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Thread: [Decision] Certification Program

  1. #41
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    As mentionned several times already, there are other ways to promote modding than creating such blingbling committee (or whatever you want to name it). Modders aren't little kids happy to receive a pic for being good boys
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  2. #42
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The levels are black and white. There is virtually no subjective or biased possible unless you have a vendetta.
    As I mentioned before, there isn't a bureaucracy. The structure is anarchic in nature. It is modders determining if a modder did 'x."
    You are painting over extremely subjective determinations with the brush of objectivity. It does not work.

    The very first issue with your determining if a modder did 'x' is how a modder did 'x'. The boundaries between each shade of competence; basic, intermediate, mastery, particularly on artistic, sound and particularly the guide writing/modding tool sections that are written purely as participation awards with no regard at all between competence in making them. Without persistent, objective metrics between each level that determines how something is done as compared to simply if it is done, you will result in biases, different degrees of knowledge and simple cases of certain modders going 'I like this' and others going 'meh'. Thus you are left with certifications done on the metric of what this particular base likes, which is rather weightless and does nothing to advance the given modder's level or even seriously note them for their achievements since the same is given to an interested party by simply listing what they've done.

    The kicker is that if you were to introduce satisfactory considerations for quality, which can be quite complicated and tend to either result in just too narrow a scope or a gargantuen blob of rules, you would then result in a bureaucratic entity that has people wasting too much time seeing if it qualifies on a black and white level that actually means anything. The issue is considerably more grey than the more 'black and white' subsequent reply as warscape modders could indeed be fully capable of judging pre-warscape modders, but on their own scale. Again, you are either judging on superficial participation awards, rendering an opinion on their artistic merits and such, or simply providing a redundant 'yes he did this' when he has absolutely no need for such a certification since it would generally apply to 'look at me I got this' (yey?) or 'I'm trying to join the team and I got this' (yeah, that's nice, now tell me what you actually did so I know if I like how you do it).

    Only the middle point was addressed, so I will expand and repeat the prior and subsequent point as there can be no satisfactory conclusion until they are addressed.

    - Why does TWC actually need this. What does it truly offer on an investment (of time for judges) to reward ratio (for modders). The proposal strikes me as simply missing the point - the site's appeal comes in what content it offers at this time, not what 'certifications' it can project that have no weight on the far more used hosting platforms for modern content such as Moddb and Steam, heck, I've seen discord servers be modder communities. Even if you can pose a convincing justification for investment to reward, I'll add an extra point that must be considered in tandem.

    - Browsing the various total war communities, I have concluded the primary issue that TWC is facing is, simply put, being a monster to approach. Too much stuff to see and know, all in the package of an old platform that truly does not appeal to a large portion of modern audiences anymore. The professed goal is to encourage the modding community to grow, but I issue the bold (or perhaps not) claim that the community will never substantially grow on the current track and structure. It cannot. The dynamics have changed. Mods on the whole are piecemeal chunks that affect mere lines compared to the scale of a medieval 2 era overhaul or the occasional true mod of substance produced for more recent games. Even some Medieval 2 era submods I've seen have steered clear from TWC because they do not need a static forum, and at best only require the instant communication and contact of a discord server to reach their community. This proposal will not encourage people who are unappealed by the structure of the site. If anything, it is a slight mark against as being yet another thing in the structure, a 'reward' when the 'participant' has multiple - valid! - bones with even 'playing' the TWC 'game'.

    - This is a simple but essential one. 2/3rds of all eligible voters, 2/3rds of an active core, or 2/3rds of people who care to vote?

    - An addendum; I'm not sure this proposal was well proofread, and while I'm on this, I'll specifically mention the complete abstract that goes back to refuting your original reply.
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Historical Researcher
    1: Single time period or game genre
    2: Two Games or game genres
    3: Three or more games or genres
    4: Mastery

    Modding Tools
    1: Created Modding Tool
    2: Created two or more tools
    3: Multiple development of tools
    4: Mastery
    Two games? Three or more games? I assume something was mixed in translation here and 2-3 mean genre.

    Multiple development of tools is literally created two or more tools. They're the same thing. There is nothing within the levels that denote a difference between judging them and on what level of contribution they are judged.

    No, seriously,

    My specific knowledge would say it is 2 or more verbatim, but this is close enough.

    Some of the levels seem a bit silly and have lines blur between levels and mastery. When you have completely quantity based metrics jump over to the very opinion-based determination of mastery, you are effectively bouncing between two scales of judgement. Someone who performs the research work for all of EB2 and pours a great portion of their life into the work technically only qualifies for the apprentice level, and yet someone who rapidfires google-quality research between three mods - passably, mind you, they did look things up and contribute all that is necessary to an ultimately much more humble mod - is a craftsman at the art, potentially a master considering there is no quantification for when you achieve mastery.

    The miscellaneous section is indeed miscellaneous, but while the order is acceptable on average, it particularly misses the concept of quality between levels. The music level can include a user who created their own sets of audio or even produced their own tracks for the game; just one specific element, hardly enough to be Master of the Miscellaneous, but considerably more than someone who dabbles in animation for a few mods. I would honestly consider good audio work miles above TES:TW's work on the mounted dunmer units, as the animations make me want to laugh and actually damage my immersion in the mod despite being perfectly serviceable. This is a subjective take (and perhaps the animation work took a long time and some complicated work to achieve), but there we have it, we are trying to make a presumably objective scale when the judgements are entirely subjective without measured scales. You list things - they are not scales, and if they are supposed to be, they are poor ones.

    The scales attempt to bounce between progression and encompassing as many fields as possible when the arching idea is progression. Some fields are judged on what people consider quality and others, on what raw content can be cranked out regardless of its use. It tries to be many things and doesn't do them particularly well. The shell is here, but not the execution. Without substance, how is the structure to have any meaning? And a final kicker for my opposition, once you do put in that substance, you have effectively spent time and energy building up viable infrastructure when the issues at a community level rest at the roots, not in the branches.
    With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
    Spoiler for wait what dragons?



  3. #43

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    You are painting over extremely subjective determinations with the brush of objectivity. It does not work.

    The very first issue with your determining if a modder did 'x' is how a modder did 'x'. The boundaries between each shade of competence; basic, intermediate, mastery, particularly on artistic, sound and particularly the guide writing/modding tool sections that are written purely as participation awards with no regard at all between competence in making them. Without persistent, objective metrics between each level that determines how something is done as compared to simply if it is done, you will result in biases, different degrees of knowledge and simple cases of certain modders going 'I like this' and others going 'meh'. Thus you are left with certifications done on the metric of what this particular base likes, which is rather weightless and does nothing to advance the given modder's level or even seriously note them for their achievements since the same is given to an interested party by simply listing what they've done.
    The different levels were determined between my own personal experiences modding and my discussions I have had with modders over the years.

    The kicker is that if you were to introduce satisfactory considerations for quality, which can be quite complicated and tend to either result in just too narrow a scope or a gargantuen blob of rules, you would then result in a bureaucratic entity that has people wasting too much time seeing if it qualifies on a black and white level that actually means anything. The issue is considerably more grey than the more 'black and white' subsequent reply as warscape modders could indeed be fully capable of judging pre-warscape modders, but on their own scale. Again, you are either judging on superficial participation awards, rendering an opinion on their artistic merits and such, or simply providing a redundant 'yes he did this' when he has absolutely no need for such a certification since it would generally apply to 'look at me I got this' (yey?) or 'I'm trying to join the team and I got this' (yeah, that's nice, now tell me what you actually did so I know if I like how you do it).
    Participation in the process is voluntary. Modders are pretty good with given feedback on both quality and quantity of work through my discussions whenever I patronized a modder for citizenship. If a Moder can "x" is not as subjective as you make it out to be. If it isn't good, then it isn't a skill. Modders are also one of the most helpful groups and if someone has failings, it will be quickly resolved. There is a teaching moment that can be made here.

    - Why does TWC actually need this. What does it truly offer on an investment (of time for judges) to reward ratio (for modders). The proposal strikes me as simply missing the point - the site's appeal comes in what content it offers at this time, not what 'certifications' it can project that have no weight on the far more used hosting platforms for modern content such as Moddb and Steam, heck, I've seen discord servers be modder communities. Even if you can pose a convincing justification for investment to reward, I'll add an extra point that must be considered in tandem.
    despite the fact that the site was mostly a discussion forum when it was first started, most come here to find mods. Without mods, I do not think TWC would be any more significant than Org. In the past, people stayed for the content, but youtube is more accessible and better appreciated than written content. The site is facing to squeezing points, an attraction of members and retention of members. If the site does nothing. it will become a ghost town in time.

    - Browsing the various total war communities, I have concluded the primary issue that TWC is facing is, simply put, being a monster to approach. Too much stuff to see and know, all in the package of an old platform that truly does not appeal to a large portion of modern audiences anymore. The professed goal is to encourage the modding community to grow, but I issue the bold (or perhaps not) claim that the community will never substantially grow on the current track and structure. It cannot. The dynamics have changed. Mods on the whole are piecemeal chunks that affect mere lines compared to the scale of a medieval 2 era overhaul or the occasional true mod of substance produced for more recent games. Even some Medieval 2 era submods I've seen have steered clear from TWC because they do not need a static forum, and at best only require the instant communication and contact of a discord server to reach their community. This proposal will not encourage people who are unappealed by the structure of the site. If anything, it is a slight mark against as being yet another thing in the structure, a 'reward' when the 'participant' has multiple - valid! - bones with even 'playing' the TWC 'game'.
    The notorious, "The index is too large" argument.
    People need to stop claiming discord is instant. It is only instant if the person you are asking is online at the time.
    Most modders and mod teams have multiple platforms, including Imperial Splendour.

    - This is a simple but essential one. 2/3rds of all eligible voters, 2/3rds of an active core, or 2/3rds of people who care to vote?
    2/3 of the vote. No quorum is needed.

    Two games? Three or more games? I assume something was mixed in translation here and 2-3 mean genre.

    Multiple development of tools is literally created two or more tools. They're the same thing. There is nothing within the levels that denote a difference between judging them and on what level of contribution they are judged.

    No, seriously,
    I will seriously look at it.

    The scales attempt to bounce between progression and encompassing as many fields as possible when the arching idea is progression. Some fields are judged on what people consider quality and others, on what raw content can be cranked out regardless of its use. It tries to be many things and doesn't do them particularly well. The shell is here, but not the execution. Without substance, how is the structure to have any meaning? And a final kicker for my opposition, once you do put in that substance, you have effectively spent time and energy building up viable infrastructure when the issues at a community level rest at the roots, not in the branches.
    If you have a suggestion, then make them.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The different levels were determined between my own personal experiences modding and my discussions I have had with modders over the years.
    That's nice. However you determined them does not in any way address or refute my commentary on their design. How they are determined is not a shield from criticising their structure, and so this comment is pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Participation in the process is voluntary. Modders are pretty good with given feedback on both quality and quantity of work through my discussions whenever I patronized a modder for citizenship. If a Moder can "x" is not as subjective as you make it out to be. If it isn't good, then it isn't a skill. Modders are also one of the most helpful groups and if someone has failings, it will be quickly resolved. There is a teaching moment that can be made here.
    Modders are pretty good at giving feedback. They're a pretty diverse audience with a pretty wide mix of opinions on a variety of modding related subjects. If it is good, it is good based on a particular modder's decision. Things can hit a border in which a higher standard modder will say 'bleh' and one of the less raw polish modders will say 'that's pretty nice'. So, yes, determination is subjective, and you've missed everything that points to specific cases. The rest is not worth addressing as it has nothing to do with my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    despite the fact that the site was mostly a discussion forum when it was first started, most come here to find mods. Without mods, I do not think TWC would be any more significant than Org. In the past, people stayed for the content, but youtube is more accessible and better appreciated than written content. The site is facing to squeezing points, an attraction of members and retention of members. If the site does nothing. it will become a ghost town in time.
    You acknowledge the problem. The acknowledgement does nothing to address my first point regarding the necessity of this particular idea. It does nothing to make the site more appealing to the audience of lower material mods. It will indeed become a ghost town if it does nothing. It will also become a ghost town if the attempts to address the issue miss the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The notorious, "The index is too large" argument.
    People need to stop claiming discord is instant. It is only instant if the person you are asking is online at the time.
    Most modders and mod teams have multiple platforms, including Imperial Splendour.
    The notorious "avoid the point" argument, which seems to be frequent in your reply. The blurb was not debating the particulars of how instant discord is, merely to express the fact that people have preferences and these days discord is one of the primary options. There are reasons for it and the reasons are varied.

    However, in relation to the claim of discord being instant (which wasn't made but I'll take it seriously anyways), the simple fact remains that if TWC and Discord both run in the background as you are doing things, TWC at best changes a number in the tab assuming TWC does that well or email notifications are on, while discord gives a nice red dot and a ping. It is substantially quicker and the path to reaching a ping is next to instant compared to a forum platform. That said, this is not the point and I will not continue further down the rabbit hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    If you have a suggestion, then make them.
    Begin with making a more comprehensive point by point reply to the specific issues raised. It is not my job to pitch your proposal that I am asking about.
    With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
    Spoiler for wait what dragons?



  5. #45

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    That's nice. However you determined them does not in any way address or refute my commentary on their design. How they are determined is not a shield from criticising their structure, and so this comment is pointless.
    Modders are pretty good at giving feedback. They're a pretty diverse audience with a pretty wide mix of opinions on a variety of modding related subjects. If it is good, it is good based on a particular modder's decision. Things can hit a border in which a higher standard modder will say 'bleh' and one of the less raw polish modders will say 'that's pretty nice'. So, yes, determination is subjective, and you've missed everything that points to specific cases. The rest is not worth addressing as it has nothing to do with my post.
    The burden is 2/3 majority. There isn't an expectation that there is 100% agreement. When I stated that it was objective based I was referring to the fact the criteria was quantitative rather than qualitative which leaves a great deal more room for debate.


    You acknowledge the problem. The acknowledgement does nothing to address my first point regarding the necessity of this particular idea. It does nothing to make the site more appealing to the audience of lower material mods. It will indeed become a ghost town if it does nothing. It will also become a ghost town if the attempts to address the issue miss the point.
    Modders already stated that they like the idea.


    The notorious "avoid the point" argument, which seems to be frequent in your reply. The blurb was not debating the particulars of how instant discord is, merely to express the fact that people have preferences and these days discord is one of the primary options. There are reasons for it and the reasons are varied.

    However, in relation to the claim of discord being instant (which wasn't made but I'll take it seriously anyways), the simple fact remains that if TWC and Discord both run in the background as you are doing things, TWC at best changes a number in the tab assuming TWC does that well or email notifications are on, while discord gives a nice red dot and a ping. It is substantially quicker and the path to reaching a ping is next to instant compared to a forum platform. That said, this is not the point and I will not continue further down the rabbit hole.
    You mentioned discord, not me. Let's stay above ground by all means.

    Begin with making a more comprehensive point by point reply to the specific issues raised. It is not my job to pitch your proposal that I am asking about.
    I am not asking you to "pitch" anything. You seem to have a strong opinion, so I am curious just what is on your mind. If you are not interested in doing so that is fine too. I will take your comments under advisement and make adjustments where appropriate. Thank you for your time.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The burden is 2/3 majority. There isn't an expectation that there is 100% agreement. When I stated that it was objective based I was referring to the fact the criteria was quantitative rather than qualitative which leaves a great deal more room for debate.
    There was never a statement of 100% agreement being necessary, only one that questions the value of judgements and the proposal as a whole in the bigger picture.

    The criteria is both quantitative and qualitative, and in some cases, it is neither at all. Refer to the below;
    Coding
    1: Basic Text editing DB changes and maybe basic startpos editing (not a quantified range)
    2: Level two start pos & detailed DB editing (a vague metric, particularly on what 'level two start pos' means)
    3: Scripting (there is no specification of how much or how well this scripting is done; at face value all it means is 'you've done some sort of scripting')
    4. Mastery (not quantified or qualified at all)

    Artist
    1: Basic texturing (no quantified metrics, qualitative on the basis of 'basic' assuming a 'basic quality level')
    2: Texturing/basic Modeling (Roughly ^)
    3: Full unit modeling (^)
    4: Mastery (not quantified or qualified at all)

    Miscellaneous
    1: Audio Changes (an extremely broad spectrum that could simply mean 'ya did it somewhere to some extent', likely resulting in both forms of judgement. If this is done purely qualitatively, the metric is worthless in indicating skill in the subject)
    2; Visual/ Graphical changes (^)
    3: Animation (^)
    4: Mastery (not quantified or qualified at all)

    Historical Researcher
    1: Single time period or game genre (quantitative)
    2: Two Games or game genres (quantitative)
    3: Three or more games or genres (quantitative)
    4: Mastery (not quantified or qualified at all)

    Resource Creator
    1: Created a Guide for Modding(quantitative)
    2: Created two or more guides for Modding (^, though with overlap below that has no quantification)
    3: Mastery (not quantified or qualified at all)

    Modding Tools
    1: Created Modding Tool (quantitative)
    2: Created two or more tools (quantitative)
    3: Multiple development of tools (^, though as noted a few posts back, a redundant metric with the above and more vague to boot)
    4: Mastery(not quantified or qualified at all)

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Modders already stated that they like the idea.
    "Modders" is a bold claim that points to no established consensus given the debate already present in this page. To make a broad claim that 'modders like the idea' is not to address the points questioning its merits. People can indeed like something en masse while missing the fact that it does not address the problem at hand, which is something I would argue for on a wider scale were it brought up in a more broad thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    You mentioned discord, not me. Let's stay above ground by all means.
    Reply to what I specifically argue, not a subset of an example that is besides the key point. That is integral to this stretch of conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I am not asking you to "pitch" anything. You seem to have a strong opinion, so I am curious just what is on your mind. If you are not interested in doing so that is fine too. I will take your comments under advisement and make adjustments where appropriate. Thank you for your time.
    I have a strong opinion when I observe a heavily flawed proposal that I really do not believe holds any benefit to the site. What I have in mind I shall repeat once again.

    - Why does TWC actually need this. What does it truly offer on an investment (of time for judges) to reward ratio (for modders). The proposal strikes me as simply missing the point - the site's appeal comes in what content it offers at this time, not what 'certifications' it can project that have no weight on the far more used hosting platforms for modern content. Aside from a dig at an unmentioned point for Discord there has been no reply to this matter. The certifications mean nothing when they have no qualitative ground to stand on that would mark a modder as being truly accomplished in the things they specialize in. The same evidence they can pose for themselves, and since this system generally only looks at how many of a thing you do and not how well you do it, I'm aware of a few modders who would get high level certifications on this list that would cast doubt on the quality of judgements made by this program.

    - Total War Center suffers from users taking one look and simply going 'no thank you'. Its offerings are forums, awards, and resources that do not require any sort of membership to receive. A majority of mods seen on newer total war games do not require the sort of dedicated board that TWC offers and many folks are put off by the site having an extreme amount of bureaucracy to navigate through; perhaps not things that are critical, but simply a mass of things that are not necessary for the common, non grand overhaul modder to care about that exist anyways - and we can add this to the list based on the above point. I see no point in adding non-essential bureaucracy when the issue of appealing to the broader modding community is not in any way tackled.
    With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
    Spoiler for wait what dragons?



  7. #47

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    @Pikestance
    Here are some thoughts about this certification system.

    The current award system with the awards Artifex and Opifex is appreciated and well known. Probably creating a "middle" award could be easier and could use also what z3n wrote in his thread here. Instead of creating another certification system, this could be probably done also with enhancing the current TWC University system and then awarding the medals/certificates of the TWC University.

    For me modding was never a competition about who is better or more advanced. It's about cooperation, team work, sharing wisdom and helping each other for the benefit of all modders, players and users of TWC.

    Judging about the skills of modders during the certification process and saying no/yes to them could be taken probably a little bit insulting and create "bad blood" too.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Halberdier View Post
    @Pikestance
    I get your idea of trying to get more modders back again on TWC. Here are some thoughts about this certification system.

    The current award system with the awards Artifex and Opifex is appreciated and well known. Probably creating a "middle" award could be easier and could use also what z3n wrote in his thread here. Instead of creating another certification system, this could be probably done also with enhancing the current TWC University system and then awarding the medals/certificates of the TWC University.

    For me modding was never a competition about who is better or more advanced. It's about cooperation, team work, sharing wisdom and helping each other for the benefit of all modders, players and users of TWC.

    Judging about the skills of modders during the certification process and saying no/yes to them could be taken a little bit insulting and create "bad blood" too.
    For me modding was never a competition about who is better or more advanced. It's about cooperation, team work, sharing wisdom and helping each other for the benefit of all modders, players and users of TWC.
    This was always my thoughts as well old chum, remember ETW when hardly anyone cooperated? then we had the modders think tank to fix the bad A.I in battles, all the modders got together to look for and work together on a solution, and we did? finally C.A. decided to offer further patches to fix the problems after they had said no further patches would be released?
    That spirit of cooperation and teamwork made me proud to be a part of the team and earned me an award for "modding mentor" a victory for modders.

    "No problem can withstand the assault of sustained Dufferism"

  9. #49
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Halberdier View Post
    The current award system with the awards Artifex and Opifex is appreciated and well known. Probably creating a "middle" award could be easier and could use also what z3n wrote in his thread here. Instead of creating another certification system, this could be probably done also with enhancing the current TWC University system and then awarding the medals/certificates of the TWC University.

    For me modding was never a competition about who is better or more advanced. It's about cooperation, team work, sharing wisdom and helping each other for the benefit of all modders, players and users of TWC.
    Quote Originally Posted by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham View Post
    This was always my thoughts as well old chum, remember ETW when hardly anyone cooperated? then we had the modders think tank to fix the bad A.I in battles, all the modders got together to look for and work together on a solution, and we did? finally C.A. decided to offer further patches to fix the problems after they had said no further patches would be released?
    That spirit of cooperation and teamwork made me proud to be a part of the team and earned me an award for "modding mentor" a victory for modders.
    These two posts reminds me why the TES modding community still have an Unofficial game patch, just to fix the bugs in vanilla. Which covers the most popular Bethesda game titles.

    Morrowind (I once started the Unofficial Morrowind Patch project)
    Oblivion
    Skyrim (both the Legendary Edition and the Special Edition)
    Fallout 3
    Fallout 4

    All the other games has an Unofficial game patch forum on AFK Mods.

    That being said, why not have an Unofficial game patch for the TW game titles on TWC.


    As others already stated, I am opposed to this idea.
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  10. #50
    La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham's Avatar Artifex♔Duffer♔Civitate
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Yes I am pretty much opposed this idea, as I think it may create divisions.

    "No problem can withstand the assault of sustained Dufferism"

  11. #51

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    There was never a statement of 100% agreement being necessary, only one that questions the value of judgements and the proposal as a whole in the bigger picture.

    The criteria is both quantitative and qualitative, and in some cases, it is neither at all. Refer to the below; [clip]...

    I have a strong opinion when I observe a heavily flawed proposal that I really do not believe holds any benefit to the site. What I have in mind I shall repeat once again.
    As I already mentioned previously, I will take your feedback under advisement. If you believe the idea is not beneficial then I really do not know what you want to discuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Halberdier View Post
    @Pikestance
    Here are some thoughts about this certification system.

    The current award system with the awards Artifex and Opifex is appreciated and well known. Probably creating a "middle" award could be easier and could use also what z3n wrote in his thread here. Instead of creating another certification system, this could be probably done also with enhancing the current TWC University system and then awarding the medals/certificates of the TWC University.

    For me modding was never a competition about who is better or more advanced. It's about cooperation, team work, sharing wisdom and helping each other for the benefit of all modders, players and users of TWC.

    Judging about the skills of modders during the certification process and saying no/yes to them could be taken probably a little bit insulting and create "bad blood" too.
    The Certification is not a competition anymore more than plumber competes with each other over being a certified plumber.
    The levels are specifically designed to take out any "guesswork" as possible. Did/can the modder do "x". It is a yes or no.

    I will be sharing something with you via Steam. Thanks for your feedback!

  12. #52
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Opposed. Commodus has already and eloquently made all the points I would have liked to make (and more) and his pertinent questions remain unanswered.
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  13. #53
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    As I already mentioned previously, I will take your feedback under advisement. If you believe the idea is not beneficial then I really do not know what you want to discuss.
    I really do not know why you completely avoid my direct questions that strike at the heart of the matter. It strikes me as a bad day reading at best and willful deflection at worst. If the points are confusing, say as much so I may reframe them, but I have received no feedback on them at all. As the core points have, it seems, been ignored in favor of addressing sideline angles and easier statements, I find it disingenuous to say you will take the feedback under advisement when the pillars of what remains are not necessarily feedback so much as challenging the heart and soul of the proposal. The comment is a 'yes yes go away' in function and form.

    While you are free to have a lower regard for non-citizens, it seems evident to me that there are citizens who do agree, and thus answering the core points does matter to the survival of the proposal.
    Last edited by Dismounted Feudal Knight; March 14, 2019 at 06:48 AM.
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  14. #54

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    I really do not know why you completely avoid my direct questions that strike at the heart of the matter. It strikes me as a bad day reading at best and willful deflection at worst. If the points are confusing, say as much so I may reframe them, but I have received no feedback on them at all. As the core points have, it seems, been ignored in favor of addressing sideline angles and easier statements, I find it disingenuous to say you will take the feedback under advisement when the pillars of what remains are not necessarily feedback so much as challenging the heart and soul of the proposal. The comment is a 'yes yes go away' in function and form.

    While you are free to have a lower regard for non-citizens, it seems evident to me that there are citizens who do agree, and thus answering the core points does matter to the survival of the proposal.
    I have already answered the questions in post #46.

    The proposal is not meant to be a problem solver by itself. It is a building block. It is a suggestion of something different in the hopes that it would be attractive to post mods here. If it fails to attract mods then there isn't much else the site could do to attract modders here. Modding Staff is also another "great white hops" for site recovery of lost mods/ modders. Not only does the site have to do more for mod-users, but it has demonstrated it can do more for the modding community. The former is useless without the latter. I stated all of this in the first page of this thread.

    As far as your suggestions, I have taken it as advisement and have some adjustments.

    4: Mastery (not quantified or qualified at all)
    The final level is not quantitatively. it is purposely qualitative. The "mastery" level is just that. When someone is a master, it is again easily discernable.
    It is hoped that at this level, any "master" would teach their knowledge and skill. Also stated on page one, this is not knowledge-based, but skill based.

    3: Scripting (there is no specification of how much or how well this scripting is done; at face value all it means is 'you've done some sort of scripting')
    You either know how to do it or you do not. I never have seen anyone who can script not make changes to startpos and db editing.

    Miscellaneous
    This is now Graphical Changes and Audio is part of coding.

    The rest I correct the errors. Most were simple editing errors on my part.

  15. #55
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    I have said it before...Its true that most of modders do not need Award badges to start or continue modding. But there is a large number of them that:
    a) Are in the strart of their modding attempts and needs some aknowlegment as sign that their efforts did not pass un-notticed.
    b) Are in the pursuit of rep points
    c) They dream to have one of the "shiny badges" you all say that mean nothing but you all keep under your Avatar as sign of a kind of superiority. I did not start modding to have the badge of Artifex and that is why i left that group. But allow my humble nottice...you keep saying that badges mean nothing but you continue to use them. The pursuit of those badges is obvius when many modders try hard to find a patron (what is a patron anyway??) to nominate them in a close CAST of friends that public relations play more role than the modding its self. Prove me wrong i dare you.
    Now the crusial question is this.
    DO WE WISH TWC to continue exist ? If your answer is YES then we must attract new modding blood (i am 49 years old and too close to death), in order to allow TWC continue to offer what it offered so many years.
    You can keep your shiny badges but low down your eyes to young kids that are in their beginings and give them soe attention EVEN if that attention will be a worthless to real life badge that it wont be so shiny like yours.
    So ... today we have modders that took everything valuebale from TWC and returned NOTHING to it posting their mods (that they did not create them with their knowlege of their own by 100%) elsewere and you treat them a modding Gods!
    But TWC needs to survinve so take a look to small badges and certification issues UNDER THIS PROSPECTIVE if you love the site that feed your egos by giving you so many shiny badges and you wish it to continue exist. My language may seam sharp and few may find it offendive but I am a follower of Socrates' philosophy and I learned to speak the truth without and candy to make it sweet to your ears.
    Last edited by Katsumoto; March 18, 2019 at 10:11 AM. Reason: not needed
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  16. #56
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Some parts of this really don't make sense, I think Commodius made his point very well.

    I can't really support it when I know there's people in EBII who have finished their PhDs in history, and have spent many long hours researching before that and afterword just because it's their passion and was in line with their thesis projects at times.

    So to call them "beginners" and only give them level 1, in researching is ridiculous. Ludicrous. It's really flawed as an idea to prefer quantity in that sense.
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  17. #57

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Is there any topic brainstorming the solution to the main issue (reduced twcenter population)? If there is please tell me which one. If not it would be good to open one and check options.

  18. #58

    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Some parts of this really don't make sense, I think Commodius made his point very well.

    I can't really support it when I know there's people in EBII who have finished their PhDs in history, and have spent many long hours researching before that and afterword just because it's their passion and was in line with their thesis projects at times.

    So to call them "beginners" and only give them level 1, in researching is ridiculous. Ludicrous. It's really flawed as an idea to prefer quantity in that sense.
    What does a university degree have anything to do with historical research on a game? The university, I assume, granted them a degree for their work. I have a degree in history and yet I would not expect to 'certified" as if I did any research. It would be silly of me to think otherwise.

    I do not understand the quote of beginners. I use three terms; Basic/ Novice or Apprentice. Anyway, it is related to actual work on a game and not your real life personal accomplishments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weierstrass View Post
    Is there any topic brainstorming the solution to the main issue (reduced twcenter population)? If there is please tell me which one. If not it would be good to open one and check options.
    For the past four years, I have offered to start a group to do just that. I did start a thread in Q&S a few years back called, Where do we go from here (or something like that) that addressed the issue. It is the origin of the Modding Staff idea. Apart from the Modding Staff idea being ignored(at the time), there was a lot of discussion about the front page. Ideas were exchanged, but with an inactive owner, it bears little chance of being implemented. Sadly.
    Last edited by PikeStance; March 17, 2019 at 09:45 PM.

  19. #59
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    I thought my reply was posted, but apparently not. So, my reply will be a bit more brisk, and I apologize if I do not fully convey myself. If not, do ask me to elaborate as needed. New posts came in since that time, and so I have more content to integrate anyways.


    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I have already answered the questions in post #46.
    Post #46 was not your post and none of your posts in that stretch successfully addressed the arguments, especially post #45 (I assume you meant that given the otherwise quite deliberate number).

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The proposal is not meant to be a problem solver by itself. It is a building block. It is a suggestion of something different in the hopes that it would be attractive to post mods here. If it fails to attract mods then there isn't much else the site could do to attract modders here. Modding Staff is also another "great white hops" for site recovery of lost mods/ modders. Not only does the site have to do more for mod-users, but it has demonstrated it can do more for the modding community. The former is useless without the latter. I stated all of this in the first page of this thread.
    I doubt anyone has come into this thread expecting the proposal to be a one shot knockout to the entire issue. However, what you are receiving disagreement on is not that premise, despite you seeming to treat it as such. The issue is if the building block is in fact made of stone or a well concealed stage prop that will shatter in attempting to hold up the grander ideas that have not been properly linked to the proposal. Your post does not address precisely what makes your proposal a relevant block towards the larger problem, what makes the proposal's offerings hold meaning with the investment of time to present the results it does, and why it is the best we can muster when there are much more difficult but necessary issues to address that are at the crux of TWC's dwindling modern appeal. If you do finally reply to this point, refer to the more substantive versions of what I just stated in above posts.

    The rest is agreeable or semantics best avoided, however, I will jab at the following claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The final level is not quantitatively. it is purposely qualitative. The "mastery" level is just that. When someone is a master, it is again easily discernable.
    [irrelevent] . Also stated on page one, this is not knowledge-based, but skill based.
    Your proposal bounces across the field in how it is measured. Many metrics are not knowledge or skill based, they are literally quantity based. Your determinations on some points literally boil down to asking 'did he do research on this'. Quality is not a metric, only quantity until the sudden jump to evaluating quality on the final point - which, sure, I will give you, however it lacks metrics. If lacking consistent/present metrics in a certification scale is not an issue to you, then we can drop this point for good, and other readers may take it as they will.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    I have said it before...Its true that most of modders do not need Award badges to start or continue modding. But there is a large number of them that:
    a) Are in the strart of their modding attempts and needs some aknowlegment as sign that their efforts did not pass un-notticed.
    b) Are in the pursuit of rep points
    c) They dream to have one of the "shiny badges" you all say that mean nothing but you all keep under your Avatar as sign of a kind of superiority. I did not start modding to have the badge of Artifex and that is why i left that group. But allow my humble nottice...you keep saying that badges mean nothing but you continue to use them. The pursuit of those badges is obvius when many modders try hard to find a patron (what is a patron anyway??) to nominate them in a close CAST of friends that public relations play more role than the modding its self. Prove me wrong i dare you.
    a) Does not require a convoluted new structure, merely well minded people paying attention and giving direct helpful feedback
    b) Rep was not even a portion of the OP and rep that would result from exposure using this system could easily be achieved by the above without a new apperatus
    c) They are 'shiny badges' so insignificant in their metrics and meaning that it is silly. By the time someone is capable of achieving mastery in this system, imagining it with proper metrics, they will already be able to take a crack at the shiny artifex badges.

    Your post, starting from point c), attempts to guilt people into supporting you by miscasting the arguments present. We are not arguing about the viability of a generalist badge that rewards a substantial, measurable level of good work. We are challenging the viability of a minute level structure that barely offers anything that a modder cannot present for themselves or have easily surpassed by one of these esteemed gentlemen lending them an ear.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Now the crusial question is this.
    DO WE WISH TWC to continue exist ? If your answer is YES then we must attract new modding blood (i am 49 years old and too close to death), in order to allow TWC continue to offer what it offered so many years.
    First off, begone with the 'too close to death' play on emotional weight, as the issues here are entirely at a practical level. On that level I say you have plenty of years to go if the average lifespan of a first world human being is any indication. But that, like the bracketed comment, is quite besides the point. The crucial question is indeed as you state and has not been questioned. What has been challenged so far is the means to that end. There are indeed ways and it seems evident that there are flaws at the heart of this way that do not need to become reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    You can keep your shiny badges but low down your eyes to young kids that are in their beginings and give them soe attention EVEN if that attention will be a worthless to real life badge that it wont be so shiny like yours.
    You do your very best to guilt people into following you despite your point on this falling apart mere sentences before. You appeal to emotion when that is not the point. The point is that, while well meant and presented in a way that at least encouraged response, there are substantial questions on the premise that have not been addressed.

    Though you may touch lightly on the strings of those who hold the badges, I stand in clear opposition with no recognition and badges at all, nor desire to have it. I am evidence that your argument is not only superficial, but narrow and takes no account of the opposition present.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    So ... today we have modders that took everything valuebale from TWC and returned NOTHING to it posting their mods (that they did not create them with their knowlege of their own by 100%) elsewere and you treat them a modding Gods!
    Today we have silly hyperbole that miscasts the modders who earned their accolades precisely because they contributed to the community, because they have produced content to enjoy, in some cases, because their works are a substantial well of reference and even freely granted, well articulated walls of information for other modders to draw upon. I would expect a more logical argument that actually addresses the issues people have from someone of your accolades, even if they do not include a small picture below the avatar.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    But TWC needs to survinve so take a look to small badges and certification issues UNDER THIS PROSPECTIVE if you love the site that feed your egos by giving you so many shiny badges and you wish it to continue exist.
    Take a look at small badges and certification issues under the perspective of arguments that challenge the substance of the given proposal. Take a look at the survival of the site, something you called the critical question, from the lense of relevance. Answer what this proposal truly does beyond extremely superficial ego stroking of both the vast systems that have drawn people away by their scale as it is and of modders easily satisfied by receiving an unpolished 'you did what you did' from a formal committee that sees fit to address the problem with bureaucracy and not an informal, but far more relevant effort to help the modders at an individual level.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, your attempt to frame others in this thread as opposing on basis of their little man suppressing egos is absolutely disgusting and serves as a detriment to the very thing you so passionately speak for. I am one of the little men. What am I? A shill? A kiss up to the static crew that are cozy in their positions of influence and rank on the site? I can hear a few members laughing at the very thought already.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    My language may seam sharp and few may find it offendive but I am a follower of Socrates' philosophy and I learned to speak the truth without and candy to make it sweet to your ears.
    The only substantive issue here is that your truth ignores logic in favor of unbridled emotion and that the post as a whole requires a good proofreader. You do indeed interject plenty of candy to make it 'sweet', but it is merely frosting on a piece of charcoal.



    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    What does a university degree have anything to do with historical research on a game? The university, I assume, granted them a degree for their work. I have a degree in history and yet I would not expect to 'certified" as if I did any research. It would be silly of me to think otherwise.

    I do not understand the quote of beginners. I use three terms; Basic/ Novice or Apprentice. Anyway, it is related to actual work on a game and not your real life personal accomplishments.
    No.

    An EB2 modder in his example scenario will have dedicated his entire time to researching content for EB2. This research may have been done in relation to other modders, and yet the research done may have been more work than several very, very small mods. Under your structure such a researcher will only qualify for level 1, beginner, hence him mentioning beginners. The modder in question had a university degree and used the skills gained from that to provide superior research for a mod that has objectively stronger impact than a sampling of less popular mods in the same listing down the Kingdoms mod list.

    Your judgement of his rank would skip between the very first and the very last level, using very different metrics of judgement, both at the heart to what each of the ranks entail on your proposal. He is a beginner by your listing, but his work is more tireless and extensive than many modders of recent total war games have spent across their modding careers. Perhaps, though making substantial effort and being of an intermediate skill that would certify people in a consistent system at the middle, he is still only judged as a beginner or as a master.

    Such disparity is core to why your proposal is flawed, for bouncing between measurements as it sees fit and being utterly meaningless the moment someone takes a serious look at how the conclusions were given. They were whimsical and could have gone any which way. That is what he means, though if I am projecting his arguments and have gone on the wrong tangent, I apologize.
    Last edited by Katsumoto; March 18, 2019 at 10:14 AM. Reason: not needed and continuity
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    Spoiler for wait what dragons?



  20. #60
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: [Decision] Certification Program

    Let's keep it civil, folks.
    "I pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof."
    - John Adams, on the White House, in a letter to Abigail Adams (2 November 1800)

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