Hayastan as name asynchronous to EBII period?

[Septentrionalis]

I did some superficial reading on Armenia and found out that the name Hayastan, with the Persian suffix -stan, only came about right after the period of classical antiquity or at least after the time of the Western Roman Empire. At any rate, it appears to be out of place in the period that Europa Barbarorum covers. Am I outright wrong or was the name consciously chosen for some reason? Or is it just oversight that could be corrected?

[Sarkiss]

Hayasdan is the name inherited from EB1. we corrected it to a much more common Hayastan (with a 't'). i could not find a documented earlier name for the faction, hence it stayed the way it is. i flirted with the idea of potential renaming the faction using the dynastic name but that would not be an ideal match either as other factions do not follow this formula. besides, dynasties often die, both historically and in-game. -stan isnt too far off the mark as Yervanduni that rule Armenia during the start of the game are descendants of a naturalised Persian aristocracy. later Artashesyan/Artaxiad dynasty claimed that their scions of Yervanduni. our period iirc, there are lots of futures in the mod that are not exactly contemporary but oftentimes we have no credible alternatives and they are the closest we can get to authenticity-wise.

[Jurand of Cracow]

The historical mods are best with such problems, we'd plenty similar in the SSHIP, eg. for the Lithuanian capital.

[Septentrionalis]

Sarkiss, thank you for the detailed explanation. I agree that the current spelling seems more reasonable.

However, Wikipedia suggests that there is indeed a native name that predates Hayastan. It is Haykʿ, in which the last character that resembles an apostrophe apparently stands for aspiration or a glottal fricative. The word is described as archaic and poetic in modern language. Having that as Haykh in the game could be considered. There is also the alternative Mec Haykh, Greater Armenia, for the state that existed from 190 BCE to the 5th century CE.

I am not a scholar on anything Armenian, but to me this seems legit.

[Sarkiss]

thanks for the interest in the matter. Wikipedia isnt the most reliable of sources, obviously. there is no such thing as Haykh. Hayk (or Hayq) could refer to several things - from the name of the legendary Armenian progenitor to the geographical location to the ethnos/people themselves, to the actual male name. Mets Hayk is in the game, its a province of Great(er) Armenia. I dont think naming faction Mets Hayk would be appropriate because of the narrow definition of the term essentially referring to a single province that happened to be Artashes/Artaxias I the Conquerors domain (which he expanded) upon his split from the Seleukids. after a while Artashes was brought back under Seleukid suzerainty, though the arrangement did not last and dynasty was established. but there is also another Armenian province that is under Yervanduni control at the games start and needs to be accounted for - Tsopk/Sophene (that was later separated and governed by Zareh/Zariadres). and another - Pokr Hayk/Lesser Armenia. all three comprise the core Hay lands that player needs to conquer and consolidate and Hayastan is probably a more appropriate all encompassing political term for such a conglomerate. there are plenty of Persian loanwords in Armenian (incidentally, Russia is Rusastan in Armenian, for example), reflecting a long history of close connection between the two and origins of some of the Armenian nobility and dynasties. im not against finding a better suited alternative - both in terms of faction name and the coat of arms - but sources arent there, at least i didnt come across of them. if there is any credible, source-backed suggestion/s they would be most welcome. atm, i just dont see a viable/worthy alternative to justify the hassle associated with the name's change tbh.

[Septentrionalis]

Thank you for taking the trouble of explaining in detail! Given what you wrote, I agree that it is not in our interest to change the name in the game.

As for the Hayk/Haykh issue, whatever spelling form we use in Latin alphabet, it is merely a translitteration of the Armenian alphabet. Armenian has a phonetic distinction in between aspirated and non-aspirated voiceless plosives, and the the word for Hayk'/Haykh has the latter. It is not the same as the character for the plain /k/ sound in the Armenian script. So if the name was to be used, it should either be the one with an apostrophy (Hayk') or, if the apostrophe is not suited for names, be substituted with "h" (Haykh). Having just hayk would be slightly misleading. I think that those kinds of translitterations have been done with other languages as well in the game.

Looking at it now, apostrophies are used in other languages as well in the game, albeit to represent different sounds such as voiced pharyngeal fricative in Semitic.

[Septentrionalis]

I meant to write: "the word for Hayk'/Haykh has the former." I would have edited my message, but I have not been able to do that in many days because of some forum glitch.