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Thread: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

  1. #1
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Icon5 The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Putting aside melee attack, missile attack, or the cavalry charge bonus, which cavalry units have the greatest amount of defense and in particular armor? Usually the units with the most armor have the greatest amount of defense, but other factors like defense skill and the quality/size of their shield are taken into account. As the Romans, you get great heavy infantry in all three eras, Camillan, Polybian, and especially the Marian period (with generally larger Latin-Roman legionary units than previous ones). However, the heaviest cavalry units of other factions are not available, only the mid-tier ones. From what I've seen the heaviest cavalry available to the Romans are the Scythian nobles, with 7 armor points, just one point above the maxed out, fully armored and reformed Celtic Donnoi Eporedoi and elite Boii cavalry (also available as recruits for the Romans).

    Obviously the Hellenistic factions have the Kataphractoi unit. Even Koinon Hellenon can recruit it in the Near East, despite being shut off from most other elite units belonging to other Hellenistic factions. Obviously the heaviest units available to the Scythians, Saka, Armenians/Hayasdan, and Parthians are their own unique cataphracts and bodyguards. I'm assuming the armored Indian elephant is the most armored mounted unit for the Taksashila faction, but I don't think any of their regular cavalry is that heavy from what I've seen. The Carthaginians obviously have their own elite cavalry, but the Sabaeans and Nabataeans are just nothing but light and mid-range cavalry, right? The Getai have a decent field of heavy cavalry options with the heavy-hitting Tarabostes and the javelin-wielding Thracian noble cavalry (the latter of which have 5 armor points, the same as Equites Auxilium for the Romans).

    Would someone like to compile a list of what they know? I guess this can all be gleaned from the export_descr_unit file, but it's rather tedious to go through it all. EDIT: Just for fun, here are some delicious Hellenistic kataphractoi:

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  2. #2

    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    If you count AoR units, you'll get into a huge mess, especially due to armour upgrades, since it appears that not every faction can upgrade all units fully (at least I wasn't able to get second armour upgrade for my Ambaktoi Kingtoi as Pontos so far), and armour upgrades add in practice more than 1 armour points each. Due to this, I think toughest AoR cavalry unit would be Galatian cavalry, with 5 armour, 3 shield and two upgrades available, which makes them actually tougher than Skythian nobles...in fact, they might be, thanks to their high secondary attack, best melee AoR cavalry in game.

    Armoured cavalry is, however, much rarer as you go west, and I believe Eporedoi Donnoi are best armoured cavalry available to anyone west of Balkans.
    Last edited by Sar1n; April 07, 2019 at 09:08 PM.

  3. #3
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    If you count AoR units, you'll get into a huge mess, especially due to armour upgrades, since it appears that not every faction can upgrade all units fully (at least I wasn't able to get second armour upgrade for my Ambaktoi Kingtoi as Pontos so far), and armour upgrades add in practice more than 1 armour points each. Due to this, I think toughest AoR cavalry unit would be Galatian cavalry, with 5 armour, 3 shield and two upgrades available, which makes them actually tougher than Skythian nobles...in fact, they might be, thanks to their high secondary attack, best melee AoR cavalry in game.

    Armoured cavalry is, however, much rarer as you go west, and I believe Eporedoi Donnoi are best armoured cavalry available to anyone west of Balkans.
    Pretty much. I love the Galatian cavalry, colonist swordsmen and retainer spearmen infantry, some of the best units in the game.

    I think you're right about the Eporedoi Donnoi cavalry of the continental Celtic factions. The second heaviest, with one or two armor points less, would be the Triveri cavalry of Germania and Volcae cavalry of southwestern Gaul. I don't think any of the Iberian cavalry units are particularly heavy, even if they are effective. The elite ones available for recruitment by other factions, the Celtiberian Riders and the Lusitanian Ippones, have like 3 or 4 armor I think, while others like the Cantabri only have one armor point! I think the (relatively new) Ilergetes/Ilergetan cavalry of northeastern Iberia have three armor points if I remember correctly. That being said, the Italic/Illyrian Histro-Venetic cavalry and the Delmato-Pannonian cavalry actually both have five armor points, just one armor point less than Eporedoi Donnoi! That also puts them on the same tier as the Equites Auxilium and Equites Polybian cavalry.

    As for the Greeks, I think the Thessalikoi cavalry are one armor point above Lydian lancers, but both are slightly more armored than the javelin skirmishing Lonchophoroi Hippeis or even the Aspidiotai Hippeis lancers. It's great that Rome can recruit all of these too! Unfortunately, though, Rome can never recruit the elite Hetairoi. That's a shame.

  4. #4
    Genava's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    would be the Triveri cavalry of Germania
    https://books.google.ch/books?id=JZL...rmanic&f=false
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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    It won't allow me to read what you've linked to there at GB. Would you care to summarize what it says, please? You've made me curious about it now.

    Also, say what you want about Iberian cavalry being generally lighter than the Gallic and Boii elites or the Italic, Illyrian, Carthaginian, Numidian and Greek cavalry elite. The Iberian cavalry choices are at least more heavily armored than the Pritanoi in the British Isles. Each unit there aside from the Markakoi cavalry and Arioi infantry has like 1 armor point. LOL. They make up for it somewhat by having some defense skill and shields, but not by much.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    I wonder why you did not mention Igallidan-Numidian nobles. They start with only 3 armour but got two upgrades, and with their decent melee and superb skirmisher power-16 attack and 6 ammo-they seem to be great workhorse cavalry, especially since they should be quite plentiful after Marian reforms, since they should be recruitable at at least six provinces....

  7. #7

    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Re the Celtic/Galatian noble cav, don’t the armor upgrades actually provide 2.5 bonus each, even though it only shows up as +1?

    So, fully reformed, Celtic cav end up with like 9 armor and Galatians with 10.

    Edit: speaking of AoR heavy cav, I think a ton of factions end up being able to recruit Kataphractoi. They’re not the most cost effective heavy lancers, but if you’re drowning in mnai and really want something with 28 charge value...

    Also I love their unit models.
    Last edited by Krampus; April 08, 2019 at 09:15 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krampus View Post
    Re the Celtic/Galatian noble cav, don’t the armor upgrades actually provide 2.5 bonus each, even though it only shows up as +1?

    So, fully reformed, Celtic cav end up with like 9 armor and Galatians with 10.

    Edit: speaking of AoR heavy cav, I think a ton of factions end up being able to recruit Kataphractoi. They’re not the most cost effective heavy lancers, but if you’re drowning in mnai and really want something with 28 charge value...

    Also I love their unit models.
    It's somewhat less than 2.5 per upgrade, but more than 1. Had it been 2.5, they'd be toughest cavalry in game, but try to test a custom battle against Saka cataphracts, even on medium, if you manuever around to avoid charge, Galatians will lose in melee. Both units have same secondary attack, Sakans have 10 armour+9 skill, Galatians have 5 armour, 7 skill, 3 shield+two upgrades, so they should have a little advantage had the armour upgrade been truly 2.5.

    Edit: also, best looking capathracts are Armenian ones.
    Last edited by Sar1n; April 08, 2019 at 12:11 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    I still don't get how an armor upgrade registers as +1 to armor, but is actually more. It shouldn't work like that.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    @Sar1n, there’s lots of folks who say that the bonus is around 2/2.5.

    Admittedly I don’t know where these #s came from or how people discovered it. And I haven’t playtested unit vs unit in a custom, and I’m in no place to deny the results you had, but are you sure that there weren’t other reasons why the Saka Cataphracts won? Perhaps the terrain bonus/penalty, heat stat, unit discipline/spacing? I’m away from the edu so I don’t know them off the top of my head.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Sakan cataphracts have worse terrain/climate penalties than Galatians, same discipline and morale...can't really think of anything that would make the difference...

  12. #12
    Genava's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    It won't allow me to read what you've linked to there at GB. Would you care to summarize what it says, please? You've made me curious about it now.
    Ah sorry. It is pointing out the lack of indication for a germanic origin of the Treviri. In fact, the account of Tacitus on the subject is very late and the post-caesarean period is known to have been the moment where germans migrated close to the border.

    Here the page:
    https://ibb.co/nMC1rZH
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

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    alex33's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Nabataeans will get their Late Hetairoi equivalent eventualy. They are maybe shielded lancers but that depends on how the final concept looks like



  14. #14
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    I wonder why you did not mention Igallidan-Numidian nobles. They start with only 3 armour but got two upgrades, and with their decent melee and superb skirmisher power-16 attack and 6 ammo-they seem to be great workhorse cavalry, especially since they should be quite plentiful after Marian reforms, since they should be recruitable at at least six provinces....
    You might want to check your glasses prescription there, bro, because I clearly mentioned the Numidian elite cavalry in the very post right before yours here. See the time stamp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Ah sorry. It is pointing out the lack of indication for a germanic origin of the Treviri. In fact, the account of Tacitus on the subject is very late and the post-caesarean period is known to have been the moment where germans migrated close to the border.

    Here the page:
    https://ibb.co/nMC1rZH
    Cool! Thanks for sharing, although I wasn't claiming that they were Germanic. I merely said they came from Germania, which is still true even if that area was inhabited at the time by Celtic peoples instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by alex33 View Post
    Nabataeans will get their Late Hetairoi equivalent eventualy. They are maybe shielded lancers but that depends on how the final concept looks like
    Interesting! I can't wait to see the upgraded model. Would it be available for recruitment by other factions in an allied oligarchy or province, or would it be exclusive to their faction?

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    Genava's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    I merely said they came from Germania, which is still true even if that area was inhabited at the time by Celtic peoples instead.
    Technically the Treveri are on the other side of the Rhine, thus not in "Germania". However, Romans include the region in the Germania Superior province during the Augustean period. Although, this province doesn't make any sense at all from its limits

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Technically the Treveri are on the other side of the Rhine, thus not in "Germania". However, Romans include the region in the Germania Superior province during the Augustean period. Although, this province doesn't make any sense at all from its limits

    Weren't the boundaries of "Germania" kind of hazy anyway, not just defined by the Rhine? I was under the impression that lands immediately west of the Rhine were also traditionally considered part of Germania, both before and after they were conquered and settled by the Romans in the 1st century BC. I don't think the Romans were being entirely cheeky when later in the 1st century AD they named those provinces Germania Superior and Germania Inferior in what is now Western Germany. I think they had always viewed those territories as vaguely being part of Germania, at the very least the borderlands between Germania and Gaul.

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    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I still don't get how an armor upgrade registers as +1 to armor, but is actually more. It shouldn't work like that.
    Welcome to the joy of modding M2TW, where half the game is knowing what doesn't work the way it is supposed to.

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    Genava's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Weren't the boundaries of "Germania" kind of hazy anyway, not just defined by the Rhine? I was under the impression that lands immediately west of the Rhine were also traditionally considered part of Germania, both before and after they were conquered and settled by the Romans in the 1st century BC. I don't think the Romans were being entirely cheeky when later in the 1st century AD they named those provinces Germania Superior and Germania Inferior in what is now Western Germany. I think they had always viewed those territories as vaguely being part of Germania, at the very least the borderlands between Germania and Gaul.
    Well, yes and no. The province of Germania superior is far beyond the Rhine. My country was mostly incorporated in it for a long moment:
    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suisse...H_Rom_1-fr.png

    The Swiss plateau was a part of Germania superior from the Lake Geneva to the Lake Constance... I think there is really no geographical wisdom in this division. Probably they put in it everything that could be subject to germanic incursions during the Imperial period.

    While the main city of the Trevires was in the province Belgica (Augusta Treverorum, today known as Trier) and their southern territory in the province Germania Superior (I think they remove it on purpose to weaken them).

    Clearly, Romans didn't care about geography as they didn't care about ethnology either. Caesar implicitly said that the Rhine was the limit for Germania, this is the only basis I think that is consistent.
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Welcome to the joy of modding M2TW, where half the game is knowing what doesn't work the way it is supposed to.
    So they actually add how much? Seeing the code it would seem 2.5 But I dont know how the game interprets that now xD

    We will either find a way, or make one.



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    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: The heaviest cavalry units available to each faction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    So they actually add how much? Seeing the code it would seem 2.5 But I dont know how the game interprets that now xD
    We're pretty sure (as much as you ever can be with this engine...) that it's 2.5 per upgrade.

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