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Thread: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

  1. #101
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Washington, USA

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    It has always felt strange to me to use Hoplites later in my campaigns, as I believe they were fazed out by the time of the thureos and thorax periods. Yes they make sense for a civil guard, or citizen soldier late in the game, but I don't use the more elite versions once I hit Thureos. I like to be able to transform these more elite, professional, veteran Hoplite units later on into Thureos units so I can retain their experience and campaign history. I do this by modding my own game files to accomplish this.

    I haven't played v1.2.7 just yet so I am not familiar with the upgrade paths available now.
    Last edited by Fluke; March 02, 2021 at 03:55 PM.

  2. #102

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    I like to be able to transform these more elite, professional, veteran Hoplite units later on into Thureos units so I can retain their experience and campaign history. I do this by modding my own game files to accomplish this.
    Care to enlighten me? How do you do this?

    Actually I'd like to use your post to discuss some tenuous changes I'm making to the scripts file, particularly the population and reforms section:

    • Make Athenian Tarantine Cav pop 2 (from pop 1)
    • Keep Light Hoplites and Iph Peltasts post-reforms
    • Remove Hoplites (and others?) post-reforms
    • Add pop 3 naval units
    • Add Thorax Units? Add reform upgrade path for certain units?

    Normally I dislike modding the scripts file because I want this mod to be lightweight, in the sense of being compatible with many other mods and easy to update every patch. But the changes above are arguably justifiable enough to include in the mod going forward.

    Population Balance by Reform

    The Greek factions are severely hampered by DEI's population system. While I understand the need to balance gameplay with historical accuracy, their historical military exclusion in the real world makes them unfun in-game. My solutions to this--to adopt the Athenian Mercenary Core and strongly recommend the DEI Settler Mod--elegantly solves this problem for land units post-thureos.

    Pre-Thureos, the most precarious part of the game, the player is forced to use basic units almost as a rite of passage to reach the mid game. The tension between using pop 2 and pop 3 units is central here.

    Post-Thureos is the heart of Rome 2: this is where you create your empire and fight other major powers. Having a pop 3 frontline opens up tons of other options, from using upgraded missiles, to utilizing cavalry, to having a strong navy.

    Post-Thorax is really late game clean-up. Ideally super-powers, esp Rome, fight you for supremacy while imperium levels handicap you and risk Civil War. This is generally regarded as the worse part of the game because of how hard it is to balance. Typically you either steamroll everyone, or endless Rome stacks/political intrigues turn things into a chore.

    The HL is notably bland after this final reform. Thorax spearmen are arguably a side-grade, we gain only a new pop 1 cavalry unit and Spartan Thorax Hoplite, and everything else largely stays the same. I'm considering and am open to suggestions here. One change I'd like to make is moving the Athenian Tarantines to pop 2. While not historically accurate (good cav were pop 1) given the recent changes to tarantine cav, it seems cruel to leave our unique thorax units behind the pop 1 barrier, so moving it down to 2 seems harmless and fun.

    Right now my main concern is with the population demands of our navy. This is important because Greece is overtly a maritime power, and given the entire backbone of our naval fleet is pop 2, it quickly decimates a province's population and basically limits the amount of naval stacks the player can use, as well as precluding pop 2 units on land. I'm unsure how to solve this. Flipping the marines over to pop 3 seems going too far in the other direciton, and I would have to rename "Athenian Marines" to something generic. Alternatively I could add generic pop 3 greek marines to the roster, but with the same ship quality, so that the player has to choose between a navy with a strong invasion force (pop 2) or a navy lacking that capability (pop 3). The downside to this is that it would balloon the HL's already large naval roster.

    Reform Unit Changes

    I agree with Fluke that hoplites should be removed past Thureos as largely obsolete. I do, however, want to add Light Hoplites and Iph Peltasts post-reforms, as these are great units and its baffling why KAM removes them.

    My other two interests are to create reform paths for units, and add some fun Thorax units for the league. This is where you guys come in: I don't know how to create upgrade paths or which units I could add. I'll fire up EB2 again for ideas, and welcome any input you all have.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Washington, USA

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    Just a quick note to say I add the units I want to upgrade to the technology_unit_upgrades_tables in the db section. It is pretty simple to do once you find out where to do it.

    I'll write more tomorrow when I get some time to think over your ideas.

  4. #104

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    Not too well-read on the Greeks, but from my understanding Athenian naval forces were traditionally drawn from the lower classes, which ended up being a major social issue following their prestigious victories against the Persians. Having good-quality naval units with Class 3 pop would be a distinctly Greek thing to have. Further, there's little reason the HL wouldn't have adopted Polybian-style reforms as they grew in wealth and size, with a partial state subsidy for equipment, so having the Athenian core mercs under as Thureos/Thorax units under a different name would fit. Additionally, given Athenian population classes, having good-quality pop 2 cav is also acceptable, given that trade was just as valid for gaining the necessary income as land was, so there would be more independent landowners in the HL (roughly akin to the Roman equites class) than most other empires at the time.

    As to new Thorax units, a mixed Athens/Spartan hoplite unit drawing from Class 1 pop replacing the Spartan Thorax Hoplites and Logades as a new, combined pan-Peloponnese hoplite unit. Expensive as they would be drawn from the elites of both city states, with Athenian equipment combined with Spartan drill. Another one is a "Neokretikoi" unit of heavy Cretan archers, with upgraded armor and shield for enhanced melee capabilities, serving as an alternative to peltasts for a skirmisher. Maybe a new pike unit or some upgraded slingers?

  5. #105

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    Thank you SpardaSon21; I think that's a compelling case for pop 3 naval options. I'm also intrigued, yet wary, of your Thorax Unit suggestion: it may be beyond my skill to create a new unit. But it's food for thought.

    Fluke I was looking at EB2 last night and noticed "Iphikratous Hoplitai", which is a Thureos-like evolution to Hoplites. After testing I found I could add the Disciplined Formation (DF) to the League's current Thureos Spears. This mirrors the DF addition KAM made to the Thorax Spears, as well as nerfing the former's speed to 2. This effectively transforms the Thureos spears into hoplite-like units, and suggests the following upgrade path for our frontline:

    Hoplites (Phalanx) -> Thureos Spears (DF) -> Thorax Spears (DF)

    The only quirk here is the Thureos Spears have a whopping 4 stam, which is out of line with the others. But otherwise this may be what we're looking for; what do you think?

    Barracks Balance

    I'm also restructuring the barracks enable roster--which is extremely bottom heavy--into something more polished:

    * Barracks 1: Levy Units
    * Barracks 2: Classical Units
    * Barracks 3: Hellenistic Units
    * Barracks 4: ?

    The Barracks 4 may be the place to put some fun units, Thorax or otherwise, especially as the tech to unlock it is called Marian Reforms.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Washington, USA

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    The v1.2.7 changes are still new to me as I haven't started to play it just yet. But I used to use the v1.2.6 and earlier Thureos spears as a replacement as my main Hoplite battle line and they were able to hold even without any special formations. What balanced them as Hoplite replacements were their javelins, greater unit strength (300 vs 200) and better stamina. So I'm not sure they should also get the DF that the Thorax do in the new version.

    I also do like the argument for the pop 3 class navy from SpardaSon21.

    So glad to see you put some real thought into all of this and I am looking forward to playing with whatever you create!

  7. #107

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    Agreed on how well thought-out you're trying to be, Basilius. Have you considered teaming up with Demosthenes26 for an overall Greek resurgence? I'd be happy to help out with research and some limited skill at PFM thanks to doing my own edits from time to time.

  8. #108

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    Thanks for all the input guys. Here's the full 1.27 change-log (main link updated):

    • Reform Upgrade Paths
      • Hoplites -> Thureophoroi Hoplitai -> Throax Hoplites
      • Levy Hoplites -> Thureos Spears
      • Skirm Cav -> JavCav

    • Roster
      • Swapped in the new General Cav Unit
      • Added Spartan Thorax Swords
      • Added Tarantine Cav in place of Lonchophoro
      • Renamed Tarantine Hippeis to simply ‘Hippeis’
      • Overhauled navy to rely primarily on Greek Marines, rather than Athenian/Cretan/Rhodian. I’ve left the latter in at higher ship levels in case the player wants to use a citizen navy mid-to-late game.
      • Gave “Thureophoroi Hoplitai” the Disciplined Formation ability. If it’s overpowered, I’ll remove it.

    • Manpower Pool
      • Changed Greek Marines to pop 3
      • Changed Xystophoroi to pop 1

    • Diplomacy
      • Updated OP with additional recommended diplomacy changes via “Easy Diplomacy” mod

    • Army Traditions
      • Changed the Greek army traditions from hoplite/pike buffs to spear buffs.

    • Icon Changes
      • Thureophoroi Hoplitai now uses the Elite Perg Thureos Spears icon
      • Changed the League’s default Athenian icon

    • Settler Mod integrated into the mod entirely, sans pop 1 Settlers
      • (Dresden if you don’t like this let me know and I’ll remove it)

    • Faction Bonus
      • Buffed both the League’s faction bonus and the general Greek faction bonus.

    • (No changes to barracks recruitment: spent some time on this and there were no meaningful changes to gameplay.)
    • (Left Light Hoplites and Iph Peltasts at Pre-reform.)

    I feel pretty excited about the mod right now; I'm going to start a new play-through to test all the changes. One last item on my to-do list is the aforementioned Thorax goodies. I may study the Perg roster a bit for inspiration: it's an extremely well designed faction. Enjoy, Strategos!
    Last edited by Basilius; March 04, 2021 at 08:28 PM.

  9. #109

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    Oh, reminds me. I wouldn't mind seeing those Pergamese Thorax Peltasts show up, although ideally it would be a specifically pure Athenian thing given their use of mercenaries, especially Thracian ones. Also, I'd be careful with using the term "Iphikratous" given that his reformed troops used a short pike, longer swords, and given the time period, almost certainly the light pelte shield. "Neoiphikratous" might be a better term since they're similar yet different, as well as later in era.

  10. #110

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    Oh, good point. I'll simply change them to "Thureophoroi Hoplitai."
    Last edited by Basilius; March 04, 2021 at 08:21 PM. Reason: More decisive.

  11. #111

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    03/10/21 Changelog (Main Link Updated):

    • Replaced Disciplined Formation with Phalanx on Thureos/Thorax Hoplites
    • Buffed Thorax Hoplites and changed their unit card
    • Removed Thureos Swords from roster
    Last edited by Basilius; March 10, 2021 at 04:08 PM.

  12. #112

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    Updated for 1.2.7b. Added Epilektoi Thorax Spears, a la Pergamon except they're pop 2.

    Very happy with the state of the mod. I'm in a campaign right now, but after finishing it I may post to Steam and try and self-advertise on various forums. Feels like a proper successor to the KH from EB 1 & 2.

  13. #113

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] The Hellenic League

    Sounds great! anything that brings some more diversity and replayability is appreciated

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