[Submod] [WIP] Ancient Warfare: Supply and Movement

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Regarding the tier system, the basic concept is good, Maetharin, but it's highly unlikely that this solution can apply both to the player and the AI in the equal measure. The reason for it is that the AI is basically designed to recruit units up to full stacks and it will automaticaly be put at disadvantage by such a system. We may, of course, try to keep the AI away from this and implement it only for the player, but that will probably create too much of a gap between the AI and the player and frankly it diverts a bit too much from my original concept and from what I aim to achieve in this mod.

When it comes to those various multipliers for the armies in the same region, I believe this is basically doable via scripting, though much more complex one. One will basically have to create a function that checks for the presence of other army stacks within a defined radius of each army on the campaign map, then checks for the size of the armies in question based, for example, on the tier system described by you above and then depending on its calculations, it assigns a certain effect bundle to each stack. There might be further complications here as well. Like for example what's gonna happen if the the army stack A has both the army stack B and the army stack C in its radius, but the stacks B and C are not within their respective zones. What happens then to stack A? Does it get assigned the effect bundle based on its relation to stack B or stack C? Such script would be extremly difficult to execute, I believe.

[Maetharin]

Regarding the tier system, the basic concept is good, Maetharin, but it's highly unlikely that this solution can apply both to the player and the AI in the equal measure. The reason for it is that the AI is basically designed to recruit units up to full stacks and it will automaticaly be put at disadvantage by such a system. We may, of course, try to keep the AI away from this and implement it only for the player, but that will probably create too much of a gap between the AI and the player and frankly it diverts a bit too much from my original concept and from what I aim to achieve in this mod.

Concerning this, IMO this would be rather historical, even if a bit unfair.
We have the advantage of hindsight, but back then, innovative tactics involving smaller units were far from the norm.
Also, from mid game onwards, larger armies are necessary to capture settlements, whereas the advantages of smaller armies aren´t applicable to TW anyway.

When it comes to those various multipliers for the armies in the same region, I believe this is basically doable via scripting, though much more complex one. One will basically have to create a function that checks for the presence of other army stacks within a defined radius of each army on the campaign map, then checks for the size of the armies in question based, for example, on the tier system described by you above and then depending on its calculations, it assigns a certain effect bundle to each stack. There might be further complications here as well. Like for example what's gonna happen if the the army stack A has both the army stack B and the army stack C in its radius, but the stacks B and C are not within their respective zones. What happens then to stack A? Does it get assigned the effect bundle based on its relation to stack B or stack C? Such script would be extremly difficult to execute, I believe.

You´re right, didn´t think this through in terms of applicability.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Concerning this, IMO this would be rather historical, even if a bit unfair.
We have the advantage of hindsight, but back then, innovative tactics involving smaller units were far from the norm.
Also, from mid game onwards, larger armies are necessary to capture settlements, whereas the advantages of smaller armies aren´t applicable to TW anyway.

And it's actually for that reason that I prefer to link the unit movement to different unit groups rather than the size of each stack. Given the fact that in the game the concept of an army size is relative with armies being normally smaller in the early campaign and larger in the mid or late campaign, I think it's better to link it to specific units as then we will ensure that there is always no more than a certain portion of the army that has an ability to move faster, no matter what size of the army we are currently dealing with. As I already mentioned above, in the early campaign the fast-moving detachments will amount to 1/3, 1/2 of the stack at most, while at more advanced stage of campaign that can easily be the whole stack once the relative size of the army has increased.

You are definitely right when you say that the size of an army, or more specifically its marching column, played an important role in the speed of its movement, but the historical accounts clearly point, nonetheless, to the fact that it was a specific selection of light units that were assigned to such fast-moving detachments - or at least that's how it was for the Hellenistic factions - and if we link the movement speed solely to the stack size we will have to completely disregard this historical aspect. We may, of course, combine both, the stack size and the unit type, but again that will work only for the player and not for the AI and it will be too overelaborated for this game engine, I believe.

[geala]

Sounds like an awesome mod, I will surely try it.

One remark about supplies: as much as I'm a "supply system" fan, it should be implemented carefully. I sometimes have the feeling that modern army supply problems are applied to pre-modern armies. Which is dangerous. With a "modern army" I mean armies after about 1850 AD.

As shown in several calculations it was not possible to supply a bigger army in pre-modern times by a moving supply column over greater distances. The exception was a moving supply column on water. And that even given the fact that the amount of supplies needed by old armies was ridiculously low compared to modern armies. A modern army mainly needs ammunition and fuel, the old armies mainly needed water and food. The reasons for the supply failures are known, mainly bad relation between animal carry weight and necessary food and water.

So, the solution always was, more or less, living of the land by foraging or buying supplies (the latter sometimes even in enemy territory). As van Crefeld has mentioned in "Supplying War" even the magazine system of the 18th c. AD did not change the "living of the land" approach considerably. Only railways did.

As a result I would not invent an arcade supply line system with an even greater impact than in the current state. I would make foraging more difficult (which means slower movement, morale hit and some lower stats). It would be nice if the seasons were more meaningful (although quite difficult in a 4 tpy game). Starving should have a bigger impact than now. It should above all not be possible to move for longer periods out of foraging mode. Therefore I would make the goodies of a supply line even less than now. Which would make gameplay more difficult and slower, as a simple supply line or train (not that difficult for a player to maintain) would not aid you that much.

[asher237]

very interesting concept.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Thanks, guys!

geala, yeah, I definitely agree with your opinion on the supply system. Basically, I don't intend to change any of the core elements of the supply system that we now have in place in DeI, i.e. supply lines, supply ships, supply carts, foraging, etc. My goal is instead to rebalance all these features to make the whole system more hardcore for the player and link the supply more closely to the campaign movement. I described above in the post #19 precisely how I see this. The seasons, as also mentioned above, will play a more significant role and that's why I believe that playing 12 TPY will result in the most optimal campaign experience with this mod. Playing 4 TPY will be all right, but as you say it, it won't be as rewarding as 12 TPY.

Regarding those supply lines, yeah, personally I don't really see this as the actual act of establishing the supply network in the modern sense of this concept. For me that's more like a RPG element linked in this instance to the building effects, that reflects the whole process of supply logistics prior to launching the military campaign into the foreign territory such as gathering supplies, preparation of transport ships and pack animals, establishing contacts with the local population in the foreign territory in an attempt to secure the steady supply of food and water once on the march, etc. I plan, nonetheless, to reduce the range of supply lines for the lower-tier buildings with only the highest tier extending the supply line for as many as 3 regions.

Foraging will basically be limited, supply by fleet will be empathised and starvation will have severe effects, especially on the movement and attrition.

[Maetharin]

Seleukos, what would you think of publishing two versions of this mod, balanced for 4 and 12 tpy each?
Also, Jake was so kind to send me a pack with the script we were talking about, and while IMO it doesn´t really fit in a 4tpy setting, it does work very well in a 12tpy setting.
If you´d like to try it out, I´ll send you the link he provided me.

[Jake Armitage]

It's up to you to decide what to do, but keep in mind I can help if someone needs something regarding scripts (not too difficult, please )
Keep in mind external scripts (the ones with proper lua sheets, like the one I send to Maetherin) will make the pack incompatible with all other external scripted mods (well mostly mine, PIGS, RPGu, TESTUDO and the ones who are coming).
There should be some workaround to directly put a callback inside the script itself (instead of being into the campaign script), never tried yet though.
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussi...atible-scripts

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Maetharin, when I say that the mod will probably be the most balanced for 12 TPY, I mean that it will be the most rewarding experience playing it with 12 TPY due to a more realistic season rotation where each season lasts 3 and not only 1 turn. That said, that will obviously be fun with 4 TPY as well. I may, however, do indeed different packs for 4 and 12 TPY with custom campaign movements - pretty much the way Jake did it for TESTUDO - as the movement that one will have for 4 TPY will probably be too large for 12 TPY.

Regarding the script, sure thing! Please, share it with me and I'll be happy to take a look at it.

[z3n]

Looks interesting, good luck with it!

[Crappy]

Just checking in to see if this is still being worked on? It looks really cool!

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Thanks Crappy! I'm still at it, of course. Though, I've got lately a bit sidetracked by RL and Imperator Rome.

I'm currently reading some stuff on the Roman military logistics to get some good knowledge about it, and I'm analysing in detail the current DeI supply system to see exactly what can be changed and how.

[leonardusius]

Fluke,

Thanks! Glad you like the concept! Though, even if I managed to get a good outcome here I guess this kind of system would be a bit too much for an average player for the submod to be included in the main mod. But that's always up to Dresden and the rest of the team. If they want to take anything and adopt it into the main mod they are always more than welcome to do so.

Jake and Maetharin,

Thank you very much, guys, for your ideas and your input!

Regarding the movement script, it's good to know that this can be done via scripting. I'm not sure whether this can actually be applicable in this mod, but I'll keep it in mind, nonetheless.

Maetharin, I totally agree with you on the way the foraging works at the moment. It's a wayyyy too easy for the player to live off foraging for many a turn without the necessity to even move his armies around and without taking any serious consequences of such actions. That will be one of the first things I would like to look into in the supply script, making it much more tougher for the player, not for the AI, though. The way I see it now is like following;

1. Supply by foraging; limited, inefficient and having a negative impact on the movement from the start. I'm not sure whether the ability to forage can be also tied to the seasons. If yes, I see it the following way:

a. winter - very limited ability to forage
b. spring - foraging not possible at all (supply stores empty prior to the harvest)
c. summer - foraging possible for a limited number of time in the region
d. autumn - foraging possible for a limited number of time in the region

2. Supply by carts; slightly more efficient way of supplying the armies, in some regions away from the friendly territory the only viable way of obtaining steady supplies; negative impact on the campaign movement

3. Supply by fleet; much more efficient way of supplying the armies having a positive impact on their movement; if possible the player should be encouraged to take the route where the supplies can be delivered by the fleet

4. Supply by the supply line; by far the most efficient way of supplying the armies having a positive impact on their movement; the player should be encouraged to build the supply depots in the border regions prior to launching the campaign into the enemy territory

On top of that I also want the seasons to be even more impactful than now with regard to movement. Needless to say, the most rewarding experience will be to play this on 12 TPY.

The AI will of course have to be excluded from all these complexities of such system as that can only have a negative effect on it. For the player that will be much tougher, but more fun at the same time. Besides, as a form of compensation the player will also have the opportunity to adjust the movement of his armies through the army compositions. Something that I can't imagine the AI to be able to benefit from, either.

Cool and very needed concepts. Foraging as it is now is utterly non-realistic. Movement according special abilities, well....better Jake's way, with scripts !

[leonardusius]

It's up to you to decide what to do, but keep in mind I can help if someone needs something regarding scripts (not too difficult, please )
Keep in mind external scripts (the ones with proper lua sheets, like the one I send to Maetherin) will make the pack incompatible with all other external scripted mods (well mostly mine, PIGS, RPGu, TESTUDO and the ones who are coming).
There should be some workaround to directly put a callback inside the script itself (instead of being into the campaign script), never tried yet though.
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussi...atible-scripts

I think it's quite easy to merge scripts into one single one, paying attention for incompatibilities.

[leonardusius]

Thanks, guys!

geala, yeah, I definitely agree with your opinion on the supply system. Basically, I don't intend to change any of the core elements of the supply system that we now have in place in DeI, i.e. supply lines, supply ships, supply carts, foraging, etc. My goal is instead to rebalance all these features to make the whole system more hardcore for the player and link the supply more closely to the campaign movement. I described above in the post #19 precisely how I see this. The seasons, as also mentioned above, will play a more significant role and that's why I believe that playing 12 TPY will result in the most optimal campaign experience with this mod. Playing 4 TPY will be all right, but as you say it, it won't be as rewarding as 12 TPY.

Regarding those supply lines, yeah, personally I don't really see this as the actual act of establishing the supply network in the modern sense of this concept. For me that's more like a RPG element linked in this instance to the building effects, that reflects the whole process of supply logistics prior to launching the military campaign into the foreign territory such as gathering supplies, preparation of transport ships and pack animals, establishing contacts with the local population in the foreign territory in an attempt to secure the steady supply of food and water once on the march, etc. I plan, nonetheless, to reduce the range of supply lines for the lower-tier buildings with only the highest tier extending the supply line for as many as 3 regions.

Foraging will basically be limited, supply by fleet will be empathised and starvation will have severe effects, especially on the movement and attrition.

Totally agree with that.

[leonardusius]

Hey Maetharin,

Thanks for the heads-up!

Frankly, that was also something I had in mind regarding the army size, but as you certainly know yourself, the game engine does not allow for any adjustments to the army movement range based on the number of units in the stack.

Oh. Jake already resolved that issue. Is quite easy. So, you can do it. Another problem was there for me and Jake (and till now without fix, sadly): how to trigger an effect based on army stance ! Overall, cool concept bro ! Waiting for improvement.

[leonardusius]

IMO one of the biggest issues with the supply script in DeI is that it‘s basically toothless in a 4tpy setting.
Yes, not having supply lines and having completely foraged a region is punishing,
but not to the degree that it would have been in reality.
3 months without food? That‘s a death sentence for any army.
Is it an established fact that it‘s impossible to reduce movement distance of armies in accordance with their size?
Maybe it would be possible by making armies over a certain size unable to move unless equipped with a supply train unit?
Or maybe it can be done through regions, such as “x units/armies in region/province reduces movement distance by y amount“
Or maybe a combination of all of the above?

Yeah, with scripts is quite easy. About 4tpy meaning 3 month of lacking foods, you're right. I think a combination of all is better.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Thanks for your input, leonardusius!