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Thread: All advanced aliens are moral

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    Default All advanced aliens are moral

    All advanced aliens are moral


    If there are billions of Earth-like planets, some of them [billions/trillions] have intelligent life, and some of those are more advanced than us >

    If not moral…

    They would have conquered us as soon as they had space/quantum travel.

    They would have colonized the earth before humans existed or at any time.


    Thing about morals is that one may think they are moral in the sense of being a civilizing force, like the Romans for example. Or that you are better than the others and have many reasons why you could make the earth better, especially seeing the state it is in now. Yet if any such ‘morals’ or maybe resource needs were active out there, then we would have been conquered, or not have come into existence!

    Ergo, the morals at large ~ and the only ones out there, are not anything like that. Which is an interesting perspective upon morality generally, a device - if you will.


    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Amorphos; March 16, 2019 at 03:50 PM.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    I don't see why they would have colonised us. We live on a small planet hard to detect planet with very few resources and a higly poisonous/corrosive athmosphere in a relatively remote corner of the galaxy.

    Pre-human earth would juat not be worth the trouble. Human earth does have a relatively durable slave race on hand but they have to get over our extreme predisposition twoards sadism and violence.

    Moreover any colonisation attempt would have to be covert so that we do not destroy the planet in nuclear fire.
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Quote Originally Posted by Amorphos View Post
    If there are billions of Earth-like planets, some of them [billions/trillions] have intelligent life, and some of those are more advanced than us
    Sorry to tell you, but this is a complete non-sequitur. Just because there are a lot of planets out there doesn't mean aliens exist.
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Quote Originally Posted by Amorphos View Post
    All advanced aliens are moral


    If there are billions of Earth-like planets, some of them [billions/trillions] have intelligent life, and some of those are more advanced than us >

    If not moral…

    They would have conquered us as soon as they had space/quantum travel.

    They would have colonized the earth before humans existed or at any time.


    Thing about morals is that one may think they are moral in the sense of being a civilizing force, like the Romans for example. Or that you are better than the others and have many reasons why you could make the earth better, especially seeing the state it is in now. Yet if any such ‘morals’ or maybe resource needs were active out there, then we would have been conquered, or not have come into existence!

    Ergo, the morals at large ~ and the only ones out there, are not anything like that. Which is an interesting perspective upon morality generally, a device - if you will.


    Thoughts?
    Well you have hit upon a variation of the Fermi paradox I see.

    They would have conquered us as soon as they had space/quantum travel.
    Setting aside that a way to travel faster than light is speculation, would they?, Why?

    Consider since the 50s we have more had the basically solid plan for a ship that could get to Alpha Centauri in something 200-2000 years. But did the world stop the cold war unite and start colonizing the galaxy. Nope the answer was just mah. In that we are the singular example humans could be doing the Fermi thing but ignored it. And you can see why realistic space travel is a one way trip most of the people leaving are just on a uncomfortable bus ride witha fantastically uncertain outcome for their descendants [Or maybe themselves if you want to some kind of suspended animation]

    But OK assume there is some technological for FTL travel. Is accompanied all kinds of other things - critically artificial gravity? Are they safe, efficient and cheap? If not you empire is kind of pointless. What critical resource are you lacking to drive you out to the stars via anything more than drones and curiosity to see what is there. Sure maybe you want to find that one right plant to move people too before your star goes red giant. But once you can cheaply and easily exploit your whole solar system (move nasty production and mining off planet for example) and assuming again artificial gravity colonize it all... why bother leaving home? I mean think about if you can flit about you entire solar system Star Trek like you are already wealthy beyond measure as a civilization. Is worth doing anything more than remote clandestine exploration. What if you encounter and alert a radically paranoid people willing to immolate themselves and you with bio warfare rather than accept another species in the universe.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Sorry to tell you, but this is a complete non-sequitur. Just because there are a lot of planets out there doesn't mean aliens exist.
    Well it probably does mean some kind of life might exist. The question is how rare or not is it to get a form of life that gets to be like smart monkeys with typing machines and the internet?
    Last edited by conon394; March 17, 2019 at 07:38 AM.
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Sorry to tell you, but this is a complete non-sequitur. Just because there are a lot of planets out there doesn't mean aliens exist.
    The proposition is that ‘if there are’ ~ then they are moral. The chances of us being the only ones are quite small.

    Setting aside that a way to travel faster than light is speculation, would they?, Why?
    I don’t think you can go faster, but I think quantum travel would be like a bubble, where you push your finger in at one part and your finger comes out at another location. Keep repeating such a process and a ship could slip through space - so to say, without inertia and hence no restrictions.

    Same applies to quantum communicators, as soon as we have them we will know if there are anyone out there also with them!
    Might not want to switch those on lol

    Consider since the 50s we have more had the basically solid plan for a ship that could get to Alpha Centauri in something 200-2000 years.
    they need quantum drive, or its just not feasible imho.


    Ergo we can say that either that is not possible and no one ever travels outside there solar systems ever et al, or someone out there can but they don’t do so and they are moral!


    For me its an interesting perspective on morality mostly, because most peoples morals involve doing shiz to other people and not of being unaffecting.
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    but I think quantum travel would be like a bubble, where you push your finger in at one part and your finger comes out at another location. Keep repeating such a process and a ship could slip through space - so to say, without inertia and hence no restrictions.
    Well yes you can theorize anything that might be feasible. But nothing observable says its likely anytime soon. Also you need to be cheap and easy. Also get out of a gravity well are we just walking into it and hope our aim is correct?

    Same applies to quantum communicators, as soon as we have them we will know if there are anyone out there also with them!
    Hope we have the same company to dial. Really however some of the actually demonstrable quantum physics is really cool but I not sure we will be pushing much besides photons or the odd electron through space in a cool jump anytime soon and only then in fantastically controlled lab events.

    they need quantum drive, or its just not feasible imho.
    No we really could build a feasible set of Orion type ships - generation ones. I might cost as much as all we spent on the nuclear part of the Cold war but doable.Of course what fate awaits in what targeted system you get to?

    Ergo we can say that either that is not possible and no one ever travels outside there solar systems ever et al, or someone out there can but they don’t do so and they are moral!
    No you can't make that binary assertion. If we are rolling for the infinite worlds means infant life than we must allow for infinite forms of life with infinite goals and variations and means. we cannot disallow the possibility that most worlds fail either by cosmic accident or self inflicted. Who knows maybe Oumuamua was a space probe or maybe a missed attempt to end us or just weird space stuff shooting through the galaxy. But you are back to the problem of why not an intelligent spore creature able to sit in a ship for a thousand years simply bent on expanding itself everywhere - morally indifferent.
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    conon


    Well yes you can theorize anything that might be feasible. But nothing observable says its likely anytime soon. Also you need to be cheap and easy. Also get out of a gravity well are we just walking into it and hope our aim is correct?

    Cheap; a rail gun about 55 miles long, fire stuff into space. Once you got a decent sized manned but mostly robotic station/factory in space, it can just build stuff [supplied by the gun].


    Hope we have the same company to dial. Really however some of the actually demonstrable quantum physics is really cool but I not sure we will be pushing much besides photons or the odd electron through space in a cool jump anytime soon and only then in fantastically controlled lab events.

    Once we have ‘Qube's’ ~ cubit computers, then patterns of said photons and electrons can be sent through. Once you have the instruments which do that [around 10 years time], then you can read what’s out there. Turn the dial to tune into aliens - in a manner of speaking.

    If there are aliens who can’t space travel, but also have quantum communicators, they will know we exist [!] and we can I dunno watch each others TV or something, maybe text each other lol.


    No we really could build a feasible set of Orion type ships - generation ones. It might cost as much as all we spent on the nuclear part of the Cold war but doable. Of course what fate awaits in what targeted system you get to?

    Sure we can do the generational thing, but who’d want to die on the way? A more feasible solution perhaps, is to use a rail gun [built on the space station] to fire robotic ships with all the stuff they need to grow a few thousand humans [grown foetus’s etc], on the other planets. A robotic factori in space could send many thousands of them out.

    Next phase a few decades later, send the devices you need at the other end, such that you can quantum travel.

    No you can't make that binary assertion. If we are rolling for the infinite worlds means infant life than we must allow for infinite forms of life with infinite goals and variations and means. we cannot disallow the possibility that most worlds fail either by cosmic accident or self inflicted. Who knows maybe Oumuamua was a space probe or maybe a missed attempt to end us or just weird space stuff shooting through the galaxy. But you are back to the problem of why not an intelligent spore creature able to sit in a ship for a thousand years simply bent on expanding itself everywhere - morally indifferent.
    I didn’t say infinite worlds I said billions possibly trillions. However, your point about ships carrying infestations is valid. Another ‘binary assumption’ then, would be that; all advanced aliens are clean. But seriously, it is plausible that before we get to quantum travel, we will possibly have biology mastered. I know it doesn’t look like that now, but AI, superior instruments and Qube’s will sort that. Thing is, the alien infestations would have to get here in order to infect us, but we have already stated that all advanced aliens are moral or they haven't come here [the proposition here]. Meaning that they must have if et al, sorted stuff like that out.



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    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    My thoughts revolve around our sad inability to even conceive the concept of morality in non-anthropocentric terms.
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    My thoughts revolve around our sad inability to even conceive the concept of morality in non-anthropocentric terms.
    So far that was not my point, just what ever the form or nature there is no reason to think the 'morality' of Aliens would in any way intersect with our own
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    You will forgive me for saying that the only aliens we do know of and written about is the Creator whose morals are impecable and the angels whose morals in the case of all them that broke away from Him are the complete opposite. There is no evidence that life exists on any other planet so it is only speculation from over fertile minds that suppose such a thing.

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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Quote Originally Posted by Amorphos View Post
    All advanced aliens are moral


    If there are billions of Earth-like planets, some of them [billions/trillions] have intelligent life, and some of those are more advanced than us >

    If not moral…

    They would have conquered us as soon as they had space/quantum travel.

    They would have colonized the earth before humans existed or at any time.
    That would be something like Spain vs the Inca Empire, a confrontation like that would need that these aliens should be almost exactly like us (biology, goals, needs, motivations etc) even their technology should be just barely more advanced than ours, because, if you have space/quantum travel and just a bit more advanced tech like AI and automation than you will have access to virtually infinite space and recourses. Why bother conquering anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Consider since the 50s we have more had the basically solid plan for a ship that could get to Alpha Centauri in something 200-2000 years. But did the world stop the cold war unite and start colonizing the galaxy. Nope the answer was just mah. In that we are the singular example humans could be doing the Fermi thing but ignored it. And you can see why realistic space travel is a one way trip most of the people leaving are just on a uncomfortable bus ride witha fantastically uncertain outcome for their descendants [Or maybe themselves if you want to some kind of suspended animation]
    There was a sci-fi novel where astronauts traveled in suspended animation to Alpha Centauri, the voyage took hundreds of years and when they finally arrived and woke up they had to realize that Alpha Centauri has already been colonized by mankind, during their long sleep human science has discovered FTL and sent millions of colonists ahead. cant remember the title of the novel...

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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Technological superiority and cultural refinement do not equal kindness or empathy.

    The amount of time required to get to the next star traveling at the speed of light is enormous, if they do exist they might not be close enough. If they exist and are aware of us, they might be on route towards us. Their morality might be inconceivable to us, they could find things we do to be hideously evil, or they might think of as pathetically soft.

    For those wondering what would make aliens want to conquer Earth, since the arguments of resources or enslavement are indeed economically unsound, one doesn't take into account how "alien" their culture could turn out to be - perhaps they'd simply want to destroy us because it affirms some of their beliefs or customs, or due to prudence, eliminating us before we spread and take unclaimed resources in the future, it would also preclude the necessity of dealing with an advanced version of us in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    There was a sci-fi novel where astronauts traveled in suspended animation to Alpha Centauri, the voyage took hundreds of years and when they finally arrived and woke up they had to realize that Alpha Centauri has already been colonized by mankind, during their long sleep human science has discovered FTL and sent millions of colonists ahead. cant remember the title of the novel...
    Too bad no one's awake to stop the ship and transfer to a faster one, since they apparently didn't have a computer that could do that they should've used a generational ship.
    Last edited by Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σω June 27, 2019 at 03:18 PM.
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Quote Originally Posted by Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ View Post
    Too bad no one's awake to stop the ship and transfer to a faster one, since they apparently didn't have a computer that could do that they should've used a generational ship.
    There are ethical issues with the generational ships, if you volunteer for a mission to leave Earth behind forever, its your life, your choice.
    Volunteering your unborn children and grandchildren too, well I dont believe that you have the right to make that choice for them and lock your descendants in a project which they could never leave.

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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    I dont believe that you have the right to make that choice for them and lock your descendants in a project which they could never leave.
    I agree with you, however I was merely pointing to what I perceived as a plot hole, because if they had the time to develop faster speed I think they would have ways to contact the older ship and stop it, the use of a generational ship was just a joke. Perhaps the novel was written before people had the full grasp or imagination of what computers and automated systems can do.
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Maybe not a plot hole, the ship was designed to leave behind mankind forever and to travel alone in the outer space so the ship was not equipped with communication systems or ways to stop the ship from the outside, they were not needed since nobody would be around to communicate with. Yes, I believe its an old (russian?) novel so there was no AI to make the decision to prematurely wake up the crew or something like that.

    Anyway, if I remember right it was too dangerous to stop the old ship so the colonists let it travell normally, it was a happy ending, the colonists made calculations to see where the old ship will eventually arrive, they even named the planets in that system after the astronauts, when they finally arrived thousands of their descendants greeted them.

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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Quote Originally Posted by Amorphos View Post

    They would have conquered us as soon as they had space/quantum travel.

    They would have colonized the earth before humans existed or at any time.

    Thoughts?
    Space is 13 billion Light Years in vague general width. We've only been broadcasting radio for 100 years. Such radiation is the only hint that we've existed outside this planet. Sure, there is the evidence we've blown up atomic weapons. But radio waves have reached farther.

    http://www.planetary.org/multimedia/...roadcasts.html

    Let's pretend they're immoral bastards who will grind us into slaves. The first challenge, before they even conquer us, is they have to find us.
    Last edited by Gaidin; June 29, 2019 at 12:03 PM.
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    First of all: Galaxies and planets aren't evenly spaced out. There are "only" like 3 or so (might remember wrong numbers) galaxies in our cluster that are reachable. There are several million or billion lightyears of complete void from one cluster to another. Anyone intent to visit the next cluster would be in for a long ride and should not expect to ever return.
    This of course still leaves a lot of inhabitable planets, but still. I don't like this being talked about so generally.

    Secondly: As far as I'm aware, the creation of life hasn't been understood that well yet. So we might not be aware of other inhibitors/factors that influence it.
    Furthermore: There must be extra hurdles for a species to evolve into abstract thinking cognitient beings. On earth, only humanoids managed that feat, from millions of species. Sure, we homo sapiens killed our competition (who we are closely related to), but why have no reptile people happened? And don't tell me about Hillary here. She's obviously a droid.
    Seriously though: We could be the first/only race that got this far. It could also be that hundreds of more advanced civilisations happened and all went extinct before we came along.

    Thirdly: Just because one civilisation is superior but not "moral", doesn't mean they'd attack straight away. Europe didn't colonise the Americas for hundreds of years after discovery. Why? Didn't seem worth it at the time.
    It's the same with the Roman Empire and Scotland/Ireland/Germania, so only very limited attempts were made. Same with them coming to us.
    Why would they want to conquer us? To tax us? Wouldn't it be easier to colonise some uninhabited planets first? Wouldn't it just as well be possible for them to have become more or less selfsufficient?

    Fourthly and quite frankly: Assuming morality to be an either or is a rather stupid proposition. Any civilisation would require some set of common moral values to even exist. A civilisation without any morality whatsoever never happened. That doesn't mean their set of morals would have to be the same. They could have a "turn the other cheek" pacifist ideology internally but still feel like they have the godgiven right to insert anal probes into any 2legged fat foulmouthed figure from Colorado they run into.

    Fifthly: Since space is so big, it can take so much time for them to get to us. Not just travel time. Why should an advanced civilisation randomly zoom to our planet when there are so many like it? If they need special resources, they'd probably choose some uninhabible planets/asteroids to mine. If they needed another planet to colonise, wouldn't they probably choose a planet closer to them? Why would we be worth their time?

    Sixthly: As pointed out by others, it still takes time for radiowaves, lightwaves, radiation etc. to transfer. So the part of space that could've catched us could be rather limited.

    Seventhly: We don't know for a fact that e.g. the possibility of quantum travel etc. even exists.

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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    I fail to see how the statements in the OP even correlate with human perceptions of alien morality, let alone are, in fact, accurate or even remotely represent the scenario.

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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    You will forgive me for saying that the only aliens we do know of and written about is the Creator whose morals are impecable and the angels whose morals in the case of all them that broke away from Him are the complete opposite. There is no evidence that life exists on any other planet so it is only speculation from over fertile minds that suppose such a thing.
    There is no evidence that your god or his angels exist either.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: All advanced aliens are moral

    First of all: Galaxies and planets aren't evenly spaced out....
    Good point.

    Secondly: As far as I'm aware, the creation of life hasn't been understood that well yet. So we might not be aware of other inhibitors/factors that influence it.
    Furthermore: There must be extra hurdles for a species to evolve into abstract thinking cognitient beings. On earth, only humanoids managed that feat, from millions of species. Sure, we homo sapiens killed our competition (who we are closely related to), but why have no reptile people happened? And don't tell me about Hillary here. She's obviously a droid.
    Seriously though: We could be the first/only race that got this far. It could also be that hundreds of more advanced civilisations happened and all went extinct before we came along.
    That is the thing we are always working with two issues. On the one hand we now know exoplanets are not rare so we really do have a potential for a lot planets and lot of life of whatever kind. But in terms of getting to where we are we have a tiny sample of one. We are in fact a blip, and one that could be erased by our own hand or any number of extinction events that have happened in the past. There is no good way to quantify that, I mean maybe extinction events occur with such frequency even if life is common the reset button gets pushed just as often.

    Thirdly: Just because one civilisation is superior but not "moral", doesn't mean they'd attack straight away. Europe didn't colonise the Americas for hundreds of years after discovery. Why? Didn't seem worth it at the time.
    It's the same with the Roman Empire and Scotland/Ireland/Germania, so only very limited attempts were made. Same with them coming to us.
    Why would they want to conquer us? To tax us? Wouldn't it be easier to colonise some uninhabited planets first? Wouldn't it just as well be possible for them to have become more or less selfsufficient?
    I guess the OP is positing cheap and effective and safe FTL travel and communication. But that is speculative at best. With out that you are right. Why send generation ships or even Orion type ships if a star is closer than a light year? What if you get to the point where you can harvest your entire solar system for resources, move all dangerous or toxic manufacturing off planet, there is no shortage of resources anymore to cause misery and war etc. You might just be happy ogling the sky and sending out probes...
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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