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Thread: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

  1. #21
    La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham's Avatar Artifex♔Duffer♔Civitate
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    I know what the solution might be, have a Council of War within the Modding Staff structure?
    I mean instead of the "Roll Call" call it The Council of War...just an idea!

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  2. #22
    Van Zandt's Avatar pulvis et umbra
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham View Post
    I know what the solution might be, have a Council of War within the Modding Staff structure?
    I mean instead of the "Roll Call" call it The Council of War...just an idea!
    The Council of War would be a separate group, with their own dedicated forum and some perks like access to the modding staff and perhaps an activity award.

  3. #23
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    So a pseudo-staff branch with access to the staff forums, but neither proper oversight of behaviour by Hex/Directors nor any committment to actually implement the wonderful ideas they "advise" Modding Staff with. Great. The only people this would be viable for would be modders whose behaviour is not sufficiently impeccable to join Modding staff or who cannot be asked to take any responsibility themselves but who still want some of the bling and influence. Everybody else can simply join Modding Staff (if they have the time) or just present their ideas in the Q&S where Modding Staff can see them and implement if deemed sensible.
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  4. #24
    La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham's Avatar Artifex♔Duffer♔Civitate
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    The Council of War would be a separate group, with their own dedicated forum and some perks like access to the modding staff and perhaps an activity award.
    Ah I see dear fellow!
    I am not sure having a separate entity within the modding staff will work to be honest, with the criteria you mention, I mean automatic entry for those ranked Optifex etc, that could cause discord with the modding staff.
    What would the rest of us who aren't Optifex rank be called.....The Lollipop Guild?....




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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham View Post
    I am not sure having a separate entity within the modding staff .................
    They will not be within the modding staff, they are a separate group. A formal collection that advises informally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar
    So a pseudo-staff branch with access to the staff forums, but neither proper oversight of behaviour
    What kind of oversight would they need? They will have no moderation powers, just fill an advisory role.

  6. #26
    La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham's Avatar Artifex♔Duffer♔Civitate
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Dont get me wrong sir, I commend you for your efforts and ideas, its absolutely what is needed! thank you.
    Although Hex would need to discuss this idea first.



    Alwyn,Caillagh and Tango in a meeting today....
    Last edited by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham; April 14, 2019 at 12:44 PM.

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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    What kind of oversight would they need? They will have no moderation powers, just fill an advisory role.
    Anyone with access to staff fora or involved in staff business is subject to oversight by Hex with regards to whether their conduct adheres to the pretty high standards for staff on this site.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    Under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Neadal/Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  8. #28
    Van Zandt's Avatar pulvis et umbra
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Anyone with access to staff fora or involved in staff business is subject to oversight by Hex with regards to whether their conduct adheres to the pretty high standards for staff on this site.
    Ah yes, those high standards we all talk about but cant define. I think for a group of modders giving advise you may have made a melodramatic presentation of said principles. Bravo!

  9. #29

    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Ah yes, those high standards we all talk about but cant define. I think for a group of modders giving advise you may have made a melodramatic presentation of said principles. Bravo!
    Bold words for someone who's ignored inconvenient arguments against this proposal.

  10. #30
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Ah yes, those high standards we all talk about but cant define. I think for a group of modders giving advise you may have made a melodramatic presentation of said principles. Bravo!
    I'm not talking of the „higher standards“ for citizens, but of the standards Hex enforces among staff. You should not confuse the two.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    Under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Neadal/Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    What kind of oversight would they need? They will have no moderation powers, just fill an advisory role.
    And why do you need to make a useless office for that? I thought that the Modding Staff had already a public commentary thread for such purpose
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  12. #32
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Opposed, as this proposal privilege only a small group of modders. It will also narrow the focus on the older TW titles, as most artifices and opifices come from the older titles and are still active there. But TWC is not underrepresented in the older titles, but in the newer ones.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; April 15, 2019 at 03:01 AM.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    I thought that the Modding Staff had already a public commentary thread for such purpose
    We have and here it is.
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    And why do you need to make a useless office for that? I thought that the Modding Staff had already a public commentary thread for such purpose
    The Council of War is not an office but a group that fills an informal advisory role. Public commentary is fine but Opifex members, in general have more experience with TW related issues and their insight would provide greater depth to possible solutions to issues faced by the modding community.

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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    It doesn't change the point: why do not need such office/group/whatever you name it when it is so simple just to use the commentary thread? I don't get it unless you want to satisfy the ego of some members
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    It doesn't change the point: why do not need such office/group/whatever you name it when it is so simple just to use the commentary thread? I don't get it unless you want to satisfy the ego of some members
    Its all about communication, really. We already have Opifix's so there is no need to vet the group. Soliciting advise from the group would really be helpful. Creating the formal group would aim at increasing interest and activity levels, something that TWC could use at the moment.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Its all about communication, really. We already have Opifix's so there is no need to vet the group. Soliciting advise from the group would really be helpful. Creating the formal group would aim at increasing interest and activity levels, something that TWC could use at the moment.
    Make an open inquiry in the commentary thread. Message relevant Opifix's by DM. Solicit advice from people directly and ensure anyone with an opinion can comment in the thread through more content. Start with things you need advice on now. It really, really isn't that difficult mate. It would take substantially less work than implementing this group of yours would.

    Never mind the other questions unanswered.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Make an open inquiry in the commentary thread. Message relevant Opifix's by DM. Solicit advice from people directly and ensure anyone with an opinion can comment in the thread through more content. Start with things you need advice on now. It really, really isn't that difficult mate. It would take substantially less work than implementing this group of yours would.

    Never mind the other questions unanswered.
    There would be little work involved in this proposal. Just recognition of an additional role for individuals with certain qualifications.

    Unfortunately i find the bulk of your arguments too be unrelated to the actual circumstances of the proposal. Your suggestion to direct message by DM is more applicable, but misses the point of providing a unified forum for communication, etc.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    sigh. Darth Paragrapher, take the lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    There would be little work involved in this proposal. Just recognition of an additional role for individuals with certain qualifications.
    Literally irrelevant on multiple counts.
    - Just recognition of an unusual role within the structure that has no precedence outside of the clearly different Emiratus function... I see.
    - New precedence of breaking the gap between staff and curia. While you can be of the curia while also being staff, it is a new precedence to be a curial member with access to staff subject to SND, which basically means you are giving non staff staff level access to the backend. This is not so simple.
    - The ability to produce mods and be acknowledged for having done modding work (such as, with recent precedence, research of a mod's historical context) is not a qualifier for providing useful advice, feedback and structural suggestions on how to manage modding policy on a wider scale. The ability to make a mod does not translate to the wider scope. Since it does not, it stands to reason that people with other sets of skills may in fact be equally or greater qualified. You are effectively using false equivalence. Read carefully - the ability to contribute to/produce mods does not make you a good suggestion maker. They are not exclusive talents, but both of them can be found outside of the optifex only structure. Indeed, there are citizens who do not have optifex who could perhaps be better for this on that same basis. "Individuals for certain qualifications" do not necessarily posses the qualifications necessary to be useful.
    - What you propose requires permissions work and staff approval well beyond the jurisdiction of the Curia. It is 100% relevant to the modding staff and higher individual staff authorities who would need to individually approve and then implement this on their end. Getting the curia to say "I see it!" is not enough. Even getting both the modding staff and those involved to say "they're in!" is not enough. This is indeed work, and while it may not be an extreme amount of work, the question remains if it and the infrastructure it entails is necessary in the scope of other options.

    Your proposal is bordering elitism. It conflates the prestige of "I made a mod" with the ability to speak on a wider scale, and exudes a sense of smugness by ignoring or deflecting the concept that maybe, just maybe, other people have something sensible to say. On that basis I move to the other point.

    Unfortunately i find the bulk of your arguments too be unrelated to the actual circumstances of the proposal. Your suggestion to direct message by DM is more applicable, but misses the point of providing a unified forum for communication, etc.[/QUOTE]



    My case is to make you defend the point of your proposal and viably justify it existing over other options. Your arguments to justify its existence is broad comments that "we need to do something!", but this is not satisfactory. We do need to do something. Why do we need to do it your way when simpler ways exist? The bulk of my arguments are all extensions of this point, and thus I find your comment to be accidentally dismissive at best resulting from poor reading or bad explanation on my part (which could still be addressed with a "could you rephrase that?" rather than ignoring it for a page's worth), a misleading deflection at worst.

    The problem to be solved - correct me if I am wrong - is that the modding staff lacks ideas or could stand to gain more ideas from currently outside members. This is the case, yes? If it is not, you'll need to explain what exactly the proposal is addressing - there's no point having a proposal to an unclear issue. Assuming this is indeed the problem, I will go back to my original questions, plus the apparently needed explanation of how they relate to the above.

    Is something stopping us from giving MS advice?
    The purpose of this structure is to facilitate interested members being able to involve themselves in Modding Staff workings (note, I doubt every optifex already signed in is going to care or be able to provide useful suggestions, that's just a basic given that I hope we can agree on - you have to be interested to participate). There are, as I'll go into, multiple ways you can achieve this end, and none of them even require more than you taking an initiative. Compare with the proposal that requires a curial vote (which isn't looking good if the progress so far is any indication), hex level approval, and mandatory aspects to an optional proceeding (automatic sign in of optifexes to a suggestion-giving organization).

    Is something stopping us from joining them ourselves? If you seriously need assistance, why don't you post that you need new people and ideas?
    TWC has a culture of rather easy staff entry and does not shy from a majority of its active members already being staff in multiple capacities. Thus, unless you're concerned of the structure becoming too unwieldy, this could be as simple as promoting your need for more members or asking about specific things you're working on, subsequent to ensuring the modding staff is behind you on any official requests of course. A "we need help!" on the front page would be a direct way to see who cares. But this is not the only method to solve the core problem, nor am I at all suggesting it be the only one. In fact, I lean towards the more open suggestions I'll leave below.
    - Using the commentary thread. Make it active. It's dead. In fact, why are you trying to add when current structures are unwell? Give it life, man. Ask for what you need, or ask people to make suggestions in a frame that would be useful to the staff.
    - Communicating more with your fellow staff to collectively come up with an idea for solving the issue. It's clear that you haven't communicated with other Modding Staff in this, so how the heck can you try to add more people to the bucket when you haven't even properly communicated this stuff with your existing peers?
    - Going directly to interesting people and asking if they'd join or what their thoughts are on a particular set of ideas. Reaching the right people from the onset can be more useful than making blanket groups and hoping you find the right person.

    The above is entirely relevant and what I have been driving at the entire time. It is relevant because it is addressing the premise of the proposal, that which the proposal is trying to solve. If we cannot lock down the premise and evaluate all notable options, the proposal is useless, aimless. It must be solving a specific issue.

    "providing a unified forum for communication" was never the premise, by contrast - it is a random and frankly somewhat confusing addendum that serves to befuddle rather than clarify. A unified forum of communication exists in finding members and opening yourself to feedback from everyone, even the disagreeable sorts. Not in making a specific "part of it but not really" group that draws only from a specific audience. I'm curious what you file under "etc".

  20. #40
    Van Zandt's Avatar pulvis et umbra
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodia_Metelli View Post
    Opposed, as this proposal privilege only a small group of modders. It will also narrow the focus on the older TW titles, as most artifices and opifixes come from the older titles and are still active there. But TWC is not underrepresented in the older titles, but in the newer ones.
    This is an important observation. You are right we are over-represented by the older TW franchise games. This is certainly an issue to discuss with other modders.

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