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Thread: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

  1. #121
    Gigantus's Avatar Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    You claimed it by implication.



    To reiterate, faith is only directly relevant to theism not deism; the prime mover theory is a logical deduction. Though once again I get the distinct impression that your disdain for faith is another example of you holding your own psychology in contempt; your starting position is to treat it as an evolutionary mistake rather than a valid response. This sort of cynicism often leads people into disregarding entire fields of human learning on the basis of misplaced assumptions.
    Not a fan of implications nor assumptions like you make here, it's the cause of a majority of FUBAR (see link again) where I am concerned.

    Am I to understand that questioning the validity of a concept that is purely based on personal perception is considered cynicism? I am getting an inkling how Copernicus must have felt. Particular when it comes to the 'disregarding' part.

    I take it that this not the place to discuss my related opinion that without religion (institutionalized belief) we would have colonized Mars already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Gigantus, my argument isn't that most people are religious, therefore religion is true.
    It certainly looked like it. (see the overwhelming consensus, therefore my argument is true)
    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    It's that almost every human being in almost every culture possesses the sensus divinitatis, so if anyone is delusional or suffers from a cognitive malfunction, it's probably people who can't sense what everyone else has no trouble sensing. Now, personally I don't think nontheism is a cognitive malfunction, but I really get tired of the sense of intellectual superiority that many atheists exude, as if 99% of human beings in human history are blithering retards, while atheists are the few, the proud, the rational, the only human beings with a functioning brain. It's like a blind man calling 99% of humanity delusional for thinking they can see.
    Bit of a faulty argument - basing the validity of individual perceptions on a hypothetical sense isn't much different from saying 'it is because it is'. Your 'retard' side swipe seems to imply that I intended to ridicule the perception represented in the consensus rather then your premise that consensus is validation of the perception. I can assure you it was the latter, although ridiculing wasn't foremost on my mind. As I never labelled\described your stand point as delusional (just not supported by what I consider proof) your final argument is a bit out of line, wouldn't you think? How about: 'it's like a blind man asking for an explanation what seeing is'? 'Open your eyes' isn't very helpful then.

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscase View Post
    long post
    Appreciated, certainly way more eloquent then how I was trying to argue it. eg 'cognitive patterns' as lead in would have saved me some arguing. Gotta participate more often in discussions (outside the pit).
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 17, 2019 at 12:42 AM.



  2. #122

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Not a fan of implications nor assumptions like you make here, it's the cause of a majority of FUBAR (see link again) where I am concerned.
    Whether you're a fan of implications or assumptions is irrelevant; we rely on both in order to converse.

    Am I to understand that questioning the validity of a concept that is purely based on personal perception is considered cynicism?
    The cynical element is the prima facie assumption that the sensus divinitas is deceptive or false in its nature.

    I am getting an inkling how Copernicus must have felt. Particular when it comes to the 'disregarding' part.


    I take it that this not the place to discuss my related opinion that without religion (institutionalized belief) we would have colonized Mars already?
    Go ahead: I can always roll my eyes again.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; May 17, 2019 at 02:25 AM.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Well, from the very beginning Abel was accounted righteous before God, why? Because he presented to God a lamb offering pointing the way to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. He believed that the prophetic words laid out to his father and mother about one of her " seed " contending with Satan for the souls of men would come about and for that he was accounted righteous before God. The book to the Hebrews lists all those of the same accountability and belief/faith although in their time they never saw it, yet some or most gave their lives believing it. So where did that come from and why is it called faith? Well, the New Testament recollections tell us that Jesus used it frequently simply because no man could see God and live not in this world. Indeed we are told that true faith is a gift from God and is part of the regenerating process to enter heaven. No sinner has the ability to make that kind of decision, why? Because he or she is under condemnation, has no faith and can't have any until they hear the Gospel. Such is the power of sin however that most reject that same Gospel and can't therefore have saving faith. One can only be saved through Justification by Faith by believing that Jesus Christ is that Saviour and that only after a calling from God.

  4. #124
    Gigantus's Avatar Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Whether you're a fan of implications or assumptions is irrelevant; we rely on both in order to converse.
    It's gonna be tedious to list everything that I didn't mean every time I post an opinion. Or to read any barely related hypothesis you may have based on what I omitted to list.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The cynical element is the prima facie assumption that the sensus divinitas is deceptive or false in its nature.
    I take it that's a yes? Apart from the fact that my argument was about 'hypothetical' (doubting it's existence, bolded for emphasis, the involved hyperlink does not allow colors) and not whether it's deceptive or false (I get that a sense can be deceptive, but how can a sense be false?) which would require to acknowledge it's existence.

    Eyes rolling - I take it you did not think the linked material responded to your post? I thought it rather fitted your last sentence.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    So where did that come from and why is it called faith? Well, the New Testament recollections tell us that Jesus used it frequently simply because no man could see God and live not in this world. Indeed we are told that true faith is a gift from God and is part of the regenerating process to enter heaven.
    I am confused. Are you trying to re-affirm my assertion that faith requires unquestioning acceptance? The phrasing "..because no man could see God and live not in this world." is a bit archaic, would you mind to elaborate what you meant?
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 17, 2019 at 03:53 AM.



  5. #125

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    It's gonna be tedious to list everything that I didn't mean every time I post an opinion. Or to read any barely related hypothesis you may have based on what I omitted to list.
    It's an unavoidable hazard of debate I'm afraid - and it works both ways.

    I take it that's a yes? Apart from the fact that my argument was about 'hypothetical' (doubting it's existence, bolded for emphasis, the involved hyperlink does not allow colors) and not whether it's deceptive or false (I get that a sense can be deceptive, but how can a sense be false?) which would require to acknowledge it's existence.
    ??

    Eyes rolling - I take it you did not think the linked material responded to your post? I thought it rather fitted your last sentence.
    When you compared your frustrations to those of Copernicus, I realised the true extent to which I was beneath your towering intellect.

    I am confused. Are you trying to re-affirm my assertion that faith requires unquestioning acceptance?
    Faith is synonymous with trust; you can trust someone with good reason or not. It doesn't require "unquestioning acceptance".
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; May 17, 2019 at 04:04 AM.

  6. #126
    Diocle's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    I take it that this not the place to discuss my related opinion that without religion (institutionalized belief) we would have colonized Mars already?
    OMG! Without religion we would be still using longbows and spears!

    Galileo Galilei, Nicolaus Copernicus, Isaac Newton (just to quote three pioneers of modern physics) were all Christians, they studied and taught in very Christian Universities, which were part of a very institutionalized political/social/cultural system based on Christianism.

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Gigantus,

    When Jesus said that if one, anyone, had faith the size of a mustard seed they could move mountains with that kind of faith. He knew no-one did have and that is but just one reason I believe that when a person is born again the faith of Jesus Christ is imputed to them showing that it was not any faith they had that saved them, rather His faith to go on the cross on their behalf. Therefore a new born again Christian will have doubts and the need for his or her faith to be strengthened continually the reason the Holy Ghost indwells them to give them that inner strength as was depicted in the gathering at Pentecost. Death from that point on meant nothing to them as many if not all gave up their lives in faith that they had a better place to go as one of God's own.

    Regarding God the Father, even the Son, but specifically the Father, He is a blinding Spirit upon Whom no man might look without being killed because of that Light that comes from Him and we can read that in certain cases when Jesus was glorified men couldn't look on Him for that same glory as the transfiguration depicts. The number of times men have fallen onto their faces in fear is well written of when they have met God, is well documented especially in the Old Testament and that being on meeting Christ. It is written that on the day Jesus Christ returns to finalise all things, everyone, the living and the dead, will fall on their knees to confess Him as Lord and God. Great fear will be as never seen before for He will appear as never seen before in all His glory to roll up and burn away this creation and bring in the new heaven and earth promised to all that have believed on Him upon which they will live with Him. The myriads of others will not see that, them being cast into eternal torment. We read that there won't be any sun moon or stars because God Himself will light that place where His own are going just as He lit up the world before the sun, moon and stars were formed. When that is all settled it is written that Jesus will hand back to the Father all power and authority that He had been given, remaining as the brother to all the adopted sons and daughters He saved at the cross.

  8. #128
    Gigantus's Avatar Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    ??
    Well, you used a hypothetical concept we talked earlier about to respond to my general question if questioning a concept based on personal experience is cynicism. Your answer was positive where I was concerned - guess I shouldn't have side tracked that in my opinion that for something to be deceptive or false it has to 'exist' in the first place, challenging the affirmation of said existence being what my question was about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    OMG! Without religion we would be still using longbows and spears!

    Galileo Galilei, Nicolaus Copernicus, Isaac Newton (just to quote three pioneers of modern physics) were all Christians, they studied and taught in very Christian Universities, which were part of a very institutionalized political/social/cultural system based on Christianism.
    Looking forward how that holds up to my theory that the destruction of libraries and scientific material in general by overzealous Christians was one of the main reasons of the dark ages. Eg the total stagnation of human development for a considerable time. You must have also missed my Copernicus link ep1c refers to so gallantly. Additionally you also seem to be unaware that Galileo was as unpopular with religion as was Copernicus. Newton did not contradict an official position of the church (by then it was just as well that is was not an mortal offence any more to seek answers to 'unexplainable' phenomena other then 'deus io vult') so he thankfully could publish his findings without interference from the church. Not much of an argument for 'church supporting\enabling\furthering' knowledge I would think vis a vis my premise. That stance by religion has been toned down further significantly in recent times, alas it does not restore what was lost: Considering the exponential development of science (60 odd years from first flight to first step on moon) it would be save to assume that without the 'loss' of several centuries of development we very well could be sitting on Mars, sipping a synapse stimulating drink while detailing our assumptions.
    Last edited by Gigantus; Today at 12:17 AM.



  9. #129
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Double post to avoid mix ups.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Gigantus,

    When Jesus said that if one, anyone, had faith the size of a mustard seed they could move mountains with that kind of faith. He knew no-one did have and that is but just one reason I believe that when a person is born again the faith of Jesus Christ is imputed to them showing that it was not any faith they had that saved them, rather His faith to go on the cross on their behalf. Therefore a new born again Christian will have doubts and the need for his or her faith to be strengthened continually the reason the Holy Ghost indwells them to give them that inner strength as was depicted in the gathering at Pentecost. Death from that point on meant nothing to them as many if not all gave up their lives in faith that they had a better place to go as one of God's own.
    I understand this as being born with doubt and needing to shed doubt (aka questioning things) to be considered faithful. That would be a 'Yes, faith requires unquestioning acceptance', correct? It does however appear to be only be applicable to 'born again' Christians and not a general observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Regarding God the Father, even the Son, but specifically the Father, He is a blinding Spirit upon Whom no man might look without being killed because of that Light that comes from Him and we can read that in certain cases when Jesus was glorified men couldn't look on Him for that same glory as the transfiguration depicts. The number of times men have fallen onto their faces in fear is well written of when they have met God, is well documented especially in the Old Testament and that being on meeting Christ. It is written that on the day Jesus Christ returns to finalise all things, everyone, the living and the dead, will fall on their knees to confess Him as Lord and God. Great fear will be as never seen before for He will appear as never seen before in all His glory to roll up and burn away this creation and bring in the new heaven and earth promised to all that have believed on Him upon which they will live with Him. The myriads of others will not see that, them being cast into eternal torment. We read that there won't be any sun moon or stars because God Himself will light that place where His own are going just as He lit up the world before the sun, moon and stars were formed. When that is all settled it is written that Jesus will hand back to the Father all power and authority that He had been given, remaining as the brother to all the adopted sons and daughters He saved at the cross.
    I never had occasion to fear any god, deity or other belief constructs. Nor have I seen anything that indicates I should. I do however fear those that claim to act and interpret on their behalf.

    If any of this was in response to a less archaic explanation of the phrase I asked about then you totally lost me: responding with a sermon full of archaic phrases simply doesn't do the job.
    Last edited by Gigantus; Yesterday at 11:45 PM.



  10. #130
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Gigantus, I think you'll like this site. It's a hardcore atheist debunking some popular myths about religion, such as the Dark Ages, conflict with science, destruction of libraries, and so on: https://historyforatheists.com/the-great-myths/
    Last edited by Prodromos; Today at 02:10 AM.

  11. #131
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Gigantus,

    What most people see as faith can quickly be erased whereas the faith that Jesus imputes into the regenerate carries the whole weight of God which even for the regenerate is hard to appreciate, why? Because what they have been saved from still lingers in the memory. So, do I have blind faith? I only wish I did because I never see myself rising to the standards of Jesus. He never stumbled whereas I do and when that happens I have to get back to the cross to remember what He did for me. It's not therefore just the imputed faith given to me to believe I am saved, rather it's plus all the experiences that go along with it.

  12. #132
    Gigantus's Avatar Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea
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    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    @Prodromos

    Always appreciate sources - the more of them the greater the chance of a more informed opinion.

    The site itself had me cringe at it's title but at least it tries to give references to the statements it makes. Nicely detailed about the question how many scrolls the Alexandria library might have contained and how many other libraries there might have been plus a relative small disclaimer re the Alex lib destruction by Christians by way of 'Sagan had it from Gibbons who had an axe to grind' (didn't know that 'Contact' was based on a book by Sagan, nor how it's relevant). I was generally disappointed because it is missing the author's 'this is my take on what happened to all the stuff that I just extensively confirmed existed at one point'.

    It was a bit painful trying to extract actual info from in between the disdainful and ridiculing commentary in the two one hour movies regarding the dark ages so I stopped about 5-10 minutes in. I freely admit to a block when it comes to being ridiculed for my arguments while bringing forth arguments to convince me otherwise. It does not further a discussion and simply detracts from the argument made (and I am not bothered to figure out if the ridicule is about my stance or if a perceived weakness of the counter argument necessitated the ridicule).
    Last edited by Gigantus; Today at 04:24 AM.



  13. #133

    Default Re: Why Religion Cannot Be Measured by Modern Rationality - A Critique of Rationalism, Scientism and Post-Modern Metaphysics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Well, you used a hypothetical concept we talked earlier about to respond to my general question if questioning a concept based on personal experience is cynicism. Your answer was positive where I was concerned - guess I shouldn't have side tracked that in my opinion that for something to be deceptive or false it has to 'exist' in the first place, challenging the affirmation of said existence being what my question was about.
    You asked: "Am I to understand that questioning the validity of a concept [the sensus divinitatis] that is purely based on personal perception is considered cynicism?"

    The answer to this is no. The questioning of a "concept" is not cynicism; the cynicism is in your prima facie assumptions about the "concept" itself. That is to say, you probably concluded what the sense of divinity is not prior to investigating what it is.

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