Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Hehe. If Corbyn is anti-semite, than I'm anti-semite.If the Labour Party is antisemite, I'm antisemite. You should know that you can be pro-Palestine without being antisemite. Antisemitism does nothing for the Palestinian cause.

I did not call Corbyn an anti-Semite. The Labour party, as a whole, isn't either. However anti-Semetism has been allowed to fester within the party, in part by Corbyn himself.
Anti-Semetism plays a major part in their cause, which is why they teach it to their children through school and television. It is also a good way for them to gain support, seeing as anti-Semites are also going to be against Israel.

That being said,what's the official stance of the UK on Palestine?
From the www. Parliament UK,


More?

This is, btw, an extremely hypocritical stance for the UK to have, considering they were one of only 3 countries (together with Iraq and Pakistan) who recognised Jordanian annexation of the "West bank", Which was illegal for all the same reasons that they consider the Israeli occupation to be.
But either way, obviously that is their stance. How is this relevant? We were discussing the designation of Hamas as a terrorist organisation, the stance on the two state solution has absolutely nothing to do with that. You're just trying to change the subject.

UK voted in favour of Palestinians having more power in UN to lead largest country bloc in 2019, UN Vote on Palestine a Humiliating Defeat for US & its Envoy.



More recently, the enraged Jewish lobby in the UK regretted UK didn't vote against anti-Israel motion at United Nations accusing Israel of possible war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Again, absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.

I would says that democracy is getting out of hand in Israel. And Hungary, for example, Hungary to set up courts overseen directly by government - Reuters

And I would disagree. Our supreme court has 3 times cancelled laws that were meant to allow banishment of illegal aliens that had entered our country, no matter how much the Knesset attempted to amend the laws to accommodate the supreme court's decision. The citizens of southern Tel-Aviv do not deserve to suffer because the court decides that their lives are less important than those of illegals.

That must be the reason why "peace" deals (eg.the so called "deal of century") are concocted behind closed doors, to be imposed on the weaker parties. In this case, Palestine.

The deal hasn't even been revealed to Israel yet, as the Trump administration was waiting until after the election and the formation of a government.
There have been plenty of negotiations in more "open" conditions. Allow me to once again quote Bill Clinton on the one that took place at camp David, speaking about Yasser Arafat: "He did not negotiate in good faith; indeed, he did not negotiate at all. He just kept saying no to every offer, never making any counterproposals of his own,"

Don't say...Israel continues to expand its remaining settlements as well as settling new areas. Settlements have become the hallmark of the Israeli colonial project in the west Bank, since a long time ago, considering that anywhere between 600,000 to 750,000 or more Israeli Jews now live in the Occupied Territories.

The Maps of Israeli Settlements That Shocked Barack Obama | The New Yorker

There were also settlements in the Sinai peninsula and Gaza, did we annex those?

Except Corbyn did not voice support for Hamas's terror tactics. Does supporting Hamas means that you support their every single action? Just like if you are pro-Israeli does it mean you support Dahiya doctrine?

I wonder, would you have the same attitude if someone called ISIS their friends?

[PointOfViewGun]

I wonder, would you have the same attitude if someone called ISIS their friends?

Because ISIL is so analogous to Hamas? Sigh... Let's accept your logic. I would feel the same when someone calls Israel their friends. Corbyn didn't call Hamas his friend though...

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Because ISIL is so analogous to Hamas? Sigh... Let's accept your logic. I would feel the same when someone calls Israel their friends. Corbyn didn't call Hamas his friend though...

Then why does he regret doing it? Or are you trying to argue semantics?
From my point of view, they are, both would treat me the same.. though actually, no, I think ISIS would be content with letting me pay the Jizya.

[PointOfViewGun]

Then why does he regret doing it? Or are you trying to argue semantics?
From my point of view, they are, both would treat me the same.. though actually, no, I think ISIS would be content with letting me pay the Jizya.

I'm not really the one relying on semantics. Those who accused Corbyn of being an anti-semitic are. I actually watched the video where he is claimed to be calling Hamas and Hezbollah friends. He didn't. I expected better of Corbyn but he just gave in to the bullies' wishes and recanted from something he didn't do. Equating Hamas with ISIL, on the other hand, is a bigoted argument as much as it gets.

[Papay]

In fact Jewish settlers who go to the west bank from all over the world have more in common with ISIL than Hamas

[nhytgbvfeco2]

In fact Jewish settlers who go to the west bank from all over the world have more in common with ISIL than Hamas

Elaborate.
Have you abandoned your previous line of argument?

I'm not really the one relying on semantics. Those who accused Corbyn of being an anti-semitic are. I actually watched the video where he is claimed to be calling Hamas and Hezbollah friends. He didn't. I expected better of Corbyn but he just gave in to the bullies' wishes and recanted from something he didn't do. Equating Hamas with ISIL, on the other hand, is a bigoted argument as much as it gets.

He said "my friends in Hezbollah.. and my friends in Hamas". So yes, you are arguing semantics since he himself admitted that it wasn't fitting.
Sure it is.

[Aexodus]

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com...errorists/amp/

I really don’t know what more evidence we need to know Corbz sympathises with Islamists.

[PointOfViewGun]

Elaborate.
Have you abandoned your previous line of argument?
He said "my friends in Hezbollah.. and my friends in Hamas". So yes, you are arguing semantics since he himself admitted that it wasn't fitting.
Sure it is.

It's really hilarious that your own position relies on semantics and you have it in it to say that I'm arguing semantics. He said "... where our friends from Hezbollah will be speaking. I've also invited friends from Hamas to come and speak as well". He never stated any support for them or for their actions. Your position is evidently intellectually bankrupt.

The ironic part is that people think he is an anti-Semite just because he was not hostile towards Hamas and Hezbollah for doing the least violent action that can perform, to speak in a gathering.

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com...errorists/amp/
I really don’t know what more evidence we need to know Corbz sympathises with Islamists.

Actual evidence for a start would be nice.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It's really hilarious that your own position relies on semantics and you have it in it to say that I'm arguing semantics. He said "... where our friends from Hezbollah will be speaking. I've also invited friends from Hamas to come and speak as well". He never stated any support for them or for their actions. Your position is evidently intellectually bankrupt.

You yourself state that he called them friends, yet say that I'm arguing semantics. Calling them friends is an expression of support. So is campaigning for the release of those of them who were convicted for murder.

The ironic part is that people think he is an anti-Semite just because he was not hostile towards Hamas and Hezbollah for doing the least violent action that can perform, to speak in a gathering.

I never said he was, and don't think he is.

[PointOfViewGun]

You yourself state that he called them friends, yet say that I'm arguing semantics. Calling them friends is an expression of support. So is campaigning for the release of those of them who were convicted for murder.

Nope, I didn't state that he called Hamas and Hezbollah friends. You're using a semantics game to claim that. Its petty argumentation at best. Just because you refer to people from an organization who are scheduled to talk in an assembly as friends from those organizations doesn't mean you're expressing support for them just like if he said "friends from Israel" it would not mean he somehow supports West Bank settlements.

I never said he was, and don't think he is.

I didn't say you did. It was a general comment. Though you seem to be implying towards claiming that he supported them.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Nope, I didn't state that he called Hamas and Hezbollah friends. You're using a semantics game to claim that.

No, you're the one using semantics to try and deny that. Saying "my friends from Hamas" means that the people in the Hamas terrorist organisation are his friends, since you can't be friends with an organisation, only the people in it. Unless you want to try and argue that he has very specific friends who happen to be in Hamas, that is what it means.

Its petty argumentation at best. Just because you refer to people from an organization who are scheduled to talk in an assembly as friends from those organizations doesn't mean you're expressing support for them just like if he said "friends from Israel" it would not mean he somehow supports West Bank settlements.

There are a lot of things you can support about Israel without even touching on the settlement subject, which is a minor one. Hamas's entire existence is about prolonging, or bringing a bloody end to, the conflict with Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, as recognised by the union of states that Corbyn's country happens to be part of.

I didn't say you did. It was a general comment. Though you seem to be implying towards claiming that he supported them.

I do think that he does, yes. If someone were to talk about having negotiations with ISIS, I'd equally take issue with them saying "I invite my friends from ISIS to come to the talks".

[Heathen Hammer]

Lol. Most Russian's in Israel (me included) vote overwhelmingly right wing. Most of them vote for Netanyahu, or Lieberman.

Many of them have business and family ties in Russia. Not to mention that there is no such thing as "former KGB", so to speak...

[PointOfViewGun]

No, you're the one using semantics to try and deny that. Saying "my friends from Hamas" means that the people in the Hamas terrorist organisation are his friends, since you can't be friends with an organisation, only the people in it. Unless you want to try and argue that he has very specific friends who happen to be in Hamas, that is what it means.

Sigh... Not much more I can say against such petty logic. The guy was just being nice in recognition of the most peaceful thing someone could do, which is to talk in an assembly.

There are a lot of things you can support about Israel without even touching on the settlement subject, which is a minor one. Hamas's entire existence is about prolonging, or bringing a bloody end to, the conflict with Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, as recognised by the union of states that Corbyn's country happens to be part of.

UK did not designate Hamas as a whole as a terror organization. Saying that Hamas's sole purpose is to prolong or bring a bloody end to the conflict with Israel makes up a very bigoted argument. Such a bigoted position is what Israel always used against Hamas, of course, starting with the 2006 elections.

I do think that he does, yes. If someone were to talk about having negotiations with ISIS, I'd equally take issue with them saying "I invite my friends from ISIS to come to the talks".

None of that means that he supports Hamas' actions just like it would not mean he supports Israel's actions.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Many of them have business and family ties in Russia. Not to mention that there is no such thing as "former KGB", so to speak...

I have family in Russia. So? Is that supposed to make me vote for a socialist party?

Sigh... Not much more I can say against such petty logic. The guy was just being nice in recognition of the most peaceful thing someone could do, which is to talk in an assembly.

How petty of me, taking issue with someone calling members of a terrorist organisation friends.

UK did not designate Hamas as a whole as a terror organization. Saying that Hamas's sole purpose is to prolong or bring a bloody end to the conflict with Israel makes up a very bigoted argument. Such a bigoted position is what Israel always used against Hamas, of course, starting with the 2006 elections.

I was talking about the EU, not the UK. "as recognised by the union of states that Corbyn's country happens to be part of." By the union his country is part of, meaning the European union.
Have you read the Hamas chapter? I imagine you know which part I am referring to. Hamas's ally in Gaza, the "Islamic Jihad" (a charming name) is also not particularly pro-peace.

None of that means that he supports Hamas' actions just like it would not mean he supports Israel's actions.

Hard to support an organisation without supporting any of its actions.

[PointOfViewGun]

How petty of me, taking issue with someone calling members of a terrorist organisation friends.

Correction: you're taking issue with someone using a figure of speech to announce people from an organization that you consider a terror organization.

I was talking about the EU, not the UK. "as recognised by the union of states that Corbyn's country happens to be part of." By the union his country is part of, meaning the European union.
Have you read the Hamas chapter? I imagine you know which part I am referring to. Hamas's ally in Gaza, the "Islamic Jihad" (a charming name) is also not particularly pro-peace.

We know very well what the process have been in the past decade or two. You are pushing an interpretation that ignores the reality of that.

Hard to support an organisation without supporting any of its actions.

Same goes for Israel then.

[Ludicus]

We were discussing the designation of Hamas as a terrorist organisation

And again, as I have already told you, the three Angolan liberation movements were also accused (by us) of being terrorist organizations.And yes, they used terrorism to achieve their ends, killing hundreds of innocent civilians.



In 1985 Ronald Reagan invited Savimbi, the leader of UNITA to the White House and hailed him a "freedom fighter" for his efforts to oust the leftist, terrorist leader of MPLA, the party that has ruled Angola since its independence in 1975. Bush did the same thing in 1990.
As Glenn Greenwald writes:

The application of the term "Terrorist" by the U.S. Government has nothing to do with how that term is commonly understood, but is instead exploited solely as a means to punish those who defy U.S. dictates and reward those who advance American interests and those of its allies (especially Israel). Thus, this Terror group is complying with U.S. demands, has been previously trained by the U.S. itself, and is perpetrating its violence on behalf of a key American client state and against a key American enemy, and -- presto -- it is no longer a "foreign Terrorist organization."

-----

Now, feel free to call me "antisemite". I'm with Amos Oz,
Interview,
Q. Why have you long been a strong supporter of the two-state solution?

A. I have been advocating this idea for 50 years. It is very simple. We are speaking about a very small house — about the size of Denmark. It's the one and only homeland of the Jews, it's also the one and only homeland of the Palestinian Arabs.
We cannot become one happy family because we are not one, we are not happy, we are not family. We are two unhappy families. We have to divide the house into two smaller next-door apartments. There is no point in even fantasizing that after 100 years of bloodshed and anger and conflict Jews and Arabs will jump into a honeymoon bed and start making love not war.

Every country in the world should follow the example of President Trump and move the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. But simultaneously there should be an embassy of all countries in the world in East Jerusalem as the capital of the state of Palestine.

Q.As a little boy, you were yourself a militant Zionist. Why?

A. I thought that the cause of the Zionist Jews is 100 percent right and anyone who resents or objects or interrupts this cause is an anti-Semite, a racist, a monster. It took me some time to realize that the fulfillment of the dreams of the Jews had a cost. And to a large extent the Palestinian Arabs had to pay this cost. I didn't realize this as a child. I do realize it now.

Q. So what is your suggestion?

A. My suggestion is to approach Abu Mazen [Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas] and to accept the terms - which the whole world knows - for a two-state-solution and coexistence between Israel and the West Bank: Two capitals in Jerusalem, a mutually agreed territorial modification, removal of most of the Jewish settlements from the West Bank.

Q.Can you imagine a Palestinian state that is not hostile toward Israel?

A. Absolutely. I believe the majority of the Palestinians are not in love with Israel, but they do accept with clenched teeth that the Israeli Jews are not going anywhere, just like the majority of Israeli Jews - unhappily and with clenched teeth - accept that the Palestinians are here to stay. This is a basis not for a honeymoon, but perhaps for a fair divorce just like the case of the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

Q.Many people argue that the two-state-solution is dead, given how far the building of settlements and roads in the West Bank has proceeded.

A. Well, I have seen some years ago Prime Minister Ariel Sharon remove all the Jewish settlements and the Jewish military from Gaza in about 36 hours and without bloodshed. I'm not suggesting that that will repeat itself in the West Bank so easily, but I believe that nothing in the world is irrevocable except death.

Q. Hamas is presently demanding that the blockade of the Gaza Strip be lifted...

A. I am absolutely for it. I think that the blockade should be removed. I think plenty of international, Arab and Israeli resources should be pumped into the Gaza strip in return for effective demilitarization.

Q. You wrote 50 years ago that "even an unavoidable occupation is a corrupting occupation."

A. I do not always agree with myself, but here I still agree with myself. Occupation is corrupting, even if it is unavoidable. Brutality, chauvinism, narrow-mindedness, xenophobia are the usual syndromes of conflict and occupation. But the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is no longer unavoidable.
...But I will tell you what my hope and prayer for the future of Israel is. I would like to see Israel removed once and for all from the front pages of all the newspapers in the world and instead conquer, occupy and build settlements in the literary, arts, music and architecture supplements. This is my dream for the future.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Correction: you're taking issue with someone using a figure of speech to announce people from an organization that you consider a terror organization.

It's the choice of words that I take issue with, other figures of speech would have been fine.

We know very well what the process have been in the past decade or two. You are pushing an interpretation that ignores the reality of that.

Not sure what you're talking about.

Same goes for Israel then.

Again, the settlements are just a tiny part of what makes up Israel, and you can easily support any of the myriad of other things about the country that have nothing to do with the settlements. This isn't the case for Hamas, whose entire purpose is to continue the armed conflict now that Fatah has forsaken it.

And again, as I have already told you, the three Angolan liberation movements were also accused (by us) of being terrorist organizations.And yes, they used terrorism to achieve their ends, killing hundreds of innocent civilians.



In 1985 Ronald Reagan invited Savimbi, the leader of UNITA to the White House and hailed him a "freedom fighter" for his efforts to oust the leftist, terrorist leader of MPLA, the party that has ruled Angola since its independence in 1975. Bush did the same thing in 1990.
As Glenn Greenwald writes:

-----

You're continuing to miss my point. The Angolan rebels fought to achieve independence for Angola, not the destruction of Portugal. Hamas fights to achieve the destruction of Israel.

Now, feel free to call me "antisemite".

I'm not one of those people who conflates any and all criticism of Israel with anti-semetism, shame on you for assuming that I am.

I'm with Amos Oz,
Interview,
Q. Why have you long been a strong supporter of the two-state solution?

A. I have been advocating this idea for 50 years. It is very simple. We are speaking about a very small house — about the size of Denmark. It's the one and only homeland of the Jews, it's also the one and only homeland of the Palestinian Arabs.
We cannot become one happy family because we are not one, we are not happy, we are not family. We are two unhappy families. We have to divide the house into two smaller next-door apartments. There is no point in even fantasizing that after 100 years of bloodshed and anger and conflict Jews and Arabs will jump into a honeymoon bed and start making love not war.

I agree, something you'd have realised had to read my posts properly rather than skimming through and forcing me to repeat myself every time.

Q.

So what is your suggestion?

A. My suggestion is to approach Abu Mazen [Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas] and to accept the terms - which the whole world knows - for a two-state-solution and coexistence between Israel and the West Bank: Two capitals in Jerusalem, a mutually agreed territorial modification, removal of most of the Jewish settlements from the West Bank.

Easier said than done. No palestinian leader has ever agreed to any territorial modification.

Q.Can you imagine a Palestinian state that is not hostile toward Israel?

A. Absolutely. I believe the majority of the Palestinians are not in love with Israel, but they do accept with clenched teeth that the Israeli Jews are not going anywhere, just like the majority of Israeli Jews - unhappily and with clenched teeth - accept that the Palestinians are here to stay. This is a basis not for a honeymoon, but perhaps for a fair divorce just like the case of the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

I don't see how this is at all equatable to Czechoslovakia. Czechs and Slovaks are two closely related people with no animosity between them. The Slovak government doesn't pay people for killing Czechs.

Q.Many people argue that the two-state-solution is dead, given how far the building of settlements and roads in the West Bank has proceeded.

A. Well, I have seen some years ago Prime Minister Ariel Sharon remove all the Jewish settlements and the Jewish military from Gaza in about 36 hours and without bloodshed. I'm not suggesting that that will repeat itself in the West Bank so easily, but I believe that nothing in the world is irrevocable except death.

Basically what I've been saying the whole time.

Q. Hamas is presently demanding that the blockade of the Gaza Strip be lifted...

A. I am absolutely for it. I think that the blockade should be removed. I think plenty of international, Arab and Israeli resources should be pumped into the Gaza strip in return for effective demilitarization.

Simply naive. The blockade began because of Hamas. Because when the palestinians were given the option to choose between the Fatah who opted to end the armed conflict and begin a diplomatic approach, or the Hamas who continued the armed conflict and decreed that diplomacy won't work, they chose the latter.

Q. You wrote 50 years ago that "even an unavoidable occupation is a corrupting occupation."

A. I do not always agree with myself, but here I still agree with myself. Occupation is corrupting, even if it is unavoidable. Brutality, chauvinism, narrow-mindedness, xenophobia are the usual syndromes of conflict and occupation. But the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is no longer unavoidable.
...But I will tell you what my hope and prayer for the future of Israel is. I would like to see Israel removed once and for all from the front pages of all the newspapers in the world and instead conquer, occupy and build settlements in the literary, arts, music and architecture supplements. This is my dream for the future.

Doesn't everyone wish for that? Well, almost everyone in Israel anyway. If only it were so easy. Hamas too wants Israel removed once and for all, but not just from the front pages of newspapers.

[PointOfViewGun]

Again, the settlements are just a tiny part of what makes up Israel, and you can easily support any of the myriad of other things about the country that have nothing to do with the settlements. This isn't the case for Hamas, whose entire purpose is to continue the armed conflict now that Fatah has forsaken it.

Tiny? Then Hamas' violent tactics are tiny as well. If we are to describe Hamas' entire purpose as continuing the armed conflict then the same is true for Israel.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Tiny? Then Hamas' violent tactics are tiny as well. If we are to describe Hamas' entire purpose as continuing the armed conflict then the same is true for Israel.

Yes, tiny. Insignificant in the grand scale of things. Not the case with Hamas. If Israel were to abandon the settlements tomorrow (which it has already done before in other areas such as Gaza and Sinai), It'd still be Israel. If Hamas were to abandon the armed conflict it would quickly disappear and be replaced by some other faction, likely the Islamic Jihad. Though I have a hard time imagining people in the west being as openly supportive of a group named "Islamic Jihad" as they are of Hamas.

[PointOfViewGun]

Yes, tiny. Insignificant in the grand scale of things. Not the case with Hamas. If Israel were to abandon the settlements tomorrow (which it has already done before in other areas such as Gaza and Sinai), It'd still be Israel. If Hamas were to abandon the armed conflict it would quickly disappear and be replaced by some other faction, likely the Islamic Jihad. Though I have a hard time imagining people in the west being as openly supportive of a group named "Islamic Jihad" as they are of Hamas.

There isn't much reality in your post. The settlements make up a significant portion of Israel. Settlers from West Bank and East Jerusalem make up quite a large portion of the Israeli population. Even if we only consider West Bank, it still makes up a significant portion. They are used as a creeping tool to slowly create a reality on the ground to force people to ignore any kind of legality just like it happened with Golan Heights. Israeli withdraw from unmanageable areas like Gaza or Sinai doesn't really render that false. They are not after thoughts. They are part of Israeli government policy. Also, it's not like the settlements are the only bad thing about Israel. What you say about Hamas is likely true for Israeli government as well...