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Thread: Meanwhile in Libya...

  1. #61

    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Emmanuel Macron: 'Turkey is playing a dangerous game in Libya'
    Turkey is playing "a dangerous game" with its military intervention in Libya that will not be tolerated by France, President Emmanuel Macron has warned.
    Air support and weapons from Turkey over recent months have helped change the tide in Libya's civil war.
    The UN-recognised government pushed back a year-long siege on the capital Tripoli at the beginning of June and has secured much of the west of the country against Khalifa Haftar's Libyan National Army (LNA).
    Turkey's military support — and the allied fighters it has transported from Syria — contributed to the Tripoli government's gains over the LNA, which is backed by Egypt, Russia and the United Arab Emirates.
    But Macron said Turkey's actions went against commitments it made during Berlin peace talks in January.
    "I have already had the opportunity to say very clearly to President Erdogan I consider today that Turkey is playing a dangerous game in Libya and is in breach of all commitments it took during the Berlin conference," he said.
    France has previously given military support to Haftar to fight Islamist militants and denies supporting his side in the civil war.
    But Macron has not criticised countries allied to the LNA, even though he has often rebuked Turkey.
    Last week France accused Turkey of harassing a French ship off the coast of Libya while it carried out checks on a Turkish ship that it suspected of breaking a UN arms embargo to Libya.
    A French defence ministry account of the encounter — which occurred several weeks ago — said that Turkish frigates carried out radar targeting on a French ship, suggesting a missile strike was imminent.
    Turkey denies this happened.
    But Macron said on Monday that the incident between two NATO allies was an indication of the military alliance's weaknesses.
    "When I see what is being done last week under NATO's command off the coast of Libya, I consider it unacceptable," he said.
    "And I'll take you back to my statement last year on NATO being brain dead. I think this is the best example of it."
    The French president first made the "brain dead" remark last November, criticising what he considers the military alliance's failure to treat seriously the external threats to southern Europe and the Baltic states.
    Macron's latest comments would baffle even the most zealous critics of Turkey. Macron is blaming Turkey for its support of the UN-recognized government of Tripoli against Haftar while repeating his calling of NATO brain dead over a supposed to naval conflict. What's strange about that conflict is that we know the ship France claims that was harassed by a Turkish ship was fueled by Turkish navy half an hour before the supposed incident. Meanwhile, Italian foreign minister was meeting with Libyan prime minister of the UN-recognized government as well as conducting military exercises with Turkey on the Mediterranean. It's hard to figure out what France wants here. Is it purely its hatred of Turkey?
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  2. #62
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Emmanuel Macron: 'Turkey is playing a dangerous game in Libya'


    Macron's latest comments would baffle even the most zealous critics of Turkey. Macron is blaming Turkey for its support of the UN-recognized government of Tripoli against Haftar while repeating his calling of NATO brain dead over a supposed to naval conflict.
    Turkey is also fueling the conflict by violating the arms embargo on Libya. Rejecting ceasefires too.

    What's strange about that conflict is that we know the ship France claims that was harassed by a Turkish ship was fueled by Turkish navy half an hour before the supposed incident. Meanwhile, Italian foreign minister was meeting with Libyan prime minister of the UN-recognized government as well as conducting military exercises with Turkey on the Mediterranean. It's hard to figure out what France wants here. Is it purely its hatred of Turkey?
    Opposing interests more like it.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Turkey is also fueling the conflict by violating the arms embargo on Libya. Rejecting ceasefires too.
    Opposing interests more like it.
    Was France not violating the embargo when it supplied weapons to Haftar? They just try to do it more discreetly. By no means I am denying that Turkey is supplying weapons to the UN-recognized Libyan government. Given Haftar, I support it at face value. It was Haftar along with his allies rejecting ceasefires when they were on the offensive. What interest does France sees in Libya. It's one thing to support a party to a conflict but this?

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Was France not violating the embargo when it supplied weapons to Haftar?
    I never said they didn't. Though i think most French support in terms of arms and general weapons came before the start of this conflict.

    They just try to do it more discreetly. By no means I am denying that Turkey is supplying weapons to the UN-recognized Libyan government. Given Haftar, I support it at face value. It was Haftar along with his allies rejecting ceasefires when they were on the offensive. What interest does France sees in Libya. It's one thing to support a party to a conflict but this?

    France has oil interests in Libya and honestly its nothing but a continuing trend of France to support authoritarian leaders in Africa to cement its influence/control in the region.

    In Turkey's case they are supporting the GNA to combat UAE and Egyptian influence in the region while securing access to the resources and maritime boundaries of the Eastern Mediterranean. The GNA having ties to the Muslim Brotherhood is also another reason Turkey is involved in Libya.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    France and Turkey never had much stake in each other.
    France has a large Armenian community.
    Since Mitterand, they had been sympathetic to the Kurdish cause and there is a strong diaspora there.

    Turkey had been turning into an authoritarian dictatorship that smashes through human rights at a rate that leaves no sympathy for anything Turkey does.
    And most importantly, France has about 10% of Muslim population, and what kind of ideological-inclination those Muslims will have is quite important for France. ISIS and AQ had been most active against France and Belgium.
    France can see that Turkey's expansion in Syria and in Libya empowers Islamist groups which can build strong ties to Muslim community in France. France would rather back the Kurds like in Syria who has a much better record of "secularizing" and "pacfiying" Muslims as this point in history compared to secular legacy of Turkey.

    And there is also French companys stakes and the rent in Libya.

    So yeah, French situation is to an extend hypocritical, but no more than Turkey. I'd rather take the influence of an institutionally strong democracy than an islamo-nationalist autocracy like Turkey in Libya, so thats my bias. As a Turkish citizen who has seen first hand the rent-gang of AKP-MHP alliance in pillaging our country and how we planted Islamist seeds wherever we went, I'd rather back France againt my country.
    The war is not between nations, it is between ideologies.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Both sides are fueling the conflict and pro-longing it. At this point they can go fight it out. As long they don't involve the US.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Was France not violating the embargo when it supplied weapons to Haftar? They just try to do it more discreetly. By no means I am denying that Turkey is supplying weapons to the UN-recognized Libyan government. Given Haftar, I support it at face value. It was Haftar along with his allies rejecting ceasefires when they were on the offensive. What interest does France sees in Libya. It's one thing to support a party to a conflict but this?

    Vive la France

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  8. #68
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Both sides are fueling the conflict and pro-longing it. At this point they can go fight it out. As long they don't involve the US.
    don't worry. The US always involves itself. Never the other way round

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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  9. #69
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    don't worry. The US always involves itself. Never the other way round
    US hasn't shown much interest up until recently and thats due to Russia. I don't think the US will seriously involve itself because picking sides in this conflict pits them against fellow allies.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Haven't noticed the Russians had asked for help

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Haven't noticed the Russians had asked for help
    Maybe they should since the LNA and Russia's mercenaries didn't turn the tide.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    them leaving kinda did

    But you said the US only got involved because of the Russians, and you said the others should simply fight it out as long as they don't involve the US. So did the Russians involve the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    them leaving kinda did

    But you said the US only got involved because of the Russians, and you said the others should simply fight it out as long as they don't involve the US. So did the Russians involve the US?
    You don't get it do you? The US and Russia being rivals and all seeking to confront each other's growing influence in regions around the world? Did you really not know that?

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    I do get that. Do you get the logical contradiction in your statements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I do get that. Do you get the logical contradiction in your statements?
    No logical contradiction here. When i refered to the others involving the US i meant their specific spats. I probably wasn't clear when i said the US was getting involved because of Russia. The US still really isn't part of the conflict. The US is making noise over Russian involvement (specifically over Russian aircraft spotted in Libya) but the US hasn't actually done anything or is showing signs of doing anything. At least not right now.

  16. #76

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    Turkey Has Eclipsed Emmanuel Macron's Libya Dreams
    The jab is on the nose: Macron’s pronouncements on Libya have devolved from hyperbole and hypocrisy to something approaching hysteria. Having backed a suspected war criminal against a United Nations-recognized government in Tripoli, Macron now accuses Turkey of “playing a dangerous game” in Libya. And having lost any leverage France might have had in the civil war, he avers that he “will not tolerate” the Turkish interference.

    Perhaps he suffers from a lapse in memory. Given all the recent twists and turns in the Libyan civil war, and the complexities introduced by at least a dozen foreign players, France’s foundational contribution to the conflict might get lost in the shuffle.
    Macron's latest conduct is certainly amateurish. Not because he's opposing Turkey but the way he's doing it. I expected better of him.
    The Armenian Issue

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    I actually just read that article. Marcon is just upset Turkey is upending the conflict while France's role has diminished greatly.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    Greece already announced Hellenic Navies mobilization - under hellenicnavy.gr you can support their efforts to modernize their Ships with some financial support via IBAN 9501 0002 4000 000 0002 6810 2 <-- Investment fund of National Central Bank of Greece.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    OT: Taking into consideration the fact that in our latest combined forces Military exercise (is that even the correct term???) last week each participant vessel/airplane/helicopter shot just 1 missle, we can use any funding possible

    As far as the "mobilization" is concerned, it's the usual rumor that circulates every couple of months since the time I was born or so, literally....


    I can't see anything more than a stalemate down there, Egypt won't allow Saraz's forces to advance into the Cyrenaica, but at the same time won't commit troops,resources and diplomatic goodwill to help Haftar recapture lost territories. Unless something drastically changes in the makeup of the blocs supporting each side, we have a de facto breakup of the former Libyan State into Tripolitania and Cyrenaica....
    Last edited by Beorn; June 26, 2020 at 05:36 PM.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Meanwhile in Libya...

    France recently pulled out of a NATO Mediterranean mission, called Operation Sea Guardian, as a new escalation with its relations with Turkey.

    France escalates Turkey dispute by quitting Nato naval mission
    France has suspended involvement in a Nato Mediterranean Sea mission over an incident with Turkish warships, in a sign of deepening tensions between the two members of the transatlantic military alliance.

    Paris said on Wednesday that it had written to Nato to pull out temporarily from Operation Sea Guardian off the coast of war-racked Libya, until it receives responses to requests about the run-in with Ankara.
    The run-in in question there is France's claim that Turkish ships harassed French frigate Courbet. This was seen as an absurd accusation by Turkey at the time as they pointed out Turkish ships supplied fuel to Courbet about half an hour before the claimed incident. Per France's request a classified NATO probe was opened. There are rumors (calling them "rumors" since while I've heard it from reputable journalists on TV I couldn't find satisfactory sources online so far to link to) that the report so far doesn't validate French claims and only a few NATO countries are backing French allegations. French decision to pull out of Operation Sea Guardian seems to corroborate those rumors.

    Turkish envoy says France suspending role in NATO naval mission
    Ties between NATO allies France and Turkey have soured in recent weeks over Libya, Northern Syria and drilling in the eastern Mediterranean.

    France has been especially angry after accusing Turkish warships of being aggressive towards its Courbet warship after it attempted to inspect a vessel in June that it suspected was violating a United Nations arms embargo on Libya. The Courbet was operating in the NATO Sea Guardian operation.

    NATO opened an investigation after France protested during an alliance defence ministers meeting in June.

    “It seems that the NATO experts did not reach the same conclusion. I had the information yesterday, it seems that the Courbet is withdrawing from this NATO exercise,” envoy Ismail Hakki Musa told a hearing in the French Senate.
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