Foederatus
Wind In Total War Land Battles
Why isn't wind taken into account in land battles in any Total War game? This has always been a decisive factor in battles. (Famous example: Battle of Towton)
If implemented it would add a whole new depth of tactics to the game because defending player would have to take wind (instead of only height and forests) to choose starting position.
I would love to see a mod in Shogun 2 that implemented this
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it."
-Robert E. Lee
Citizen
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
I think there might be problem with performance. Thinks like shadows, dust, smoke are the ones of most performace affecting features. But they are purely visual. Now if you are adding wind and trajectory influence for bullets/arrows...fire spreading? That would probably require some heavy calculations. This feature would affect multiplayer a lot...
Last edited by Daruwind; April 24, 2019 at 04:55 PM.
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
Yeah, we have wind affecting naval battles movement. But land battles, specially projectiles, would be very complex i think.
Citizen
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
Yeah, exactly. Like in Empire/Napoleon naval battles the wind is just a constant. Across whole map and not affecting the projectiles, only movement of 40 ships at top.
I like the idea. But imagine something like Shogun 2..6x2=12 units of archers with fire arrows..12x60=720 projectiles. On contrary, 720 more men..thatīs only like +3-5 units on extra large setting. Not sure if arrows are harder then units to compute.. :-)
my horse for a unicode
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
I'm not sure CA is at the level of performance or tech to pull this off, and such a thing would probably need to feature in a new entry that puts a legitimate overhaul into the dynamics of battle. Probably at the cost of the raw scale that people want.
I'm not sure how complicated the concept would be to implement on either plane, but thinking about it, I'm not optimistic that it is merely a matter of modding even going back to medieval 2's flexibility.
It may have been historically a factor, but generally speaking these days, its presence as a legitimate influence is not missed and a can of worms that could be problematic in light of other things to resolve, such as the AI's basic competence.
With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
Spoiler for wait what dragons?:
She-Hulk wills it!
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
If memory serves, wind is an actual factor considered in both STW1- and MTW1-battles... So, the question here should rather be "Why isn't wind taken into account in land battles in any Total War game after MTW1?" ...And one possible answer (among others) could be that the TW-games (drastically) shifted their focus from active war, battles and field-command simulations to overall strategy, management and empire-building instead (in which battles in general play only a secondary part, unlike the first two TW-games). Just saying!Originally Posted by betoelbicho
- A
(BTW, Jimi Hendrix rules! I just had too say it!)
my horse for a unicode
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
Considered in S1 and M1 how, and what exchanges were made between them and later entries? I have to imagine they didn't simply neuter battles entirely in later entries, and I never found wind to be a real effect if my memory serves correctly. It very well may not.If memory serves, wind is an actual factor considered in both STW1- and MTW1-battles... So, the question here should rather be "Why isn't wind taken into account in land battles in any Total War game after MTW1?" ...And one possible answer (among others) could be that the TW-games (drastically) shifted their focus from active war, battles and field-command simulations to overall strategy, management and empire-building instead (in which battles in general play only a secondary part, unlike the first two TW-games). Just saying!
- A
(BTW, Jimi Hendrix rules! I just had too say it!)
With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
Spoiler for wait what dragons?:
Citizen
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
Me too! Like of course there were always aspect of weather ...like gun powder unit was not working in slightest of rain or in winter soldiers were quickly ineffective in dark. Snow, rainy....
Speaking of MTW I found:
https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Mediev...attles#Weather
Which by all means sounds very much the same as in any TW so far...Or was there specifically windy weather? I would even believe it, it is long time I played first shogun...still implementation of all TW games is fairly similar. Fatigue, gunpower, fire arrows,.....Weather
Weather can be an important factor for any given battle. In Medieval: Total War, the attacker determines the day of the attack, and thus the weather for that battle.
One of the most common concerns is rainy weather. In rainy weather the range and accuracy of missile units (such as archers, mounted archers, longbowmen, crossbowmen, etc.) are reduced. In a battle where ranged troops might be a decisive force, rainy weather may be to the defender's detriment and to the attacker's advantage.
Weather conditions can also change throughout the day. For instance, a day may start clear and become progressively more rainy, or inversely, start as a rainy day and clear up as the day goes on.
And searching for Shogun and Rome is showing very similar hints....I was unable to find exact numbers,effects but overall the weather efects sounds very similar across all games as I can remember. Only exception is Warhammer, where are no weather intentionally effects.
Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
Not exactly...Modding M2TW/Kingdoms weather does not actually affects any statistic of any unit. Not even the horse or human pase speed!!!
Weather in the TW games after MTW are more easthetic feature adding only a visual effect to the attempt to see a realistic battlefield.
Even night battles do not change arrows accuracy. No matter they offer a visual greateness in to players aspect. Night battles DO have, though , affect in autoresolve but no further than this.
TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
read this to avoid misunderstandings.
IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.
She-Hulk wills it!
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
Weather in MTW-battles have 4 parameters: (for reference see... "?\?\Medieval - Total War\Battle\Weather.txt")
A). Wind
B). Rain
C). Fog
D). Temperature
All these somehow generates various and separate effects in MTW-battles. Wind affect the accuracy of ranged units and projectiles somehow (rain do too, btw). How, exactly? I don't know, as I don't have the exact formula for it. All I know is that wind is an active parameter in MTW-battles and that it somehow influences unit-accuracy and possibly other things beyond that... The same goes for STW (somehow)...
- A
Reborn Old Timer
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
No snow or desert?
Under patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader.
How to make Morrowind less buggy for new players - Of course every player may find it useful.
Citizen
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
Yeah, but that is the same for all TWs....
Rain...lowering accuracy + preventing flaming arrows and impacting gunpowder units
Fog...lowering spotting distance, line of sight
Temperature affecting some units..like heat resistant troops donīt fatique as quickly as northsmen.
But overall that is no active mechanics at all for weather. Even if the weather is dynamic. Like all Bow units..or range units has some kind of accuracy. And it is usually modified by unit rank, general, technologies....weather is in this situation only one modifier in whole range. Same with windy weather, at best it is influencing range and accuracy but only as far as statistics of units go.
Active ability would be something like windy weather helping spread the fire, rain extinquishing fire or wind dynamically changing flypath of arrows but question is, would that be even fun? Extending/shortening range, influencing accuracy that is playable but imagine if you are using archers. There are two options, either game shows me by shifted range where am I shooting...then basically nothing change, I would just reposition archers to be effective even if it means shooting around 90degree to side or whatever... or I will be confused why my archers well in range are not hitting target. On plain sight. Like if you are shooting and some kind of object is preventing arrows to hit targets, good but if my arrows are changing path mid air?
my horse for a unicode
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
How does that pair up with this?
Who, then, is correct? Because these statements definately don't work with each other if we're asserting the original medieval had tangible effects on accuracy and the like. If accuracy changes and other modifiers are 'only one modifier in the whole range', well, isn't that accurate? More effects, such as fire spread, extinguishing and flypath changes would be appreciated though, and yes, they are not represented in any total war. But there are three levels going on here; the nothing asserted for Medieval 2, the something asserted for Medieval 1 (accuracy and such), and the active changes that you suggest.
Still, arrow accuracy changes is at least an effort to represent wind shifting arrows around, as on a theoretical level it's completely correct - wind that affects arrows will make them less accurate. It would be nice to have a true visual representation, but again, I'm not sure CA will figure that one out for a while.
With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
Spoiler for wait what dragons?:
Citizen
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
Iīm speaking about TW overall. Not focusing on particular games and particular weather effect...but loooking at whole CA depiction of weather in general. TW are game of statistics...unit statistics, ranks, general modifiers, active abilities/(de)buffs, technologies, events...weather.
I played Shogun long time ago and with two days of googling, I cannot find exact table with effects and stat modifiers or anything related to the first games. Only thing that I remember is gunpowder units having problems in rain and not working at all and that I was told the night is lowering effectivity of my troops.
But I definitely know the newer games are adding some weather related effects. Rain is affecting bow units! Fog is lowering spotting range! Quicker fatique in snow....But definitely rain is preventing me from using fire arrows! In ToB because I just played it...It is definitely not just visual. For example in Shogun 2 night battles were preventing reinforcement and if enemy general has not Night Fighter trail, army will suffer -1 morale penalty. I would not be surprised if different TW have different subtle effects. Because those things very often get lost among many others modifiers....like the biggest chance you can notice is the visual aspect or for example missing fire arrows. You usually donīt notice fatique differencies or -1 morale
But getting back to Shogun, R1 and Med1/2. This is not my best area of expertise...
Last edited by Daruwind; April 30, 2019 at 04:33 PM.
Citizen
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co..._too_close_to/
looks like CA is adding more combat enviromental effects to 3K, snow is slowing infantry by 25% speed and many others.
I think this is basically what we would like to see in future. Not just constant effects over whole map but dynamic effects, active effects, change of weather, localized effects basically like hiding works but with various bonuses/penalties...like heavy infantry,cavalry moving slowly in marshes etc...
I know we are here discussing wind. But that is one part of enviroment. Weather, terrain, fire and other dynamic features.
Last edited by Daruwind; May 01, 2019 at 02:03 AM.
Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
The only factors that have any affects on moralle and fatique of units in M2TW/Kingdoms are Snow and Desert.
That means that Arabic units get tired faster or punic faster in snow and Vikings get tired or punic faster in desert.
That's all.
In Rome II and Attila the units have attrition affects (loosing soldiers) in hostile enviroments.
But their arrows do not miss if they fight durring a storm for example neither their horses lose speed in the mud created by rain.
TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
read this to avoid misunderstandings.
IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.
She-Hulk wills it!
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
I'll start with Leo's post...
Snow is determined by season (summer/winter in MTW), terrain-type (lush/temperate/arid/rock/sand) and temperature. Certain terrain-types can't have snow regardless, and that goes for season too. Obviously, temperature need s to be cold enough as well. As a result, snow is relatively uncommon in MTW. As for desert - that is determined by terrain-type... There is also a "sand"-parameter as a simple yes or no alternative...
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In short, this is not true... If that claim were true then the previous remarks (in previous posts) made here would not only be false, but also totally unnecessary as well. And neither of these two circumstances hold up to reality...
Another fallacy... Weather is rather dynamic in MTW, and as a result so are the effects and penalties of that weather on the troops that are in it during battle. Naturally, this includes wind as well, which is the focus here. If the winds are hard, then penalty-levels on accuracy increases. If the wind is soft, then the penalty-levels are lowered. If there is no wind at all - then there are no penalties... The more penalties a ranged unit acquires due to weather - the less effective it is and thus less relevant it becomes in battle due to decreased levels of impact/damage it can make on the enemy. A pure archer army will be nowhere as effective in a storm as a pure infantry army would be - and that is explicitly due to weather - wind especially, possibly rain as well, on top (that means yet another penalty btw. And rain is also dynamic in MTW).
What else would wind influence, if not that? What else is relevant (in battle)?
MTW-weather and its effects may very well fail to live up to your personal ideas and/or wishes in terms of effects and/or mechanics - but it is still by definition dynamic as it is not static. If it is not static, and it influences the troops in that weather - then it is also by definition an active factor. Secondly, changing fly paths (on arrows) boils down to accuracy anyhow - and thus that is already covered... Visually changing fly path is just sheer cosmetics if the accuracy-aspects are already covered and considered, as is the case of MTW.
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Well, let me put it like this...
If it is MTW, it is usually me, I know that game better then most - I don't just play it, I work with it (since 2006)... If it is MTW2, it is usually AnthoniusII, because he knows that game better then most people, for the very same reasons as with me... If it is RTW2, I would put my faith in Daruwind, as that is the game he works on (right?), thus it is very likely that he will be correct about that game. If you work with a single game long enough - you get to know it - and that in ways that ordinary gamers/players don't... As simple as that. So, I think it would be AnthoniusII who is correct in that particular case. After all, he has worked with MTW2 for as long as I can remember - so he probably know all such stuff quite well. I have little reason to believe otherwise...
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I think you are doing a mistake by bunching up all TW-games together, in general... Why? Well, we have already established that they are different, not just in general but distinctly in battle-mode. Thus such an approach is actively disregarding the fact that these games are NOT the same. And, if we disregard such a relevant factors, we are oversimplifying things to a fault...
Ummm... "Not just constant effects over whole map but dynamic effects, active effects, change of weather, ..." - already exists in MTW. As for slowed units, in MTW that will only happen whenever a unit is moving up a hill or something like it. That could be improved upon somewhat agreed - like trigger a slowed-penalty in woods for instance (is that done in later games? Like Warhammer? I don't remember...) - but overall it is a small and rather secondary matter, in a battle. As for marshes - no sensible general would attack thru or even deploy their troops in the middle of a marsh, so there is not much actual need for such a feature. But all this is drifting ever further from "wind" - which was and still is the actual subject here.
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As long as (land) battles essentially continues to play only a secondary part in TW-games (by design) - I think one can hardly anticipate much serious changes or news in such regards in future TW-games. It does strikes me as unrealistic... Much in the same way it is unrealistic to expect a famous movie-director to concentrate his effort on a side-story and grand sets rather then the main story and protagonists of the movie - in short, it is unlikely to happen. The same thing goes for TW-games... If I happen to end up wrong about that, ok so be it - but I will believe it, when I (actually) see it...
- A
Last edited by Axalon; May 04, 2019 at 04:11 PM. Reason: update...
Citizen
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
@Axalon
I looking at things from different point of view, therefore i have no problems with what you wrotebecause you are mostly focusing on MTW and wind and iīm not. :-)
heat fatigue, cold fatigue, sea sickness, snow, rain, darkness, fog, dense forest, terrain....See for me terrain and weather, whole enviroment are connected things. You can have rain in forest or rain on grassland or sunny day on both. but only combination of sunny day and forest sounds like prime forest fire due to fire arrows.Another fallacy... Weather is rather dynamic in MTW, and as a result so are the effects and penalties of that weather on the troops that are in it during battle. Naturally, this includes wind as well, which is the focus here. If the winds are hard, then penalty-levels on accuracy increases. If the wind is soft, then the penalty-levels are lowered. If there is no wind at all - then there are no penalties... The more penalties a ranged unit acquires due to weather - the less effective it is and thus less relevant it becomes in battle due to decreased levels of impact/damage it can make on the enemy. A pure archer army will be nowhere as effective in a storm as a pure infantry army would be - and that is explicitly due to weather - wind especially, possibly rain as well, on top (that means yet another penalty btw. And rain is also dynamic in MTW).
What else would wind influence, if not that? What else is relevant (in battle)?
I agree with you but there is possibly more dynamic "parts" of the problem. You are speaking about wind to unit effect. If the wind is changing so is the penalty for range/accuracy. But the game is at best simplification and approximation of reality. At first, how many direction does the wind have? Any vector on battle map? Or letīs say 4...8 main possible vectors? And how many intensity levels are there? Can it be any value or is there a few preset levels? like mild/windy/strong wind...so the corresponding unit penalty is also coming only in three levels? And is the penalty general for range/accuracy no matter what direction the wind is blowing? ...What I want to demonstrate is, the system is really dynamic but it is just approximation. Good enough even for me. Only similar relation what I noticed is in Empire/Napoleon that ships are sailing faster with wind than against it.MTW-weather and its effects may very well fail to live up to your personal ideas and/or wishes in terms of effects and/or mechanics - but it is still by definition dynamic as it is not static. If it is not static, and it influences the troops in that weather - then it is also by definition an active factor.
Secondly, changing fly paths (on arrows) boils down to accuracy anyhow - and thus that is already covered... Visually changing fly path is just sheer cosmetics if the accuracy-aspects are already covered and considered, as is the case of MTW.
...Ummm... "Not just constant effects over whole map but dynamic effects, active effects, change of weather, ..." - already exists in MTW. As for slowed units, in MTW that will only happen whenever a unit is moving up a hill or something like it. That could be improved upon somewhat agreed - like trigger a slowed-penalty in woods for instance (is that done in later games? Like Warhammer? I don't remember...) - but overall it is a small and rather secondary matter, in a battle.
Secondly. Arrows and wind. The wind is not affecting projectile itself, the wind is just applying preset penalty/bonus to accuracy. If you are not seeing unit/active effects, you cannot distinquish if the penalty is for example spell,aura,skills,ranks or wind. Because they all are influencing the very same accuracy....I donīt ask to arrows doing u-turns in strong wind but depiction that range/accuracy are affected by wind (intesity) is again good enough approximation and simplification for game and good game translation of physics. But true simulation would be if archer fires and games would do calculate the affect on the arrow fly path and calculate hitspot. Good archer can take into account wind but will be unable to shoot against too strong wind.
I looking at things from different point of view, therefore i have no problems with what you wrote. About dynamic part of thing, okey letīs talk about weather. For you, the "dynamic" wind. For me, the dynamic system would be if during battle the wind intensity could vary not only as function of time but even as function of place (hilltop, valleys, cliffs vs plain) and if the wind intensity was spectrum with any possible value not just a few distinct values with according penalties/bonuses for range,accuracy.
If the wind is dynamically during battle changing vector and intesity and this is for example affecting spread of fire, range/accuracy..this is trully dynamic system.
Because the topic is not wind in one particular game? I have no problem with focusing on particular title but then of course my generalistic altitude is not bullet proof as each game is little different.. Iīm more interested in overall depiction as I would like to see progress into future. If one game in history is depiction particular weather or whole weather more detaily and others not, then it is exception. I would like to see trend and common weather/enviroment system and changes for the future. That was my point.I think you are doing a mistake by bunching up all TW-games together, in general... Why? Well, we have already established that they are different, not just in general but distinctly in battle-mode. Thus such an approach is actively disregarding the fact that these games are NOT the same. And, if we disregard such a relevant factors, we are oversimplifying things to a fault...
Marshes...or any other difficult terrain. Point is, warfare is not chess. In reality you are not waiting for fair conditions for both sides to have some kind of fair duel between knights to find out who is the better one under shiny sun on sunny grassland. No, in reality you try to use enemy dumb mistakes or sometimes you are caught in mistakes...I agree with you that I would also choose rather my own battleground...like blasting planet from orbit via Death Star ..easy peasy good game no loses at all. But in reality there were a lot battle where enviroment or even weather played crucial role. Sometimes you are in time press, sometimes you have to work with terrain you are given..because you cannot move elsewhere. See lower examples. Terrain as weather can be easily important limiting factor but. BUT question is, if you one being affected by it or If you can use it for your advantage. ;-)As for marshes - no sensible general would attack thru or even deploy their troops in the middle of a marsh, so there is not much actual need for such a feature. But all this is drifting ever further from "wind" - which was and still is the actual subject here.
Battle of Mohac...yup marshes, errors....happen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moh%C3%A1cs
Waterloo and weather...mud, rain..The Hungarian war council – without waiting for reinforcements from Croatia and Transylvania only a few days march away – made a serious tactical error by choosing the battlefield near Mohács, an open but uneven plain with some swampy marshes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt
Lake Trasimene...fog, fog and total brutal ambush at lake side...because spotting distance and scouting is important factor and triggering ambushes too.The French pursued Wellington's retreating army to Waterloo; however, due to bad weather, mud and the head start that Napoleon's tardy advance had allowed Wellington,...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Trasimene
Siege of Vienna...rains, more rains..because fatigue is real thing and siege attrition as well...Once all the Romans had at last marched through the foggy, narrow defile and entered the plains skirting the lake, trumpets were blown, signalling the general attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna
Pashendale...because you can move whole western front...to better ground right? Come on guys, letīs fight over there...Mud is badMany of his troops arrived at Vienna in a poor state of health after the tribulations of a long march through the thick of the European wet season.....More rain fell on 11 October, and with the Ottomans failing to make any breaches in the walls, the prospects for victory began to fade rapidly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Passchendaele
PS: I think I missed some points, I got lost in my writing...I will try to return to it this week. :-)the effect of the exceptional weather, the decision to continue the offensive in October
Last edited by Daruwind; May 10, 2019 at 01:12 PM.
Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
@Daruwind
While you are right about battles can not always done in perfect conditions, TW games are TOO FAR to add weather features as factors that determine a battle's result.
Even in Rome II and Attila in heavy rain cavalry doesn't getting any slower, rain does not take out fired arrows , soldiers do not get stuck in the mudd etc...
What Axalon was trying to say is that early TW games had MORE unique features -weather condition affects included - than the newst ones. More ...not everyone.
Attrition that is standard in Rome II and Attila (but only for the besieged ones while the besiegers had to have that too) it can be scripted in games older then them like M2TW.
In fact TGC has prisoners exchange - a standard feature of MTW 1 - , exiled troops, local uprissings and major civil wars.
Another vwonderfull feature of MTW1 that never re-apeared was that you could give a region's title or a military rank to a general of your will (attila has something similar but not same) and if that honorable man was captured he could bought back with ransoms. While Rome I was a REVOLUTION in many aspects , previus TW games had some realistic features that never apeared again , who knows why!
TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
read this to avoid misunderstandings.
IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.
Reborn Old Timer
Re: Wind In Total War Land Battles
You're right that feature never appeared, but when using mods then it appreared.
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...on-II-Released
Ransom also exist M2TW, if I am not mistaken.
Under patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader.
How to make Morrowind less buggy for new players - Of course every player may find it useful.
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