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Thread: [Decision] Certification Program

  1. #61
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    What does a university degree have anything to do with historical research on a game? The university, I assume, granted them a degree for their work. I have a degree in history and yet I would not expect to 'certified" as if I did any research. It would be silly of me to think otherwise.

    I do not understand the quote of beginners. I use three terms; Basic/ Novice or Apprentice. Anyway, it is related to actual work on a game and not your real life personal accomplishments.
    It comes from a simple google search, if you type in beginner, this comes up. In other words, referencing to both of your preferred terms with a single word (beginner) is more efficient than mentioning both.

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    What I take issue with is that you're calling them a beginner and they're definitely not; so that's a flawed metric by my judgement.
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  2. #62
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    The site quoting system is out of whack, so I will address only one salient point you are making;
    Your proposal bounces across the field in how it is measured. Many metrics are not knowledge or skill based, they are literally quantity based. Your determinations on some points literally boil down to asking 'did he do research on this'. Quality is not a metric, only quantity until the sudden jump to evaluating quality on the final point - which, sure, I will give you, however it lacks metrics. If lacking consistent/present metrics in a certification scale is not an issue to you, then we can drop this point for good, and other readers may take it as they will.
    The system devised is based on feedback I have received. it is designed for simple application and ease of use that is easily understood. In most cases, there is only three levels. However i can ses that there is a 4th level that is beyond s simple quantitative measurement. This is the mastery level.

    If any modder in the areas outside of the areas I mod in have any insight on how best to divide the levels then i would gladly entertain the suggestions. As I said, I already asked other modders and this was what I came up with. The system is simple and the basis for something that could be better (possibly).

    Thanks for your feedback.

    z3n
    What I take issue with is that you're calling them a beginner and they're definitely not; so that's a flawed metric by my judgement.
    No, I am actually calling them an apprentice.
    1. Basic/ Novice: Apprentice
    2. Intermediate: Journeyman
    3. Advance: Craftsman
    4. Expert: Master Craftsman
    Level one is basic.
    Coding
    1: Basic Text editing (DB/ startpos editing resulting in minor changes to gameplay)
    Artist
    1: Basic texturing/ 2d Art (e.g. Unit cards)
    Graphics
    1: Graphical Changes


    Historical Researcher
    1: Single time period or game genre
    Resource/Guide Creator
    1: Created a Guide and/or resource for Modding
    Modding Support Tools Creator
    1: Created Modding Tool
    If you read through the other levels you will see that level one is basic. The goal is to present a graduated step of accomplishments that can be recognize encouraging further "study" of additional skills.
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  3. #63

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Let the record note the lack of address to the core angles and merely the generalist snip at a secondary concern pointing to the details. If that sounds contrary, yes, I do agree.
    The system devised is based on feedback I have received. it is designed for simple application and ease of use that is easily understood.
    And once again, the application is too simplistic, the ease of use is offset by the time of process for the benefits gained, and the easily understood goes only as far as the superficial measurement of the requirements. The moment you attempt to latch substantial thought into these certifications (disingenuous to the term, wouldn't you say? A certificate generally implies a solid block of measurement rather than 'have you made something, yes, certified you are'), they simply don't work and they are utterly meaningless.

    The system is simple and the basis for something that could be better (possibly).
    One does not simply pass something that's not very good in the hopes that it could be better with amendments. Things should pass because they're good, not because they hope to be.

    Thanks for your feedback.
    Ain't getting rid of me that easily.

    No, I am actually calling them an apprentice.
    Your quote literally defines basic and being a novice (synonymous with a beginner) with an apprentace, so you can scoot around the words as you like, but the fundamental is right in your definition of the levels. Even so, the fellow who does an extremely solid amount of work on a particular mod's research, more than someone who may otherwise attain "advanced" by simply doing a bit of googling for three mods, is going to be shafted and thus a textbook case of the critical flaw in this system. How many mods you do it for doesn't matter. It's meaningless. It's what you do for the mods, the effect it has. The measurable weight. To call someone who takes serious pride in their work an apprentace while endowing, I don't know, me a master because I've decided to do some googling for a few mods with a tiny fraction of the overall combined effort of one department of EB2's work. You're calling me a master for putting in a light degree of work to get a few mods out the door while calling the guy who's done serious work an apprentice. When someone wants to make a mod with substance, the record comparison is clear, and the certifications will go straight against that clarity. My ego's being needlessly appeased while the other guy's giving a resigned sigh that his hours are the work of an apprentice.

    If you read through the other levels you will see that level one is basic.
    Level 1 is not basic in each case. The levels bounce back and forth, but if you read through the level z3n is actually addressing, you're using a quality assessment of basic to define something that is just a number. A number easily inflated, but not as easy to do well.

    That said, many of the levels, say, in the ones you categorize as Coding, are also devoid of quality assessment when that is precisely what matters when assessing people. By your system we have a remarkable db effort outstretched by a middling or barely functional scripting job, graphical changes and mapping with more hours than the sloppy animating with the sloppy animating being advanced work, audio an undefined 'just there'. In the so called "Historical Research" category, we have the problems addressed now, where this is simply too narrow to result in a functional system:
    The goal is to present a graduated step of accomplishments that can be recognize encouraging further "study" of additional skills.
    To study implies measurable skill, and skill is measured in how well you do things. I would have hoped this would appear to you as an educator. Five D grades or acing a single test, disregarding test difficulty and potential for cheating. Are you really going to graduate the guy who does the same garbage over and over on the exact same test while the guy who knocked it out of the park gets a pat on the head and "you're an apprentice now"? Please, don't use mastery as a crutch for this, then you have an inconsistent system bouncing between metrics and further diminishing the value of the certificates.The guy who does an excellent job on a single genre does not need to be encouraged to study for doing extra periods when, for his field, he is a respectable journeyman or craftsman on a quality scale, while the guy who does a 'basic' job on each mod he works on is clearly at a higher level of knowledge. Seriously? Again, don't you know the difference in competence between being able to simply google and wikipedia everything and actually opening a book? If you do, well done, because your system does not. I could care less if other modders liked the metrics, they're free to challenge me if they in fact exist.

    Same problem on the guides and modding tools, same example. Spewing out garbage or minimally viable efforts or basic 'well, that works ok' effort is inherently much easier than hunking down and doing one thing well. To do multiple requires minimal investment and fairly simple writing. To do one right means you actually have to put in serious work. It's literally as sensible as judging how good a modder someone is by how many they made instead of what they made. The guy who publishes a few db edits in different mod files is higher level than the guy who produces a sizable texture overhaul. For a medieval 2 comparison, the guy who made Total Vanilla Beyond is below a fellow I knew who made 2-3 submods the quality of the so called "Sheep Mod". Use actual argumentation against this and you've deviated from the core of the OP, which is to judge purely on how many of something you make until suddenly, yep, you're a master for some reason. What would you consider master? By natural evolution, 4 guides written instead of the next level down, 3?

  4. #64

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    This proposal is vague yet convoluted. Whilst I do not protest the notion of tiered badges, I doubt it would be worth the administrative effort it would take to implement, particularly given the proposal's current lack of clarity. Opposed.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    @ epic
    This is not a tiered badge. The Artifex/Opifex is completely different.

    @ Commodus
    This is becoming ad nauseum. I have already addressed every point you have made.
    If something is "crap" then it is most likely would be seen as such and would not pass a vote.

    BTW, if I can if my students use an encyclopedia to do their work, then I can tell if a researcher has done just that as well. Plus as a teacher, I do not think I have ever made the perfect rubric on any assessment the first time I used it. This is meant to be some high academic endeavor. I mean, it is a gaming site after all. Modding is a hobby. It is fun and a learning experience. The purpose is to help create an incentive to post mods here. The levels were kept simple and easily discernable to prevent any strife.

    As I said before, if you have any suggestions, then by all means share.
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  6. #66

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    This is becoming ad nauseum. I have already addressed every point you have made.
    If something is "crap" then it is most likely would be seen as such and would not pass a vote.
    This is indeed becoming ad nauseum, because your replies boil down to vague rebuttals that don't share the point by point, specific issues of your detractors. Just comparing the substance of your replies with the substance of mine indicates you put in less than a fraction of the content trying to articulate what you are going for in a good portion of your posts, and that is one of the primary issues here.

    BTW, if I can if my students use an encyclopedia to do their work, then I can tell if a researcher has done just that as well.
    Irrelevant, out of context snip, quote sufficiently proving my point alongside what follows.

    Plus as a teacher, I do not think I have ever made the perfect rubric on any assessment the first time I used it.
    A rubric is not perfect on its first draft. A government law is not passed on its first draft. This is neither a rubric for an assessment nor a government law. It is a system that can be fully vetted and proofread over a clearly long scale of time so that it does not have to be critically flawed upon its implementation.

    I mean, it is a gaming site after all. Modding is a hobby. It is fun and a learning experience.
    And I encourage that instead of things like this, that attention be directed to things of more tangible benefit to modders and thus directly impact their achievements and enjoyment. Would you say randomly handing out grades for things they already did is more helpful than, say, attempting to use that same level of effort to help them expand their knowledge? I hope you will not be bogged by this one example as there is ever more content that is slowly falling by the wayside, but on this point alone, I'd like to see just a spark of progress on. By now I've made many suggestions for courses and concepts that can become more built straight into my points across over a dozen posts if you would only take them into account and stop ignoring them so you can pull the "if you have something better, suggest it" card intermittently.

    The purpose is to help create an incentive to post mods here. The levels were kept simple and easily discernable to prevent any strife.
    The system is not an incentive, not over something else that tangibly gives modders resources, or makes the site more convenient for them to work, or makes the site more approachable instead of adding system upon system for them to know about when many of them just want to throw their db edits somewhere that'll give them a comfy platform. The levels were kept too simple, contain elements I have repeatedly addressed the issues of ad nauseum (which take tooth pulling for you to address a fraction of) and cumulatively come up to a structure that does not truly give anything, just spins wheels for superficial satisfaction for the people voting on vague or pointlessly specific grounds to say 'I did something" and for the receiving modder to go "thanks I guess", naturally subject to a wider field of potential reactions.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    I have no ignored any of your points. We have a fundamental difference of opinion. My goal is to make a simple system that will hopefully encourage modders to "announce" their mods on TWC. Recognizing that they have achieve a certain level on various areas of skills is one way to do that. It would also be nice to have a built in system where experience modders can be encourage to share their knowledge. The system rewards this by recognizing the creation of guides and tutorial for the benefit of the community. Indirectly maybe some modders will publicly (I know a few who do it on the side) train prospective modders. In this way the system could work in tandem with the preexisting university system.

    As I already said, if you know of a better way to break down certain areas I will definitely consider it. The last time you made some sort of sarcastic remark how this isn't your proposal which is not at all helpful nor necessary to say. I think this is a very valid request.

    Please note the goal again. I want to keep this simple and has little bureaucratic as possible.
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  8. #68

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I have no ignored any of your points. We have a fundamental difference of opinion.
    You have not directly addressed a few of them, and the continuation has conveniently placed the core points on other pages. Here, let me bring them back for you.

    - Why does TWC actually need this. What does it truly offer on an investment (of time for judges) to reward ratio (for modders). The proposal strikes me as simply missing the point - the site's appeal comes in what content it offers at this time, not what 'certifications' it can project that have no weight on the far more used hosting platforms for modern content. Aside from a dig at an unmentioned point for Discord there has been no reply to this matter. The certifications mean nothing when they have no qualitative ground to stand on that would mark a modder as being truly accomplished in the things they specialize in. The same evidence they can pose for themselves, and since this system generally only looks at how many of a thing you do and not how well you do it, I'm aware of a few modders who would get high level certifications on this list that would cast doubt on the quality of judgements made by this program.
    - Total War Center suffers from users taking one look and simply going 'no thank you'. Its offerings are forums, awards, and resources that do not require any sort of membership to receive. A majority of mods seen on newer total war games do not require the sort of dedicated board that TWC offers and many folks are put off by the site having an extreme amount of bureaucracy to navigate through; perhaps not things that are critical, but simply a mass of things that are not necessary for the common, non grand overhaul modder to care about that exist anyways - and we can add this to the list based on the above point. I see no point in adding non-essential bureaucracy when the issue of appealing to the broader modding community is not in any way tackled.
    ^ The sequence I drew that from is especially egregious, three of the sentences were replied to and the meat, quoted above, never was.


    Let me add more points that were simply not addressed. I get falling some fall by the wayside, but at this point there's a long record of ignoring the inconvenient, so here is every inconvenient thing not subsequently addressed.
    Your quote literally defines basic and being a novice (synonymous with a beginner) with an apprentace, so you can scoot around the words as you like, but the fundamental is right in your definition of the levels. Even so, the fellow who does an extremely solid amount of work on a particular mod's research, more than someone who may otherwise attain "advanced" by simply doing a bit of googling for three mods, is going to be shafted and thus a textbook case of the critical flaw in this system. How many mods you do it for doesn't matter. It's meaningless. It's what you do for the mods, the effect it has. The measurable weight.
    Level 1 is not basic in each case. The levels bounce back and forth, but if you read through the level z3n is actually addressing, you're using a quality assessment of basic to define something that is just a number. A number easily inflated, but not as easy to do well.

    That said, many of the levels, say, in the ones you categorize as Coding, are also devoid of quality assessment when that is precisely what matters when assessing people. By your system we have a remarkable db effort outstretched by a middling or barely functional scripting job, graphical changes and mapping with more hours than the sloppy animating with the sloppy animating being advanced work, audio an undefined 'just there'. In the so called "Historical Research" category, we have the problems addressed now, where this is simply too narrow to result in a functional system
    And I encourage that instead of things like this, that attention be directed to things of more tangible benefit to modders and thus directly impact their achievements and enjoyment. Would you say randomly handing out grades for things they already did is more helpful than, say, attempting to use that same level of effort to help them expand their knowledge?
    [quote]
    To study implies measurable skill, and skill is measured in how well you do things. [...] The guy who does an excellent job on a single genre does not need to be encouraged to study for doing extra periods when, for his field, he is a respectable journeyman or craftsman on a quality scale, while the guy who does a 'basic' job on each mod he works on is clearly at a higher level of knowledge.
    disingenuous to the term, wouldn't you say? A certificate generally implies a solid block of measurement rather than 'have you made something, yes, certified you are'
    One does not simply pass something that's not very good in the hopes that it could be better with amendments. Things should pass because they're good, not because they hope to be.
    Your [original post] does not address precisely what makes your proposal a relevant block towards the larger problem, what makes the proposal's offerings hold meaning with the investment of time to present the results it does, and why it is the best we can muster when there are much more difficult but necessary issues to address that are at the crux of TWC's dwindling modern appeal.
    and from the very last post, something worthy of being replied to as it makes claims directly relevant to what you're talking about and make my very first quote in this sentence so ironic:
    The system is not an incentive, not over something else that tangibly gives modders resources, or makes the site more convenient for them to work, or makes the site more approachable instead of adding system upon system for them to know about when many of them just want to throw their db edits somewhere that'll give them a comfy platform. The levels were kept too simple, contain elements I have repeatedly addressed the issues of ad nauseum (which take tooth pulling for you to address a fraction of) and cumulatively come up to a structure that does not truly give anything, just spins wheels for superficial satisfaction for the people voting on vague or pointlessly specific grounds to say 'I did something" and for the receiving modder to go "thanks I guess", naturally subject to a wider field of potential reactions.
    [quote]
    Second, third, fourth fragments give addressable points, Second sentence first, fourth fragments give directly addressable points. If by "I have not ignored" we mean "I have given blanket replies that say new/rehashed things and mostly don't talk about anything from the old replies that's currently in discussion", then fair enough, we seem to have reached a fundamental interest in opinion.

    There is probably more from earlier pages I'm just going to let go, and if there is one of these you can quote a direct reply to that I've missed, I apologize and will adjust accordingly.

    We certainly do have fundamental differences of opinion, but to make that untenable in discussion is to try and address them and then to say 'we just don't have the same basis of facts, this is pointless' and digress accordingly. I suppose I'm just here to make a point at this juncture, since everyone who is likely to support has already posted and those who don't have replied accordingly. The snails pace of progress and the frequent repetition trying to get the right bone makes moving forward a perfectly reasonable move despite the fact it would pretty much cut this off.

    The blanket "it's not meant to be thought about too much" and "it's just a modding forum" and "I don't want it to be bureaucratic" used in reply to the above is unacceptable in a thread discussing the merits of the proposal. When two parties fundamentally disagree, there are two options. Ignore it completely or dig into the root of the content and have it out down to small levels in the hope of finding a more long lasting resolution, and if not that, at least fully identify where each party stands and give outsiders the opportunity to see the logic of both and decide accordingly.

    There is of course the 'average' between them, but I feel - based on this conversation - that said average really doesn't par up to either course and leaves things in an untenable middle.

    New points, new go.

    My goal is to make a simple system that will hopefully encourage modders to "announce" their mods on TWC. Recognizing that they have achieve a certain level on various areas of skills is one way to do that. It would also be nice to have a built in system where experience modders can be encourage to share their knowledge. The system rewards this by recognizing the creation of guides and tutorial for the benefit of the community. Indirectly maybe some modders will publicly (I know a few who do it on the side) train prospective modders. In this way the system could work in tandem with the preexisting university system.
    - Recognizing that they have done research for a particular mod or done something in a particular element of a mod does not strike me as a direct form of encouragement, rather, a hopeful 'maybe if we throw them a bone they'll decide to... announce their mods' . Logically this seems to be a bit of a stretch, particularly in tandem with the ideas above of the superficial nature of the certifications and the bureaucratic overhead putting all this together when, say, the modding staff could invest in ways to make the site's actual offerings more approachable in the first place rather than the endgame of being rewarded. Just recently I've gotten opinions on TWC. "Steam workshop is too convenient", "there's too much stuff to do", "I just want to host my mods, I don't need those bells and whistles" (all paraphrased pieces of what I've heard). They cannot all be completely addressed and on the latter point there's no need to do so, but to address those would be to address measurable concerns people have with coming onto the platform. This is something that straight up wasn't asked for. If we're trying to address the root of the problem, then we should identify and address people's root concerns, not add solutions that unconvincingly make up a premise built on 'maybe if we do something they'll respond'. Perhaps that sort of logic would hold better if it was something substantial and relevant to the aforementioned areas being done.
    - Recognizing guides and tutorials is absolutely a good thing. This system goes about it in a very narrow minded way. The substance of a guide determines how good it is and thus how skilled the maker is, not the amount he's made. I consider it intellectually dishonest to make people superficially produce more for recognition when their original work is already substantially high quality, and if you attribute any reward to this (or even if it's just that pat on the back) you then get people who write superficial, poorly researched and rather unnecessary guides purely for recognition. Reliability and weight when judging two people on the system is then lost.
    - "Maybe some modders will publicly train perspective modders", maybe they'll do this for all sorts of reasons. Maybe the Modding Staff could cut to the chase and find people willing to share their wits and knowledge with anyone who asks for it, or seek out modders who can say 'hey, need anything'. This can be approached far more directly with more viably measured results.
    - Informal tutoring or lending help outside of any official scope is drastically different from the university system. The two are night and day in their functionality. Any sort of link is a stretch and I ask that you dismiss this point unless you can definitively link the two concepts. Otherwise they have zero relation in the scope of this proposal. The university is a formal, volunteer-to-do-it system that requires quite a bit of prep and investment to do, never mind its current lack of serious life. The spitting opposite of any sort of informal tutoring that would arise from a philanthropist modder saying 'hey, I got some tips".

    As I already said, if you know of a better way to break down certain areas I will definitely consider it.
    And now I again say, refer to the above, read prior posts or for the love of Astrogha, be more specific. I'll take specifics in any area at this juncture.

    Please note the goal again. I want to keep this simple and has little bureaucratic as possible.
    To do so is to incur the main big quoteboxes above in this post, but I'll give a simple rebuttal that depends on having fully read the above.

    If it cannot be expanded to address its flaws, it should be dismissed and the creative energy with which this was made and defended should be directed to other as of yet unmade proposals addressing legitimate complaints that can be done both simply and in a way to give them substance.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    I have thought about this some more and I think, while still suited for the TWC University, this proposal does hold some merit. Specifically as oriented towards what we used to call the, "Total-War Community". That is, individuals interested in experiencing TW games and modding them would be particularly applicable to this idea.

    My biggest concern now is the TWC is no longer able to produce a useful population of individuals who would be interested in this type of program. In the long-run, however, I feel this type of structure could benefit TWC.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    This proposal haven't got a response for almost 1˝ month, so why not mark it as abandoned and archive it as such.
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  11. #71
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    I have thought about this some more and I think, while still suited for the TWC University, this proposal does hold some merit. Specifically as oriented towards what we used to call the, "Total-War Community". That is, individuals interested in experiencing TW games and modding them would be particularly applicable to this idea.

    My biggest concern now is the TWC is no longer able to produce a useful population of individuals who would be interested in this type of program. In the long-run, however, I feel this type of structure could benefit TWC.
    This is why I am on the fence in regards to this idea. It would be beneficial, but it may be too little too late. I am also cooking up another idea but it does not involve TWC since TWC will gradually be just a discussion forum with some AARs, and other incidentals.
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  12. #72
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    As this thread has had no posts in over 28 days, I'll be archiving this and marking as abandoned.

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