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Thread: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

  1. #161
    Gigantus's Avatar The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by TimONeill View Post
    Why did you "cringe" at my site's title? It's a site dedicated to how some atheists get history wrong, it's aimed at atheists and it's written by ... an atheist. So, "History for Atheists". What else do you think should I have called it? And what the hell is wrong with that perfectly accurate and succinct title for a site about history ... for atheists?
    Seen too many "History for [insert who is perceived to have it wrong]" articles\sites

    Quote Originally Posted by TimONeill View Post
    "Tries"? Pardon? I support every single thing I say with either references, quotes, summaries of scholarship or a combination of those elements.
    Your support of 'it's not true' is based on Sagan who had it from another guy who had a grudge. Not the kind of support (it technically is support, agreed) I was looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by TimONeill View Post
    Again, pardon? What does "a relatively small disclaimer" mean here? Are you sure you know what the word "disclaimer" means?
    Poor choice of words, "minuscule paragraph in an extensive article" would have conveyed it better (see up).

    Quote Originally Posted by TimONeill View Post
    I would have thought it was pretty obvious that I can't give a "take" on that because we simply don't know. We do know that books in the ancient world were expensive, rare and fragile. So it is pretty obvious, in general terms, the tiny number of copies of those texts that were lost disintegrated over time and not enough copies were made to preserve them.
    Appreciated, would have been nice in the article.

    Quote Originally Posted by TimONeill View Post
    "Movies"? What?
    These two (roughly 60 minutes each): https://historyforatheists.com/2018/...led-dark-ages/

    Quote Originally Posted by TimONeill View Post
    That seems to be taking things rather personally. I can't see how I could be "ridiculing" you, given I didn't know you even existed until this morning.
    Given that it's not only the stance that gets ridiculed but the persons holding it as well, makes a response to it (feeling ridiculed), well, personal. I am fairly sure you did not have me personally in mind with those movies. Or anyone person in particular, if you wish to extend your argument.
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 25, 2019 at 01:12 AM.



  2. #162

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    Vedic and Sufi ascesis is primarily a factor of Orthopraxis. Because correct practice gives the desired, objective effects on the practicioner. Kinda like the ascesis of the ancient Alchemists, which was split into four fundamental major phases.
    That is very shallow, that simply because you perform the right rituals and go through the right motions it produces a deeper spirituality, which I say is nonsense. Simply because you repeat the right words and sounds does not produce a deeper spirituality or greater understanding as you claim. The ancient alchemist were inferior in every way to modern chemistry. Modern chemist can do more things, have greater predictive powers, precisely because they have a far greater understanding of the nature of things. That is why we can make material undreamt if by the ancients, plastics, carbon fibers, articial rubies, emeralds, diamonds that the ancients never could.

    Christian ascesis, on the other hand, is primarily sentimental. Though I would open an exception for the hesychasts of Mt. Athos, that's a real initiatic path and not just mysticism.
    Again, no facts or specific examples, just a bunch of meaningless claims. The Sufi are no less sentimental, and being able to mouth mraninglezs words or perform meaningless rituals does not make the Vedic religion superior or more advance, only more primitive in my opinion. Again, you haven't given any concrete examples, or cite specifics to support your claims. Frankly, what you are saying is gobbledygook. Merely saying g something without using concrete and specific facts to support argument did not prove what you say, but only shows your anti-bias. Christians changed the world, while the Vedic and Islam religion led to the rejection of the printing press for centuries and low levels of literacy, ignorance.


    So your comparison is fallacious, in the first place. Christianity has effectively shut down a lot of the things that were taken for granted in the transcendence of some ancient faiths of the Classical world, like Platonism and Pythagoreanism. Or even Ancient Egyptian hermeticism.
    Christianity replaced these other things that did not produced tangible, positive results with a system that did, and improved the daily life of mankind in ways that can be ojrctivrly measured. It is good that we have high levels.of literacy, higher than ever were achieved by Vedic and Islamic religions without outside pressure. It is good that we have reduced infant mortality to a fraction of what it was under the Islam Sufism and the Vedic culture, and India still has an infant mortality rate 10 times higher than Euorpean countries and the US. If you think high rates of illiteracy and high infant mortalitynrates are a good thing a good thing? That is what was achieved when Islamic Sufism predominated.

  3. #163

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    .. And let me add, Hesychasm is a very restricted process. Only the most seasoned monks who manage to enter Mt. Athos will ever get to practice it.

    As for Western Christianity, it has *never* ever had an objective dimension of ascesis within itself. It has no real initiation. It is impossible to obtain any genuine non-dual, transcendental insight in Western Christianity. Even the monastic aspect in this regard is just a residue, being purely sentimental. So the Christian world in the West, esp., became fairly closed to any genuine understanding of what insight wisdom and gnosis constitute.
    I could not disgree with you any more than I do. To claim that the lack of specific initiation makes Christianity inferior is a wrong, extemet my superficial and shallow argument. To say someones understanding is superior simply because they mouthed the he right words that they don't even truly understand I can't agree with. True mysticicism and understanding doesn't occur because you went through the specific set of motions an ape could imitate does not make a religion superior. True understanding come from within, not.going through the right motions.



    Again, you fail to provide real evidence or concrete specific examples to support your claims. For almost 300 years the Vedic religion rejected the printing press and the benefits it could have brought, and the same for the Islamic religions including the Sufism. Building things like telescopes we're also rejected by the Vedic and the Islamic world for centuries. Yet you appear thing dancing around in circles like the Whirly Dervish is somehow better. Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but so far you haven't provided real fact and concrete examples that I can see that actually support your claims.

  4. #164
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscase View Post
    OK, so Jesus was magic.

    You see, this is the part I am repeatedly amazed by. Otherwise reasonable people seem to be willing to just throw reason and expectations of consistency overboard when it comes to religion, when in just about every other situation these kinds of contradictions simply wouldn't be tolerated. That's what I'm really getting at here.
    chriscase,

    I don't think "was" is the right word for Jesus as His claim always is just as it always was to be the God of the living. Magic infers slight of hand as it were and is, but Jesus never did anything like that either. Religion is nothing out of the ordinary as we all do things religiously and yet these are called routines done by reasonable people of all walks of life. What really is funny is that reasonable people actually believe that everything came into being from a pond of soup after a big bang had set it all in motion billions of years ago so my question has to be where did the pond go and why is it that no more kinds are coming into the world? Oh yes we can breed within kinds but we have never bred outside of that, why? Could it really be that when Jesus finished creation it is reasonable to see that there are no more kinds to follow?

  5. #165

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    And let me say this: it is perfectly possible for you to experience what we would call "supernatural" or "immaterial" realities when you're following a path of initiation - these are actually just different levels of manifestation that our conscious normal dualistic perception won't be able to tackle. It is even possible if you worn yourself down with an exaggerate psychism, which breaches your inner defenses against the sort of thing.

    And no, don't tell me, but it's not a hallucination. Even banal things like astral projection can throw your psychic aggregates temporarily off your body. Some things, like left hand Tantra, are very very dangerous and the sort of OBE I and my close circle of practicioner friends had during left hand Tantra initiation we keep secret, but it literally changed our whole lives permanently and it took a lot of unconventional effort to undo.

    Some other things are more trivial. After you complete the first stage of the alchemical process, i.e. the equivalent to stream entrant or sotapanna, you'll feel lighter, your mind will be much cleaner like crystal, you'll be more dettached from materiality. Normal.
    In.some churches, rhey.speak in tongues during the service, which they consider the presence of the supernatural, as well as others.practicing faith healing. You can insist that they are not an hallucination, but that belief does not make it so, anymore that the Pencostal's belief they are truly speaking in tongues, or that the faith healers really do heal.

  6. #166

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscase View Post
    OK so Jesus was just a regular guy then. He was in rebellion against the Romans, and they caught and executed him.

    Where's the heroism?
    Now you are changing the goal post. The issue was whether the the story as believed by Christians is a heroic one. Since Christians don't believe that Jesus was a.regular guy or that he was rebellion against the Romans, your assertion is wrong.

    As to what really happened is irrelevant, since we can't know what really happened. In the Lord of the Rings, Frodo was heroic, and the fact that it is just a work of fiction is irrevevlant to the question as to whether Frodo was a hero or not. In the contexof the story, Frodo was a hero.


    As I said, we have know way of knowing for certainty the absolute truth of the story, the same for Buddha, Muhammad, Moses, etc. The earliest biographies of Buddha and Muhammad havd a much larger gap than the csnnonical Gospels from Jesus, and we have much better independent historical records of what was happening at time and place Jesus lived. The earliest non Buddhist mention of Buddha was by Christians around 500 years after Buddha was alleged to live, and the earliest non Muslim.accounts of Muhammad conflict with what the Muslims say. The Vedic accounts pretty much lack independent corroborating historical evidence.



    The question of whether the Jesus story was a heroic one must be based on what the Christians believe. Whether it is a true story of not, is a matter of debate and opinion, but that is a different question, and the same issue could be said of the other religions.

  7. #167

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Depends on the personal concept of "heroism", which can be subjective.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  8. #168

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Depends on the personal concept of "heroism", which can be subjective.
    I think that people's idea of heroism would generally agree. If you say it is subjective, then how would you define it? .
    Last edited by Common Soldier; May 25, 2019 at 02:57 PM.

  9. #169
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    The issue was whether the the story as believed by Christians is a heroic one. Since Christians don't believe that Jesus was a.regular guy or that he was rebellion against the Romans, your assertion is wrong.

    As to what really happened is irrelevant, since we can't know what really happened. In the Lord of the Rings, Frodo was heroic, and the fact that it is just a work of fiction is irrevevlant to the question as to whether Frodo was a hero or not. In the contexof the story, Frodo was a hero.
    ...
    The question of whether the Jesus story was a heroic one must be based on what the Christians believe. Whether it is a true story of not, is a matter of debate and opinion, but that is a different question, and the same issue could be said of the other religions.
    So...

    If you are saying that the Jesus story is made up to mean whatever Christians want it to mean, I'll largely concede that point (with the stipulation that there almost certainly was a historical Jesus). However, your earlier arguments in this line of thinking appeared to indicate you thought there was some significant, non-trivial, objectively heroic element at work.

  10. #170

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscase View Post
    So...

    If you are saying that the Jesus story is made up to mean whatever Christians want it to mean, I'll largely concede that point (with the stipulation that there almost certainly was a historical Jesus). However, your earlier arguments in this line of thinking appeared to indicate you thought there was some significant, non-trivial, objectively heroic element at work.

    Yes, just as the story of Mohammed made up to mean whatever Muslims want it to mean, the story of Buddha is made up mean whatever Buddhist want it to mean. If you bothered to look at the context of what I wrote, it was against the claims that the Neo-Platonics were more heroic, when the fact is that nothing the Neo Platonic did could be considered to heroic by any standard, and they claim it was more heroic than Christianity was a false claims. Mithraism also.not more heroic than Christinity, since there is no evidence that Mithras was at any risk killing the bull, or suffered anyway in the slaying of the bull, so it was not more heroic by any standard.
    This conversation is going far field from the topic of the thread. Perhaps you can address your future comm nts to something actually related to the thread?

  11. #171
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    I'm making a sincere attempt to apply reason to religion. Seems topical enough to me.

  12. #172
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    chriscase,

    You make a good point above because there has to be an answer as to why men have a religious tendency? I mean why after thousands of years have men logged their affiliations to gods and still do? I suppose we can add to that where certain men of power have called on their underlings to see them as gods as the most recent past has shown. Is there a newspaper that doesn't have a page for people to access their stars believing that something out there can work in their favour? In general why are people drawn to the supernatural?

    Paul writes to the Roman church that God has placed before all men knowledge of His existence just by what can be clearly seen around them, their folly being that they have come to worship what was created rather than the Creator. Therefore that being the case and still is the case then man is left with no excuse for not believing in God. Oh yes, they follow many gods or no God at all, but deep inside the thought that there might just be One, niggles the living daylights out of them. The latest god to follow is science yet science after so many years still cannot answer that question even in its many spheres. In fact very few leave this planet without a religious person saying a few words over them just in case.

    The biggest and most profound statement ever written was and is, " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." One despite his or her beliefs can never get away from that.

  13. #173

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    I'm making a sincere attempt to apply reason to religion. Seems topical enough to me.
    And let me add to this...

    What you call reason is actually like a big fat guy on steroids. That's because it's a direct function of the Western metaphysics of subjectivity. Human intelligence is not primarily focused on objects, but rather on metaphysical judgments derived primarily from sensible intuition.

    Aristotle's rationality is still the best model of rationality that can be applied to humanity, with all its limitations. The Post-Cartesian model, however, was essentially a magical and voodoo-like subjectivism that was propped up by secret societies such as Freemansonry that split apart from its roots.

    "Reason" in the Cartesian-Newtonian frame presupposes a strict separation between subject and object. It pressupposes that about 50% or more of the reality that we witness is actually a creation of our minds. It believes earnestly that reality is a creation of ideas located in the individual subject.

    In sum, it's totally nihilistic and perverted. It's concerned mainly with obtaining quantitative relations in matter, and it's not genuinely concerned with obtaining genuine intellectual judgments. Reason in the modern frame is actually an abstract, empty, disconnected speculation, concerned primarily and chiefly ONLY with disconnected mental abstractions and a denial of objective reality. It is an idealism gone mad in the deification of the mere individual subject, and you can also thank German idealism for that.

    Since it rests alone upon a spurious ontological foundation, it has no validity and consistency. It purely consists in an abstract framework, that helps us create a tool to better identify some physical realities, and that's it. All the rest is merely a subjective projection, and pure unbrindled solipsism that leads to nihilism and relativism about external reality.

    Let me finish this with the words of Rene Guenon:

    Descartes limited intelligence to reason, and granted to what he thought might be called ‘metaphysics’ the mere function of serving as a basis for physics. This physics itself was by its very nature destined -in his eyes- to pave the way for the applied sciences: mechanical, medicinal, and moral — the final limit of human knowledge as he conceived it.

    Are not the tendencies which he so affirmed just those that at the first glance may be seen to characterize the whole development of the modern world?

    To deny or to ignore all pure and supra-rational knowledge was to open up the path which logically could only lead on the one hand to positivism and agnosticism, which resign themselves to the narrowest limitations of intelligence and of its object, and on the other hand to all those sentimental and ‘voluntarist’ theories that feverishly seek in the infra-rational for what reason cannot give them.

    Indeed, those of our contemporaries who wish to react against rationalism accept nonetheless the complete identification of intelligence with mere reason, and they believe that it is nothing more than a purely practical faculty, incapable of going beyond the realm of matter.

    Rationalism, though powerless to attain to absolute truth, at least allowed relative truth to subsist

    Rationalism, though powerless to attain to absolute truth, at least allowed relative truth to subsist; the intuitionism of today lowers that truth to be nothing more than a representation of sensible reality, in all its inconsistency and ceaseless change; finally, pragmatism succeeds in blotting out altogether the very notion of truth by identifying it with that of utility, which amounts to suppressing it purely and simply.

    The pragmatists -in going to the limit- show themselves to be the most authentic representatives of modern Western thought: what does the truth matter in a world whose aspirations -being solely material and sentimental and not intellectual- find complete satisfaction in industry and morality, two spheres where indeed one can very well do without conceiving the truth? ”
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  14. #174

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I think that people's idea of heroism would generally agree. If you say it is subjective, then how would you define it? .
    Someone ready to sacrifice (or risk sacrificing) himself to save his collective/spiritual movement.

    Or in more metaphysical words, basically someone who completly overthrew his ego and fused with a higher cause.

    He only stops offering resistance to Rome's orthodoxy after Judas, his move symbolizing that the movement was compromised and spies were on to catch him.
    He could 1) choose his life fleeing around while giving sermons while the movement got more compromised as time passed or

    2) facing the reality that for his sermons to have any legitimacy he would need to offer himself to the romans for torture and execution.

    He thought the 2nd option would be the most effective in spreading his ideas, and given that 2019+ years after we are discussing what He decided, I'd say he knew at least a little bit of what he was doing.

    Main obstacle is average XXI person figuring out what he meant with his words (much lost in time translation, let alone language translation) or having interpretation ability of classical old texts.
    Last edited by fkizz; May 26, 2019 at 01:16 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  15. #175

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier
    And think you are very wrong wrong wrong wrong and frankly full of nonesense. While I have given concrete examples to support my criticism, so far you only have made claims with zero facts supporting the. I expect to see tomorrow some actual examples to support your claims, with specific examples of from bot Christianity and Islam, showing how Islam is more complete and Christianity is less complete. So far, you have not done that.

    I think the facts of history speak for itself - it was in Christian lands that the massive reduction in child mortality, universal literacy, women given the right to vote , and large Democratic states where both men and women have the right to vote were first achieved. It was Christian world that modern physics, modern chemistry, modern biology first arose, that led to cell phones, eradication of small pox sir plNez, and near instantaneous communications. Exactly what had the spirituality younlaud given us?
    All of this is inconsequential and idiotic.

    The modern world neglects and treats nature like an object, has no hierarchy, has terrible social relations, Western and modern imperialist have disfigured and destroyed - first themselves - then traditional cultures around the globe. Western "science" is nothing but an exaggeration of technique, at the very best. It has brought us a large amount of disconnected facts about the immediate physical world, without any greater synthesis or anything superior at the level of the pure Intellect.

    In fact, Western science represents a conscious forgetfulness of the roots of Western civilization itself. Western science represents an attempt at objectifying the world, and turning it into a gigantic and inorganic machine where the emphasis lies purely on technique and industry and nothing else. As such, Western science could only create what Guenon could call the "Reign of Quantity", or the civilization of the last days that has forgotten all genuine wisdom and now concerns itself only with sentimentality and industry standing in denial to the human Intellect as conceived by Aristotle, Plotinus, and the original harbingers of the Western Tradition.

    A Christianity gave us the works of Thomas Aquinas too, and he was pre Cartesian. The Eastern religions are even worse , with little practical application, and has little as far as I can to better mankind. Much of the post Cartesian philosophy does have practical application. John Locke idea lead to the development of the US Constitution, and a government that almost the oldest in the world, a government that is more than century older than any of the governments of the East. But all this is talk of philosophy, not religion, which is a slightly different topic. But it is total BS to assert the philosophy of Islam is more complete than Christianity, the Islamix world largely rejected philosophy and real science which is why it lags scientifically, technologically, and socially today
    The US Constitution is bollocks anyway. Liberalism is bollocks. John Locke is a second, or third rate thinker at best. Sorry, but I actively dislike the US and Liberalism. Liberalism is the doctrine of radical chaos, in the words of a reputable Catholic priest:

    Liberalism "is, therefore, the radical and universal denial of all divine truth and Christian dogma, the primal type of all heresy, and the supreme rebellion against the authority of God and His Church. As with Lucifer, its maxim is, 'I will not serve.'" (Ch. 3).
    That Western civilization seeks to spread Liberalism, actively speaks against Western civilization itself.


    But it is total BS to assert the philosophy of Islam is more complete than Christianity, the Islamix world largely rejected philosophy and real science which is why it lags scientifically, technologically, and socially today
    Islamic philosophy is more complete and organic in the sense of cosmo-ontological awareness of nature, and of man himself. Western philosophy is radically unbalanced towards quantity, is solipsistic, nihilistic, alienated from Being, alienated from Wisdom, and concerned primarily only with industry and technology.

    In sum, "moon landings" are not impressive. The Western world suffers from radical moral problems, such as the breakdown of the family, social and economic disparities, the breakdown of objective rules of conduct and morality, selfishness, materialism, lack of spirituality, lack of harmony with nature, lack of real wisdom, lack of discipline, lack of respect for rulers, lack of authority, nihilism and lack of objective truth, in sum, the Western world is totally broken, degenerate and corrupt and most Muslims and others who want to actively combat its influence are 100% justified in their undertakings.

    That is because Western civilization is not Christian. Modern Western Civilization is built upon a negation of its original Christian character. Even Protestantism represents a degeneration and a distortion of the essence of primeval Christianity. All of these things are undeniable.

    The Modern West exists solely as the slave of the forces that seek to create an immoral, nihilistic plutocracy.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; May 26, 2019 at 01:48 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  16. #176

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Seen too many "History for [insert who is perceived to have it wrong]" articles\sites
    And how many of them are BY a member of the group in question? Did you understand that I AM an atheist myself?


    Your support of 'it's not true' is based on Sagan who had it from another guy who had a grudge. Not the kind of support (it technically is support, agreed) I was looking for.
    Total nonsense. I note that the myth that the Great Library was destroyed by Christians is widespread in popular perceptions largely because of the influence of Sagan's TV show. Then I trace Sagan's confused version of the myth back to Gibbon. That is not the argument that "it is not true" - that is tracing the origin of the myth. I then SHOW it is not true by detailing what actually happened and how the Great Library was destroyed long before Christianity came to power in the Empire. It seems you either didn't read all of my article or you skim read it looking for reasons to disagree. Perhaps you should go back and actually read it.


    Poor choice of words, "minuscule paragraph in an extensive article" would have conveyed it better (see up).
    What minuscule paragraph are you referring to?


    Appreciated, would have been nice in the article.
    If you mean it would have been nice to know what happened to the books in the Library's collection, I tell you. Again, you don't seem to have actually read the article.


    These two (roughly 60 minutes each): https://historyforatheists.com/2018/...led-dark-ages/
    So you mean "videos", not "movies". What exactly was "painful" about those? I give masses of information, all of which is backed by evidence and supported by pretty much every historian of the medieval period on the planet. So what seems to be the problem? Perhaps it's is "painful" to learn that what you thought you knew was mostly wrong.

    Given that it's not only the stance that gets ridiculed but the persons holding it as well, makes a response to it (feeling ridiculed), well, personal. I am fairly sure you did not have me personally in mind with those movies. Or anyone person in particular, if you wish to extend your argument.
    See above - perhaps you're taking this so personally because you don't like to discover that you're wrong. But I'm afraid you ARE wrong. But if you want to defend your claim that "the destruction of libraries and scientific material in general by overzealous Christians was one of the main reasons of the dark ages" we could start a thread over on Vestigia Vetustatis and discuss it there. You can present your evidence and I'll explain why you are peddling a set of outdated nineteenth century pseudo historical cliches that has long since been rejected by modern historians.

  17. #177
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Marie Louise von Preussen and Common Soldier: I fear it's somehow possible that you are both right, but I suppose this is actually a pretty tragic conclusion for Western Civilization's future.

  18. #178

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    I think that the most tragic aspect of Western decadence has been the collapse of nationalism and the collective values of society.

    Nationalism was one of the great idols of modernity. At least the "modernity" of Hegel, let's say. It was also really the last idol of these euro-societies, like Germany, Poland, and whatnot, that had been built upon very strong ethnocentric focus.

    Nowadays, Liberalism, nihilism, and the decadence of collective values for the sake of liberal capitalism, individualism, etc... have brought about the death of Nationalism and Communism as the political idols of Modernity.

    What we have now, is pure unbrindled nihilism. Everybody goes their own way, nothing exists, everything is permitted. It becomes a crime to question a person's subjective choices on any matter. The only thing that matters is individual gratification and hedonism. All collective ties and institutions, such as the family, break up. People are narcissistic, selfish, and don't care anymore for anything else but their own pockets.

    This has been happening for many decades, of course, and most of that has become so trivial people have even ceased to notice or bother. But the fact of the matter is that alienation has become the currency of postmodern hiper-capitalistic societies, from the cosmological and ontological level to simple things like the social and nuclear level. In sum, it's a disaster.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  19. #179

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    In a certain, special sense, the West was once considered a role model for all cultures in the world that had been left behind by modernization. But nowadays, outside the West, in Russia, the Islamic world, even China and India, everybody associates the West with decadence, corruption, nihilism and degeneracy. The tide has turned. The West is basically a living fossil waiting to get buried, that's the truth, and with post-modernity go away the truths of modernity.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  20. #180
    Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    You've been palling around with Russians and Muslims a bit too much, Marie. There's a reason millions of non-Westerners risk their lives to get to the West every year, but precisely zero Westerners are doing the same to immigrate to Egypt or Bhutan. Anti-Western Romanticism only exists in spoiled (ungrateful) individuals. Very few people outside the West feel the same way. Reminds me of modern neopagan romanticism, which virtually every ancient pagan would've dismissed as downright absurd. But that's original sin for you. Humanity intrinsically seeks its own slavery and destruction.

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