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Thread: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    The United States has the world’s leading Silicon Valley. Russia has only one building in Skolkovo in the suburbs of Moscow and China’s large Silicon Valley is not a world leader.

    Democracy, capitalism and the rule of law are the keys to American success. Russia and China remain politically authoritarian, state run economies with minimal rule of law. Massive corruption is the norm in Russia and China.
    It is readily apparent that democracy and capitalism are proving to be the growing weakness of America, especially with the current cold civil war between trump republicans and democrats, the growth of nazism, and the massive discontent from unbridled capitalism and mass unemployment leading to the opioid crisis.

    The Huffpost, being an ideological rag, lives up to its creed and offers no evidence to support their final conclusions.

    Reality is a different story,especially with regards to China, but it is interesting to see how the US Elites have become the very rogue nations they were harping on about in the 2000s...all because they fear losing primacy.
    World should fear US decline not China rise


    • The irrational destructive potential of a once great power that would prefer to drag everybody down with it rather than lose dominance should not be underestimated


    Source: https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight...not-china-rise

  2. #62
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    I assume you were referencing part of the quote from my post: referring to Dr. Jonoathan Adelman's comments.

    I was more impressed with the concluding sentences:
    Democracy, capitalism and the rule of law are the keys to American success. Russia and China remain politically authoritarian, state run economies with minimal rule of law. Massive corruption is the norm in Russia and China.
    Do you need sources for that portion as well? That was the conclusion as I read it. In any case you have his credentials: Dr. Jonathan Adelman is a full professor at the Josef Korbel School at the University of Denver

    The 'cold civil war' as you put it between the two major political parties in the USA is just normal politics. Nothing has changed in a this since the beginnings of the Republic. So how is the nature of democracy and capitalism in the USA leading to your conclusion of decline of the USA? How should this be changed? I am assuming that some form of democracy is desired and some form of capitalism is desired as well, but maybe your points are different.

    Personally, I would like to see less regulation and less bureaucratic driven rules. The US Congress lets too much to be left to regulation when it should be legislated. The Executive branch can only execute what is in the laws. Every law has some form of leaving it to the appointed and also career regulators as a get out of jail card for legislative mistakes. I see this with the EU as well.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    I assume you were referencing part of the quote from my post: referring to Dr. Jonoathan Adelman's comments.

    I was more impressed with the concluding sentences:

    Do you need sources for that portion as well? That was the conclusion as I read it. In any case you have his credentials: Dr. Jonathan Adelman is a full professor at the Josef Korbel School at the University of Denver

    The 'cold civil war' as you put it between the two major political parties in the USA is just normal politics. Nothing has changed in a this since the beginnings of the Republic. So how is the nature of democracy and capitalism in the USA leading to your conclusion of decline of the USA? How should this be changed? I am assuming that some form of democracy is desired and some form of capitalism is desired as well, but maybe your points are different.

    Personally, I would like to see less regulation and less bureaucratic driven rules. The US Congress lets too much to be left to regulation when it should be legislated. The Executive branch can only execute what is in the laws. Every law has some form of leaving it to the appointed and also career regulators as a get out of jail card for legislative mistakes. I see this with the EU as well.
    Dr. Jonathan Adelman unfortunately provides very little evidence, and arguments from authority are no arguments at all.

    Just today, we have witnessed the very decline of american power: the inability to overthrow an upstart socialist bolivarian nation of Venezuela in the US' own backyard.

    This isn't even like Bay of Pigs II, this is more like a Suez crisis level fiasco for the US.

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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    I was more impressed with the concluding sentences:
    Democracy, capitalism and the rule of law are the keys to American success. Russia and China remain politically authoritarian, state run economies with minimal rule of law. Massive corruption is the norm in Russia and China.
    Do you need sources for that portion as well?
    Norsething, that quote you give there is a tired trope. I have heard it so much and it's so counter to the real life experience I and others have, who do business with both Russia and the US.
    Look hard enough and you'll find a guy saying anything you want to hear. There's no substantial argument to back it up with though:

    1) Democracy in the US is a sad joke. Enough with it.
    I'm not a fan of the Russians either, especially their hurdle of, iirc, 7% for elected parties to get their seats in the parliament. In Germany it's 5%, in Denmark 2%, ... and in the US it's 50%. Instead of a one party state you have a two party state, with mostly the same drawbacks (they both pretty much want the same thing) and some additional ones (your frequent government shutdowns, for example).
    I personally advocate to differentiate between democracy, oligarchy and monarchy/tyranny the way Polybios did, because it's the most accurate one. He pointed out that there are specific advantages and problems coming with each system. Mislabeling elective oligarchy as "representative democracy" leads to misdiagnosing the structural problems inherent to the system.
    So from my point of view, only very few countries, such as Switzerland are truly democratic. That's just an fyi-rant from my side, but back to the topic:
    But even accepting the "representative democracy" thing for the sake of argument, then there's just nothing substantially differentiating the Russian system from especially the US one.
    Especially not in a way that favours the point you're trying to make.
    We can play the same game I offered in a different thread regarding state sponsored terrorism.
    For every undemocratic thing in Russia I can pretty reliably point out how that's still better than what's happening in the US.
    To simplify it: The US "democracy" is on one level. The good European ones are in an entirely different weight class. The Russian one is in between, but much closer to the European standards.

    That doesn't make Putin good or certain parties good or corrupt officials good. But this constant lecturing about democracy could hardly come from a worse western example than the US.
    I don't mean to crap on it, you (=USA) do your thing, except you kinda force this topic on us.
    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    I was more impressed with the concluding sentences:
    Democracy, capitalism and the rule of law are the keys to American success. Russia and China remain politically authoritarian, state run economies with minimal rule of law. Massive corruption is the norm in Russia and China.
    2)I was impressed by it too: What success are we talking about again?! Clearly not manufacturing. Clearly not jobs. Clearly not social developments. Clearly not infrastructure. Clearly not healthcare. Clearly not corruption either. And calling a state "authoritarian" with "minimal rule of law" is a direct, irreconcilable difference. But yeah. Let's talk about law then. How come Monsanto wasn't prosecuted until basically the day after they got sold to the German Bayer?
    How does such a huge portion of the US population get behind bars? How does Guantanamo exist? How come that no one responsible for the Flint water crisis is in jail? And no one responsible for the various wars across the world, even though, morality and war crimes set aside (which the US is obliged to adhere to and prosecute by international law), the blow back has been severe and hard to ignore? Not to mention the soldiers who gave their lives or health? If their lives were thrown away irresponsibly, then surely there's a moral obligation to find out who, how and why did that? What about Biden pocketing directly money from the Ukrainians, using his political power, and 1 billion dollar of US taxpayer money unduly to save his son from investigation? What about Clinton's foundation that pocketed obscene amounts of money from foreign governments? Yeah, how about foreign (Israeli & Saudi) money bankrolling the US elections to an obscene degree?

    Can't speak for China, can to a certain speak for Russia. Corruption is still a huge problem there. No one is denying that. But the Russians are at least aware of it and trying to do something about it. And both my own personal experience and that of everyone I know who's dealt in Russia, it's changed for the much better compared to what it used to be.

    But all right: "State-run economies" is a good key point. Russia's governmental spending % of GDP is lower than that of the USA; at 34% vs 38% according to the OECD.
    Not that that's necessarily an advantage. In my country (Denmark) it's at 55%! In Germany, which is the world's industrial superpower, it's 44%.
    It's not the government expenditure that is problematic, but rather what it's being spent on, and whether the country can actually afford it.

    Things manufactured in the US are rarely exported. The US industry depends to a much larger degree on government spending than e.g. Germany. The US government tries to "buy American". Meanwhile, the US is the world leader when it comes to importing finished goods.

    Another hilarious example you can find on that list with basically the same level of governmental spending is Japan. Well... 1) you can't trust their data, and 2) this.
    If your country is amongst the top 10 shareholders in 50% of its companies, that sounds pretty much state-run to me.

    And yes, less government is good, more private companies are good, but the US isn't heading that way, is it?
    And the US private sector is pushing ever stronger towards oligopoly where none of the benefits of free market apply.
    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    The 'cold civil war' as you put it between the two major political parties in the USA is just normal politics. Nothing has changed in a this since the beginnings of the Republic. So how is the nature of democracy and capitalism in the USA leading to your conclusion of decline of the USA? How should this be changed? I am assuming that some form of democracy is desired and some form of capitalism is desired as well, but maybe your points are different.
    3) It's not normal politics though? At least it shouldn't be. Maybe I'm naive, and I don't care how a foreign nation is being ruled (you do you, Russians do Russia; that's how it should be!) so let's just move on.
    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Personally, I would like to see less regulation and less bureaucratic driven rules. The US Congress lets too much to be left to regulation when it should be legislated. The Executive branch can only execute what is in the laws. Every law has some form of leaving it to the appointed and also career regulators as a get out of jail card for legislative mistakes. I see this with the EU as well.
    3)I don't disagree with you on that one. So instead of disagreeing with you on that one, let's first talk about how this is the only (!) factor mentioned above that's actually got an impact on the economy (and a significant one at that, might I add). Russia's still got a butt load of regulations. It used to be worse. That's absolutely nothing compared to what the US has (depending on what area of business you're interested in). The Russians have gone through considerable efforts to make it better. In many ways it's a liberal's economical dream.

    I have some direct comparisons from both personal experience and that of my social networks, and it's not rosy on either side. A friend of mine had his Moscow office raided by a Russian SWAT-team (we're talking about Swedish parfume here...), but still: In one country the regulatory and economical policies point in a positive direction, whereas in the other they do not.

    Russian regulatory policies are decreasing. The US ones are increasing. Russia's dependence on governmental spending is decreasing, in the US it's clearly increasing. Russia's dependence on oil is decreasing, the US is in some trouble there. Russia is diversifying its economy, the US... Oh boy.

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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Norsething, that quote you give there is a tired trope. I have heard it so much and it's so counter to the real life experience I and others have, who do business with both Russia and the US....
    I don't do business there, but the little I know is that its complicated.

    I have friends in telcos and the steel industry. For visits to Russia and China its burner phones and laptops as everything you have will be hacked. The US does not have mater-of-course state sponsored hacking of visiting businessmen, although no doubt it happens (not enough to warrant a mandatory policy of burner phones).

    In Russia the need for bribes is patchy, and more "familiar" soft bribery in that it often involves hospitality, but it can be cash on the barrel head. In China it is quite upfront at almost every level of the state, and a friend in transport logistics tells me his projects have 10% "administrative costs" added to every budget he creates, because that the expected cost of bribes to make anything happen. If someone gets greedy and jacks the price up they get publicly executed, so its kind of state regulated corruption if that makes sense.

    The cash bribes are shocking to western eyes because its sen as nakedly unethical, yet we do allow hospitality, which amounts to a bribe if we are honest. We also allow political donations, another kind of bribe, as it is portrayed as a kind of public contribution: you don't get that kind of bribery in China or Russia AFAIK.

    We have to wine and dine/other "soft bribery" to do business in the US, UK, Germany etc, but the cost is less. I think a Russian and especially a Chinese person would find political donations quite corrupt, we're just used to them. Likewise we find upfront cash bribes offensive.

    It may scale differently depending on the size of the enterprise, but at the level I am familiar with it costs less for an Australian to do business in the US or Europe than Russia, and less in Russia than in China. So at a rough guess China is more corrupt than the US.
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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Russia's problem is government efficiency, hence why Putin thought concentration of power would increase government efficiency.
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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Cookiegod: Your post is terrific. No time to go into it now though.

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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I don't do business there, but the little I know is that its complicated.

    I have friends in telcos and the steel industry. For visits to Russia and China its burner phones and laptops as everything you have will be hacked. The US does not have mater-of-course state sponsored hacking of visiting businessmen, although no doubt it happens (not enough to warrant a mandatory policy of burner phones).
    And do you have any source for that?

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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Neo-Nazi networks exposed across US military
    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/201.../nzws-m04.html

    The US military is fast becoming infiltrated by Nazi groups and that means less loyalty to the central government; the day that an american fancying himself another Caesar, will march on Washington grows more possible by the day.

  10. #70

    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Hysteria and hyperbole. What's really going on:

    Army investigating soldier's alleged ties to neo-Nazi group

    The Army is investigating after a soldier has been accused of holding a leadership position in a neo-Nazi group.
    A spokeswoman for the 1st Armored Division told The Hill that Private First Class Corwyn Storm Carver, who is in the division based at Fort Bliss in El Paso, Texas, is being investigated for alleged ties to the Atomwaffen Division group.
    "I can confirm that Pfc. Carver is a Soldier here at Fort Bliss but to protect the integrity of the investigation, I cannot comment further on it," Lt. Col. Crystal Boring, a spokeswoman for the 1st Armored Division, said in a statement to The Hill.
    ADVERTISEMENT

    The investigation, first reported by HuffPost on Friday, comes after independent journalist Nate Thayer published an article last month identifying Carver as a leader of Atomwaffen.
    The group's members have reportedly been connected to at least five murders, and the Southern Poverty Law Center has identified it as a neo-Nazi group, saying it operates as "a series of terror cells that work toward civilizational collapse."
    The investigation is likely to examine whether Carver's alleged ties to the group have broken Army rules surrounding extremism and discrimination, according to HuffPost, which said that Carver did not answer requests for comment.
    Extremism in the military has recently come under scrutiny. A 2017 Military Times poll found that a quarter of troops have come across white nationalism while serving.

    https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4...neo-nazi-group

    So one soldier stands accused. The military is making it clear that extremism in the ranks won't be tolerated in the slightest. The country has dealt with scum like this before, since it's founding in fact. So I'm afraid your dreams of the United States' destruction are dashed yet again.
    Last edited by Coughdrop addict; May 05, 2019 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Forgot to put a link to the article.

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    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/201.../nzws-m04.html

    The US military is fast becoming infiltrated by Nazi groups and that means less loyalty to the central government; the day that an american fancying himself another Caesar, will march on Washington grows more possible by the day.
    How is an organization with declining numbers fast becoming anything but perhaps extinct?
    In March 2018, it was reported that the group was seeing steep declines in membership. The collapse has been seen in other alt-right groups, and has been attributed to widespread public backlash against neo-Nazism and white supremacy since the 2017 Charlottesville rally.[30]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Evropa

    “It’s remarkable that in the last week, three of the primary intellectual leaders of the alt-right have either left the movement or radically altered their path,” Ryan Lenz, a spokesman for the SPLC told the Guardian on Wednesday.
    “What we are seeing is a sort of falling apart, or a fraying, of the movement, which really began with Charlottesville, where the so-called Unite the Right rally put them under the harsh light of public scrutiny,” he said.
    Lenz said it was not yet clear exactly why the movement appeared to be in turmoil.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...estic-violence

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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    As it turns out, movements made up of

    sparse little man who feeds off his self-delusions and finds himself perpetually hungry for want of greatness in his diet. And like some goose-stepping predecessors he searches for something to explain his hunger, and to rationalize why a world passes him by without saluting. That something he looks for and finds is in a sewer. In his own twisted and distorted lexicon he calls it faith, strength, truth.

    are inherently unstable. If alt-righters could work with others and function in society, they wouldn't be alt-righters. But by their very nature they can rarely achieve anything more than a small group of bickering personality cults.
    Last edited by Coughdrop addict; May 05, 2019 at 08:23 PM.

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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    As it turns out, movements made up of


    are inherently unstable. If alt-righters could work with others and function in society, they wouldn't be alt-righters. But by their very nature they can rarely achieve anything more than a small group of bickering personality cults.
    And how is that different from what I see on the left?

    And how is this even related to the thread topic of American Empire is the sick man of the 21st Century?

    Serious questions. I really cannot follow the logic of your post.

  14. #74

    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    And how is that different from what I see on the left?

    And how is this even related to the thread topic of American Empire is the sick man of the 21st Century?

    Serious questions. I really cannot follow the logic of your post.
    Exarch posted an article and talked about his belief that a Nazi takeover of the US was growing likely.

    I posted that that was ridiculous.

    You posted that, if anything, alt-right groups are declining.

    I posted about why that might be so, IE alt-righters being unable to work together for very long because of the personality flaws that make the alt-right philosophy attractive to them in the first place.

    You follow?

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    Icon1 Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    How is an organization with declining numbers fast becoming anything but perhaps extinct?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Evropa

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...estic-violence
    Just because the movement goes underground doesn't mean it dies; the ideas don't die, especially since the economic and social conditions that brought about the populism of those ideas, haven't yet been resolved ie high unemployment, little to no prospects, lack of sexual access for most american white males.

    Secondly, there appears to be an attempt to re-brand these white supremacist movements as being innocuous compared to say islamic terrorism:
    https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/stat...90411156086787

  16. #76

    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Just because the movement goes underground doesn't mean it dies; the ideas don't die
    True, ideas don't die. They can, however, loose so much popularity that the greater whole of society sees the ideas as not worth considering and those who hold them as oddball misfits at best. You can find a few pro-slavery arguments on the internet, that doesn't mean that a popular effort to repeal the 13th amendment is just around the corner.

    especially since the economic and social conditions that brought about the populism of those ideas, haven't yet been resolved ie high unemployment, little to no prospects, lack of sexual access for most american white males.
    Except the US is in an economic boom. Unemployment is low. As for sexual access, where do you get this stuff? Have you even heard of Tinder?

    Secondly, there appears to be an attempt to re-brand these white supremacist movements as being innocuous compared to say islamic terrorism:
    https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/stat...90411156086787
    Nothing new. White supremacist groups have been trying to argue that since even before 9-11. It gained a little more traction after the attacks, but they are still a long, LONG way from posing a credible threat to the nation's very existence.

  17. #77

    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    I feel like the whole "fear the evil alt-right" narrative seems to be product of media fearmongering (kinda like Satanic Panic in the 80s). I mean the term itself makes little sense, given how it is an umbrella term for a variety of ideologies, from democratic nationalism to libertarianism. Essentially its just mostly young people, who are too intelligent and cynical to eat up establishment propaganda from legacy media, and given how they observe the general failure of liberal democracy and socialism, they seek alternatives. Plus if corrupt and subversive elites were to be removed and replaced, then US would stop being that "sick man" or at least would have a chance to do that.

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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I feel like the whole "fear the evil alt-right" narrative seems to be product of media fearmongering (kinda like Satanic Panic in the 80s).
    The Satanic Panic was based on completely unfounded b.s. Unlike them, white nationalists actually have a body count and are emboldened by the current administration.

    I mean the term itself makes little sense, given how it is an umbrella term for a variety of ideologies, from democratic nationalism to libertarianism. Essentially its just mostly young people, who are too intelligent and cynical to eat up establishment propaganda from legacy media, and given how they observe the general failure of liberal democracy and socialism, they seek alternatives.
    I agree, let's do away with the political correctness they claim to hate so much and just call them white supremacists/nationalists.

    Plus if corrupt and subversive elites were to be removed and replaced, then US would stop being that "sick man" or at least would have a chance to do that.
    Corrupt and subversive elites like Trump?
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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    The Satanic Panic was based on completely unfounded b.s. Unlike them, white nationalists actually have a body count and are emboldened by the current administration.
    Nah, the silly "bodycount" argument was also made by evangelicals (basically 80s equivalent of modern-day SJWs), based on guys like Richard Ramirez and Berkowitz.
    I agree, let's do away with the political correctness they claim to hate so much and just call them white supremacists/nationalists.
    Unless your definition of white supremacy is being more right-wing then tepid neocons, then your statement is nonsensical.
    Corrupt and subversive elites like Trump?
    Trump is most likely part of that, but let's not kid ourselves, this crap has been going since before Trump was even born.

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    Default Re: The American Empire Is the Sick Man of the 21st Century

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Nah, the silly "bodycount" argument was also made by evangelicals (basically 80s equivalent of modern-day SJWs), based on guys like Richard Ramirez and Berkowitz.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...sque_shootings
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlo...lle_car_attack
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charle...hurch_shooting

    Just a few examples of white nationalists committing acts in the name of their beliefs. I could go on and on. The Satanic Panic however, was a bunch of conservative religious fundamentalists trying to demonize hobbies such as DnD.

    Unless your definition of white supremacy is being more right-wing then tepid neocons, then your statement is nonsensical.
    Right, because a bunch of people Nazi saluting, referencing Der Sturmer,

    or chanting "Jews will not replace us"


    They can't be white supremacists, they're just a bit to the right of "tepid neocons"

    Trump is most likely part of that, but let's not kid ourselves, this crap has been going since before Trump was even born.
    Let's not pretend white supremacists don't worship the ground he walks on and acted like he was the 2nd coming.
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