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Thread: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

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    Van Zandt's Avatar pulvis et umbra
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    Default Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Author: Van Zandt
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    I. The curia recommends the formation of a council of modders and modding members of the community in order to advise and assist the Modding Staff and Hex in activities that would promote the creation of a productive and creative modding environment. This council would be called "The Council of War" based on historical activities of such a named council here at TWC.

    II. Members of the Council of War will be given full access to the Modding Staff forum in order to engage with other council members and the modding staff.

    III. Members of the Council of War will be determined based on their engagement and activity in the modding community.
    a. Members must be citizens in good standing, with no prior moderator interactions for a period of 1 year prior to consideration for a seat on the Council of War.
    b. Members who have achieved the rank of "Opifex" will be granted automatic status as a member of the Council of War, subject to their qualifications relative to item IIIa in this proposal.
    c. Members of the Council of War or the Modding Staff may propose additional members, subject to approval by the Modding Director and/or Hex.

    IV. This position will have an advisory role only, and these members will not be allocated any moderation abilities relative to this council.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any comments or suggestions would be welcome.

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    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Author: Van Zandt
    Support:

    I. The curia recommends the formation of a council of modders and modding members of the community in order to advise and assist the Modding Staff and Hex in activities that would promote the creation of a productive and creative modding environment. This council would be called "The Council of War" based on historical activities of such a named council here at TWC.

    II. Members of the Council of War will be given full access to the Modding Staff forum in order to engage with other council members and the modding staff.

    III. Members of the Council of War will be determined based on their engagement and activity in the modding community.
    a. Members must be citizens in good standing, with no prior moderator interactions for a period of 1 year prior to consideration for a seat on the Council of War.
    b. Members who have achieved the rank of "Opifex" will be granted automatic status as a member of the Council of War, subject to their qualifications relative to item IIIa in this proposal.
    c. Members of the Council of War or the Modding Staff may propose additional members, subject to approval by the Modding Director and/or Hex.

    IV. This position will have an advisory role only, and these members will not be allocated any moderation abilities relative to this council.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any comments or suggestions would be welcome.
    Opposed to 100 % !!!

    The 2nd is out of question as only a Hex can grant access to a staff forum. Besides I think you forgot about a staff member must be adhered to the current staff policy and that is tied to SND.

    Which itself makes 3c impossible, because it's either a Modding Director or a Hex (only when the position as a Modding Diretor is vacant) that are authorized to recruit new members to a staff branch.

    I think 3b will increase elitism due for automatically grant awarded modders membership in a Council of War while other modders are excluded from the Council of War.

    I fail to see how the 4th is gonna to work in practice when only a former staff member can still have access to a staff branch due for being a Staff Emeritus (the Modding Staff doesn't have a Modding Staff Emeritus at this time).
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    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    I can't see the point of this honestly. Beside the points mentioned above by Leonardo, I'd add that if you , Modding Staff, need more inputs/help, you can always ask it/them from other Content Staffs or even from a larger basis of members with a public consultation. Also, with time, the Modding Staff will obviously get their own Emeriti, able to provide advices as well.
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    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Ummm, what will this new council/group be advising about? Is there anything that makes it impossible to happen without such a council/group? I have so far no clear opinion about this - as I don't really understand the intended
    point and overall goal of it? The modding staff have already plenty of qualified and able staff, and some Opifexes too - do you have something special in mind that we can't handle? That is, within our relevant field(s)?

    ...?...

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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    I just got one simple thing to address, others have been hit already, but I'll drive into this point in detail.
    What is the point of having this council? Is something stopping us from giving MS advice? Is something stopping us from joining them ourselves? If you seriously need assistance, why don't you post that you need new people and ideas? Hell, if you need manpower and creativity so badly, you might have me giving it a shot. No need for another bureaucratic apparatus for a problem that can be solved by reaching out to the same people you are looking for through this and promoting your need for people to join and help.

    This is the spitting image of unnecessary extra structure. What problem are you even trying to solve that can't be addressed as per above?

    Edit: Good god, here's another point - did you really just make a flowery 'Decision' thread about a matter that should be completely handled by Modding Staff? Did you tell anyone there about it, did you bounce ideas, did you make a thread for basic communication? Why the heck did you post it here without establishing a base of 'this seems okay' first? 2/3 posts prior to this are from modding staff, and it's almost surreal that this is posted by another member of modding staff. This looks like a weird, hokey attempt to circumvent your own teammates and appeal to an audience that cannot possibly 'decide' on this because this is something to be determined by the Modding Staff themselves.
    Last edited by CommodusIV; April 11, 2019 at 07:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Ummm, what will this new council/group be advising about? Is there anything that makes it impossible to happen without such a council/group?
    Improve relations and working environment with the modding community. This is already part of our strategic goal but having a common working space will put all these bright minds together.

    The modding staff have already plenty of qualified and able staff, and some Opifexes too - do you have something special in mind that we can't handle? That is, within our relevant field(s)?
    The current status of the modding staff seems to be in policing download links. Something grander was envisioned I'm sure and one way to achieve that goal is to put everyone in the same room.

    Rather than argue about forums, links and moderation permissions perhaps we should be looking at the mechanics/issues of the modding environment itself. For example, what tools are needed to create an new 3d city environment. Or unlocking inaccessible areas of a castle/fortress/citadel in Medieval II, etc. Another idea would be to link the graphics competitions to AAR development (of wait we did that already). Any level of ideas could be entertained.

    Making the environment welcoming and useful might go along way to improving modding activity here at TWC.

    @Lifthrasir - modding staff activities would be aimed at making some of the ideas proposed by the Council of War a reality, the idea here is to greatly increase the input level on a somewhat less than formal but permanent basis.

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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Going by the responses so far, I'm rather surprised this idea wasn't raised internally within Modding Staff beforehand. If you guys need any help or advice, I'm sure the Curia can oblige, but probably best you come to us as a unit; proper channels and all that.

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    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Improve relations and working environment with the modding community. This is already part of our strategic goal but having a common working space will put all these bright minds together.



    The current status of the modding staff seems to be in policing download links. Something grander was envisioned I'm sure and one way to achieve that goal is to put everyone in the same room.

    Rather than argue about forums, links and moderation permissions perhaps we should be looking at the mechanics/issues of the modding environment itself. For example, what tools are needed to create an new 3d city environment. Or unlocking inaccessible areas of a castle/fortress/citadel in Medieval II, etc. Another idea would be to link the graphics competitions to AAR development (of wait we did that already). Any level of ideas could be entertained.

    Making the environment welcoming and useful might go along way to improving modding activity here at TWC.

    @Lifthrasir - modding staff activities would be aimed at making some of the ideas proposed by the Council of War a reality, the idea here is to greatly increase the input level on a somewhat less than formal but permanent basis.
    I got your point but again, this proposal isn't necessary.
    Why does the Modding Staff not use or re-use this forum for such purposes? Make some cleaning/archiving and that's it. You've got your forum ready. I don't think that you need to create another office.
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    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Improve relations and working environment with the modding community.
    You know as much I do that's what a Modding Hex (who has the final saying in a staff branch, aside from GED of course) and a Modding Director (who is a senior , appointed by a Hex) does.

    That being said, just mark this proposal as abandoned and bring up more interesting subjects for a change, something more important like this or this.
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    I do like it when some of the fundamental early critiques are skipped over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Improve relations and working environment with the modding community. This is already part of our strategic goal but having a common working space will put all these bright minds together.

    [...]

    The current status of the modding staff seems to be in policing download links. Something grander was envisioned I'm sure and one way to achieve that goal is to put everyone in the same room.

    Rather than argue about forums, links and moderation permissions perhaps we should be looking at the mechanics/issues of the modding environment itself. For example, what tools are needed to create an new 3d city environment. Or unlocking inaccessible areas of a castle/fortress/citadel in Medieval II, etc. Another idea would be to link the graphics competitions to AAR development (of wait we did that already). Any level of ideas could be entertained.

    Making the environment welcoming and useful might go along way to improving modding activity here at TWC.

    @Lifthrasir - modding staff activities would be aimed at making some of the ideas proposed by the Council of War a reality, the idea here is to greatly increase the input level on a somewhat less than formal but permanent basis.
    See, this reply isn't wrong, in fact it says what many folks do think, but where it fails is justifying its necessity in light of very simple questions.

    Why can't you bring new blood into the modding staff so they can both speak and do, instead of some weird apparatus to say and propose things without actually being a part of it?
    If you are looking for ideas, why not general inquiry threads for the community to reply to? In that way you will not only get the elite echelons of Opifex, but anyone with a mind and opinion.

    Finally, if you have multiple levels of ideas to entertain, why aren't you proposing them to your own fellow staff? Everything you're saying is as simple as communicating directly to the people that matter, rather than throw dubious systems onto the board at the vote of the wrong core to be asking.

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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    That being said, just mark this proposal as abandoned and bring up more interesting subjects for a change, something more important like this or this.
    The ideas proposed by z3n are valid, but I think that in terms of real solutions for things like forum restructuring, link changes, media upgrades, we are looking at something that really needs to be done at the ownership level.

    The first link you site discusses links and structural organization, specifically on the homepage. Neither of us have the ability to produce any change there, and apparently no one in Hex does either. I support this particular idea but have no idea on how we could bring about some change in this area. Why would this even be a relevant argument?

    The second link discusses the Curia, and that is dilemma on everyone's mind now. That deserves a separate discussion.

    I welcome more discussion and I suggest that this is the right forum for that as it involves everyone on the site including the Modding Staff and other members, citizens and the unwashed masses.

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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Those who would be part of this council would be people interested in helping modding staff out and contributing to it. Why not just join modding staff?
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    I welcome more discussion and I suggest that this is the right forum for that as it involves everyone on the site including the Modding Staff and other members, citizens and the unwashed masses.
    In that case, please reply comprehensively to what has been asked, rather than a few specific comments.

  14. #14
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    The ideas proposed by z3n are valid, but I think that in terms of real solutions for things like forum restructuring, link changes, media upgrades, we are looking at something that really needs to be done at the ownership level.

    The first link you site discusses links and structural organization, specifically on the homepage. Neither of us have the ability to produce any change there, and apparently no one in Hex does either. I support this particular idea but have no idea on how we could bring about some change in this area. Why would this even be a relevant argument?

    The second link discusses the Curia, and that is dilemma on everyone's mind now. That deserves a separate discussion.

    I welcome more discussion and I suggest that this is the right forum for that as it involves everyone on the site including the Modding Staff and other members, citizens and the unwashed masses.
    The links were fixed fortunately and store is now removed. That was the main pet peeve I had so as far as I'm concerned that one idea can be ticked off as complete.

    As to this proposal I like the intent but it may be superfluous to the modding staff. Maybe just a commentary thread would do? I wasn't really done thinking about your proposal but I was drawn in to comment on the above.
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Neither of us have the ability to produce any change there, and apparently no one in Hex does either.
    Are you sure about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squid View Post
    I've added links to individual download sections.
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by King Athelstan View Post
    Those who would be part of this council would be people interested in helping modding staff out and contributing to it. Why not just join modding staff?
    Because Council of War sounds amazing. That's the reason. Really.

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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    I think it would be best if the idea was communicated and given a first draft within Modding Staff and then presented here. Especially such things as access to Staff fora are something that the Curia may have an opinion on, but none that matters, since these things are fully in the remit of Hex.

    Prima facie this proposal looks like a useless bling-body attached to Modding Staff. Anyone who wants to contribute to Modding Staff should simply contact Hex. The only group of people that might benefit from this additional body would be Opifices or other prolific modders that are not eligible for Modding Staff and I don't think those should gain access to it via some kind of backdoor.
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    Going by the responses so far, I'm rather surprised this idea wasn't raised internally within Modding Staff beforehand. If you guys need any help or advice, I'm sure the Curia can oblige, but probably best you come to us as a unit; proper channels and all that.
    As this concept is about recreating the Council of War there is no real reason top present it to Modding Staff first, but more likely to get better feedback from a wider audience. The Modding Staff was a Curial creation, as would be any formal council formation...so...also...I wasn't aware of any "proper" channels...could you provide more detail about that?

    Why can't you bring new blood into the modding staff so they can both speak and do, instead of some weird apparatus to say and propose things without actually being a part of it?
    This proposal isn't about the Modding Staff, it recreates an entirely different Council. To do so formally would be preferable, and that would involve the Curia, see my comments above.

    Because Council of War sounds amazing. That's the reason. Really.
    It does require some advertising. This in turn promotes activity and interest. Adding some bling couldn't hurt.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    As this concept is about recreating the Council of War there is no real reason top present it to Modding Staff first, but more likely to get better feedback from a wider audience. The Modding Staff was a Curial creation, as would be any formal council formation...so...also...I wasn't aware of any "proper" channels...could you provide more detail about that?



    This proposal isn't about the Modding Staff, it recreates an entirely different Council. To do so formally would be preferable, and that would involve the Curia, see my comments above.
    The proposal in fact has everything to do with Modding Staff. The proposal is only rendered necessary if the Modding Staff are drained of creativity and plans to execute, which, if what I hear is correct, isn't really the case. But even if it was, you are instituting an unnecessary structure for something as simple as asking for more people to join or opening a thread to ask for open feedback.

    The access to Modding Staff systems and the presumed entitlement of this council to have their voices heard and formally acknowledged is 100% relevant to them, and given this thread's response, you have entirely circumvented your own peers who clearly do not see the problems that you do. Why can't you do the other options? Why must it be a formal council with a blingy name and little substance - people who are kinda modding staff but really aren't? Their only use is advice, and now we loop back to the beginning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    It does require some advertising. This in turn promotes activity and interest. Adding some bling couldn't hurt.
    Activity and interest is promoted by giving people something to work with and openly inviting people to come in, not by instituting systems with an archaic stream of thought that give a restricted few the opportunity to provide feedback you could just as easily ask for yourself or provide yourself with an iota of creativity. Adding some bling can indeed hurt when it is pointless extra to a structure that has more than enough as it is.

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    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: Decision - Reformation of the Council of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    modding staff activities would be aimed at making some of the ideas proposed by the Council of War a reality, the idea here is to greatly increase the input level on a somewhat less than formal but permanent basis.
    Which can be either accepted or rejected by a Modding Hex and I doubt anything that the Curia have suggested for any staff branch later become a reality.

    You seems to forget the fact that Curia are not part of TWC staff.
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