squid knows or there is a plugin available to handle images.
    I would caution you against the proverbial nuclear option of suddenly only accepting certain things, as there are plenty of resources on the board that already stand as testament to the information lost from the internet aging and things breaking as a result. Do this and you could invalidate plenty of AARs and other things that may depend on oversized images, thus reducing the usefulness of the site as old but viable works become dismantled from new thinking and technical decisions.

    I'd start with trying to see how the platform can be made more efficient and with promoting a new philosophy of using only what is needed as far as image space goes.

  11. #11
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    After I posted my previous post I came to think of something that the old BSF forum had and doing that really speed up the forum considerably.

    What Bethesda did at that time was to disallow pictures to be shown as pictures are shown in posts on TWC, instead they allow unlimited links (URL only) for pictures and links to other stuff e.g videos, music, downloads etc.

    Another thing that Bethesda also did was to have a post limit of 200 posts for a thread, just to prevent the server to slow down and that helped.

    So, why not doing the same thing here as Bethesda did on the old BSF forum.

    only URL links is allowed (here is a thread with a lot of links to pictures and click on the links at the top to show them)
    post limit for picture threads, perhaps have a post limit for video threads too
    max 5 jpg pictures is allowed for one post and only the jpg format is allowed across the whole forum
    Under patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Defaulting to URL for images over a certain size sounds fairly unobtrusive. However, if there are only links allowed, I'd strongly oppose an effort to also implement tiny post limits, which would surely intrude upon existing threads and make a mess out of thread quantity. If there is a max of images, I would not support also removing the perfectly viable web formats of png and others that can be useful. This would, among other things, kill the point of the Content Staff summary gif that received positive reviews. If your ideas stack and aren't simply a list of potential things to look into, then I think you will cause more harm than good to the site. A slow site I consider preferable to one that steadily loses its basic functionality in an era when boards like these are already not in style.

    Also, 200 posts? Does this forum really render entire threads all at once as compared to page by page, thus ensuring more than 200 posts in a thread probably aren't going to be rendered at a given time anyways?

  13. #13
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar BEARDED MODERATION
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    On the contrary, the practical result is a 10 second wait (dear god, I almost wrote 10 minutes here). 5 seconds is an objective statement of the forum software itself I picked up from the bottom of the page, which incidentally went to 5.3 seconds this last time.
    Well, I'm sure you know that not everyone has access to ultra fast speeds. So the actual loading-browisng speed may vary. Plus many people are browsing with tablets or smartphones using Data.
    Our job here is to provide the best experience we can,to all of our users. That's our first priority, plus to save valuable for us time. That's why GED and our Techs are trying to solve this and we support them 100%.

    Also you can be sure that we want the best for the Forum (most of us are here since 2008 or before) so I'm positive we'll find a good solution or at least the most efficient one
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; April 25, 2019 at 05:24 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Greek Strategos♔ View Post
    Well, I'm sure you know that not everyone has access to ultra fast speeds. So the actual loading-browisng speed may vary. Plus many people are browsing from tablets or smartphones using Data.
    Our job here is to provide the best experience we can,to all of our users. That's our first priority, plus to save valuable for us time. That's why GED and our Techs are trying to solve this and we support them 100%.
    How long are your page speeds? Note that my speed at the very best of days is 2mbps. I just got off a 150kbps connection. Do not try to tell me about the privilege of super fast internet. I've lived the dialup life and I used the site regularly when I was on 150kbps. I regret the bit of trivia in the first place that I thought was a natural continuation of Ged's suggestion to look at the speed as determined at the bottom of the page. Obviously, to get on the user's end takes twice as long.

    Anyways.

    I went to a category page, this one to be exact, plus a few others. The original test was roughly 5 seconds on the mark up to 5.3, and going into a warhammer board listing threads, the time was 5.5 seconds. Went back to the linked board to get 4.9 seconds

    Modding badge competition thread, 5.1 seconds.

    Random Gigantus thread, 5 seconds.

    The videos thread, 5 seconds nearly on the mark as above.

    I went to the index and received 6 seconds from the server. Another reload and we had a whopping 9.2 seconds on the server, though my reception was about the same as before and everywhere else.

    Size averages 10mb in all above cases.

    Before we neuter the site's functionality, may I suggest we first look into making server side loading reduced in the first place via the original stream of suggestions, since the numbers the board reports are clearly comparable regardless of what ends up on the page assuming the load time on the bottom is marginally accurate? My performance going across any of these pages plus running around my account of all things was reliably in the 10-15 second loading range. Something's up and if it's images, apparently images are tanking performance as a whole, including the disproportionate index page load.

    Edits also seem to be disproportionately quite slow, as I discovered now for the third time and likely a fourth as I submit this edit.

  15. #15
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar BEARDED MODERATION
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Well, that's why I said that I'm sure you know about different speeds.
    My loading times are usually above 10 close to 15 seconds, but when I'm editing or moving, merging posts etc I'm closer to 25 or higher. Especially when the forum is acting out, then we're talking about 30 seconds (the least) for each edit.
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; April 25, 2019 at 05:39 PM.

  16. #16
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    After I posted my previous post I came to think of something that the old BSF forum had and doing that really speed up the forum considerably.

    What Bethesda did at that time was to disallow pictures to be shown as pictures are shown in posts on TWC, instead they allow unlimited links (URL only) for pictures and links to other stuff e.g videos, music, downloads etc.

    Another thing that Bethesda also did was to have a post limit of 200 posts for a thread, just to prevent the server to slow down and that helped.

    So, why not doing the same thing here as Bethesda did on the old BSF forum.

    only URL links is allowed (here is a thread with a lot of links to pictures and click on the links at the top to show them)
    post limit for picture threads, perhaps have a post limit for video threads too
    max 5 jpg pictures is allowed for one post and only the jpg format is allowed across the whole forum
    If this would be implemented here, i would not waste my time with releasing a mod here. Nobody will click links to look at pictures from other sites , which means having for every picture additional loading times.

    The site may be faster, but nobody will visit the mod threads anymore, if you can easier get visual infos about mods at steam.

    I for example know Nexus and have an forced account there, but i use it only to download one mod per year, which i have seeked and found via google search for Skyrim. The rest of Nexus is complete uninteresting for me. The best way to lose people, is to force them to something.

    Such an implementation would be the last nail in the coffin of TWC.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; April 25, 2019 at 06:11 PM.
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  17. #17
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Defaulting to URL for images over a certain size sounds fairly unobtrusive. However, if there are only links allowed, I'd strongly oppose an effort to also implement tiny post limits, which would surely intrude upon existing threads and make a mess out of thread quantity. If there is a max of images, I would not support also removing the perfectly viable web formats of png and others that can be useful. This would, among other things, kill the point of the Content Staff summary gif that received positive reviews. If your ideas stack and aren't simply a list of potential things to look into, then I think you will cause more harm than good to the site. A slow site I consider preferable to one that steadily loses its basic functionality in an era when boards like these are already not in style.

    Also, 200 posts? Does this forum really render entire threads all at once as compared to page by page, thus ensuring more than 200 posts in a thread probably aren't going to be rendered at a given time anyways?
    First, I didn't say to have a post limit of 200 posts here right. What I did say what Bethesda did back then when the old BSF forum was still open, now closed unfortunately.

    Also, I do think a limit of posts for video threads is a necessary evil, because if you browse the first music video thread on TAL (not so slow today as it were before the changes took place) you will soon discover that the server is having a heavy load of all those embedded YouTube videos.

    In fact, before the number of videos that was allowed to be embedded into a post was reduced from 5 to 3 I think. The whole thread was so slow it would take ages before you have clicked through 10 forum pages or so.

    Do you really want the same thing happen here? I don't think so.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Greek Strategos♔ View Post
    Well, that's why I said that I'm sure you know about different speeds.
    My loading times are usually above 10 close to 15 seconds, but when I'm editing or moving, merging posts etc I'm closer to 25 or higher. Especially when the forum is acting out, then we're talking about 30 seconds (the least) for each edit.
    Case in point in establishing priorities - this is immediately relevant, has wide measurable symptoms and negatively affects site usability in all levels; and it seems to be independent of the outside media brought here unless the outside media is putting massive global strain on editing systems in particular (?). Once this is pinned down and addressed, we can look to the issue of media threads and decide from there if we want to address it specifically. Keep in mind that should this be resolved, the server will have a strong net gain, as well as the user outside of media threads. Said threads do not represent a substantial portion of the TWC experience and I've yet to see evidence that what is quoted below is such a major priority (that would, ultimately, reduce the functionality of those threads) to reduce the site's capacity to be useful on the whole for a limited portion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    First, I didn't say to have a post limit of 200 posts here right. What I did say what Bethesda did back then when the old BSF forum was still open, now closed unfortunately.

    Also, I do think a limit of posts for video threads is a necessary evil, because if you browse the first music video thread on TAL (not so slow today as it were before the changes took place) you will soon discover that the server is having a heavy load of all those embedded YouTube videos.

    In fact, before the number of videos that was allowed to be embedded into a post was reduced from 5 to 3 I think. The whole thread was so slow it would take ages before you have clicked through 10 forum pages or so.

    Do you really want the same thing happen here? I don't think so.
    You don't need to do the disclaimer thing as we are speaking in hypotheticals and I am asking what particular order you would implement things. On that basis we can discuss necessity in relation to the solutions we're brainstorming at the moment.

    What happened on TAL I am not interested in unless you can produce a similar case on TWC. We can observe and manage such threads accordingly if they happen, but I do not entertain this sort of hypothetical when it is not backed by an experience on the site unless you seriously think that exact thing is going to happen here. Look at the videos thread I linked above and then compare it with TAL's experience to produce an argument for what is likely to occur and what would need to occur and what is most likely to be intensive in the video linking sphere. Can you tell me that the video thread I linked here is processing videos in all their entirety across the entire thread, or does it do this on a page by page basis, rendering, in my humble opinion, post limits worthless when it already operates on a need to access basis?
    Last edited by CommodusIV; April 25, 2019 at 05:58 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    What happened on TAL I am not interested in unless you can produce a similar case on TWC.
    Let me tell you about something that happen a long time ago before you joined here and what I am talking about is this excellent tutorial that had a lot of pictures. Which happen before a system glitch caused a lot of attachments, pictures were lost for good.

    Sometimes it took too long for the server to load a page and when that happen I got a server timeout. A couple of times in fact not always, but too often and that's not good for anyone.

    Back then I had fiber optic broadband (100 Mb internet connection) and still have. Is that what you wants to have, instead of increasing the performance of the server?
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Various downtimes today

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Let me tell you about something that happen a long time ago before you joined here and what I am talking about is this excellent tutorial that had a lot of pictures. Which happen before a system glitch caused a lot of attachments, pictures were lost for good.

    Sometimes it took too long for the server to load a page and when that happen I got a server timeout. A couple of times in fact not always, but too often and that's not good for anyone.

    Back then I had fiber optic broadband (100 Mb internet connection) and still have. Is that what you wants to have, instead of increasing the performance of the server?
    Let me ask you a question. What does that have to do with prioritizing optimization efforts for the modern day?

    I'm perfectly aware of that data loss, it made my short stint in the scriptorium unapproachable due to the volume of pictures and attachments that were lost to make many of the entries borderline unusable. It is also neither here nor there when the primary issue is loading time troubles that are independent of a thread's scale of pictures and videos. You make it sound like I am prioritizing something other than performance when I am targeting a measurable performance issue when all you've raised in comparison is other platforms, history, and what-if scenarios. The inquiry for currently relevant examples that are directly related to your suggestion remains unanswered.

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