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Thread: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

  1. #21
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    As this thread has had no posts in over 28 days, it can be archived, but given it is a discussion thread, what say you on keeping it open versus archiving it Commissar?

  2. #22

    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    I could try a post if we need new life in here.

  3. #23
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    As this thread has had no posts in over 28 days, it can be archived, but given it is a discussion thread, what say you on keeping it open versus archiving it Commissar?
    It doesn't seem like anyones interested, and Hex won't let the Curia do anything so we may as well just scrap the Curia. Or if thats too radical, just close the thread.




  4. #24
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    I'm wondering what the curia has done for the site nowadays?
    Don't blame the the Hex for the curia's fault
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  5. #25

    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    I guess there's not much will to make this a subject. I'd still say the question is relevant.

  6. #26
    Flinn's Avatar ehhhhh.. You don't say???
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    I'd still say the question is relevant.
    Yes, but who should answer that question?

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  7. #27
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    Stating the obvious here and a few others have told (part of) this before, including myself, but it still might do some good:

    The Curia is a rather small group of citizens that are (somewhat) active in a place on the forum that is called the Curia. No more and no less. Recently it seems even fewer people post there. Perhaps because of the recent changes, or just a continuation of a trend that has been going on for quite some time now. Well, we could say that for the whole site I guess, although it is certainly promising to see some serious activity going on lately, with GED taking a very active role once again.

    What it tells me about the Curia is that most members are quite happy and probably feeling honoured to be made a citizen and/or receive another award the Curia can give them. Most of them though don't seem to care for participating in that same Curia. That's okay, they often are already contributing quite a bit to the site in all sorts of roles like modding, or being active in a staff role. I really don't see the plus of having two bodies (staff and Curia) fishing in the same pond.

    What I do think is that the award part of the Curia is perhaps a bit of an underestimated activity. Citizenship is a fairly unique feature and I bet many of our members are striving to get it. The other awards are maybe a bit less unique, but still most people are quite happy to receive them. They might be pixels on a screen, but there is also the genuine recognition given by a community that values contributions to the site. And as we expect some serious contributions from someone before we reward them for it, it really does mean something.

    Therefore I would say having the Curia concentrating on the awards part and doing away with most other stuff is the way to go. If you need a group of people that can decide on giving an award, then those that have earned one already are a good choice IMO. It would be nice if more citizens would participate in the voting though. That could possibly be improved with a bit of advertising here and there, like some announcements about upcoming votes.

    The only other thing left to discuss is how we handle the higher standards. Should we keep and enforce them, or do away with them altogether?

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  8. #28

    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    Yes, but who should answer that question?
    Anyone. Veteraan. You. God forbid, me.

  9. #29
    Flinn's Avatar ehhhhh.. You don't say???
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    I answered, but it seems that my answer wasn't of the like of the OP

    Now let's be honest, there was a similar thread like this one few months ago and it ended up in nothing, just like this one will do and why? Because what the Curia actually is, is evident to everybody who's honest enough to recognize it (see Vet's post above, it's a perfect summary), and what the Curia can become depends on the people participating in it, given the fact that is the Hex that administrates the site.

    I'm confident that Hader's proposal and re-organization of the Curia will turn it into a more efficient body, now we only need more people to be actively involved (in the Curial offices but also just for the daily activity)
    Last edited by Flinn; April 30, 2019 at 03:47 AM.

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  10. #30
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    I guess there's not much will to make this a subject. I'd still say the question is relevant.
    The Curia could be more active when it comes to what areas that needs more attention from the administration e.g make over of the frontpage by suggesting a draft or two, how to make TWC more attractive to modders etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    The only other thing left to discuss is how we handle the higher standards. Should we keep and enforce them, or do away with them altogether?
    That would require a revision of The Constitution I think, at least one or two amendment(s).

    Here is another discussion.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    this is another interesting discussion about what the Curia can and cannot do, I think

    I've been reading some of those threads from 2014 and I participated in basically every single similar post since I became a citizen, and frankly speaking I'm bugged to see that the same arguments are repeated over and over. I have to agree with those who say that the Curia cannot change itself sensibly, because of it's own nature, only an imposition from Hex could drastically change it, but unless someone with full power will do that (GED, basically) we the Hex will never do anything similar because it will destroy the very meaning of the Curia (and GED didn't do anything similar so far, so I'm not expecting him to do that in any case, unless forced from an actual death of the Curia).

    It's not a case that a dedicated staffer and Hexer like Hader decided to pick up the ball that everybody was dropping in order to try to do something really new for the Curia; we can argue about every single point of his amendment, but if not for his dedication and insistence we would have never moved forward.. is there a lot still to do? Quite sure! Anything we would change on that? Certainly! Something we can make better? No doubt! However, what is important about Hader's proposal is not just the importance of the changes (the preafectus thing for instance is something I'm loving, for the first time I'm seeing a real moderation practice in the Curia), but the idea that an overhaul of the Curia is needed.
    I could understand that someone was opposing his amendment because of one or more controversial point, or because of opposing views, none the less 80% of the voters supported it (numbers weren't stellar, 24 voters in total; isn't this small number an indication of how little love the Curia receives nowadays???).. the sentiment I've seen expressed by many was "ok I don't mind about this or that minor change or even a big one, as long as we change because we all need fresh air in the Curia". There are some regulars of the Curia, who served it with honor and that even got a medal because of this, that have been openly criticizing its structure (and I would trust them more than anyone who only saw it from an external perspective)..

    The real drama here? it's about years (probably 10 or even more) that the Curia needed a serious overhaul; it survived even if deceasing because up to 2012 site activity was increasing no matter what we would do (see, I joined end of 2012, you know..) and because it's part related to awarding still functions very well, but other than this it has been just a fight between those who wanted to modernize it and those who pretended to make it again an administration body

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustus Lucifer
    One key curial reform that needs to happen if we plan to keep it is getting rid of The Constitution as an authoritative document. It was crafted before the site became professionalized, and it served us well through the turbulence preceding Ian's acquisition, but all it's done since then is stifle progress. It doesn't dictate what happens on the site except for those who lack the power to override it, and then it only dictates the hoops one must jump through to get things done. Fundamentally rethinking what sort of document a 'Curia' needs to govern it at this stage of the site seems tantamount to progress on that front. I feel that our best avenue in this regard is to create an advisory document that defines some guidelines and spells out how things currently work, which can be modified by Hex as necessary to reflect the actuality, and can be interpreted much more broadly by any elected officials. How much hot air has been wasted trying to make a document tell us to do what we already are inclined to do?

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  12. #32

    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    Then perhaps we should hold a discussion as to what specifically the curia not only represents now, but what it should represent and do at its peak and what it can do given people interested in filling extra points. Defined scope, defined limits, and its ultimate purpose, not the existential crisis. The "no more no less" attitude on being merely an awarded title, a conversation chamber and an awards committee, unless officiated, I don't think is a proper answer to this sort of conversation.

  13. #33
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    The Curial Changes subforum has a lot of interesting threads to read and some of them seems to be forgotten.
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    @Flinn and Leonardo:

    Your links are for Non-Citizens not visible.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; May 13, 2019 at 12:38 PM.

  15. #35
    Flinn's Avatar ehhhhh.. You don't say???
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Then perhaps we should hold a discussion as to what specifically the curia not only represents now, but what it should represent and do at its peak and what it can do given people interested in filling extra points. Defined scope, defined limits, and its ultimate purpose, not the existential crisis. The "no more no less" attitude on being merely an awarded title, a conversation chamber and an awards committee, unless officiated, I don't think is a proper answer to this sort of conversation.
    As for me (and the rest of the Hex I deem) what the Curia is, is pretty clear. If you want it officiated, feel free to start discussing it from within the Curia.. good luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodia_Metelli View Post
    @Flinn and Leonardo:

    Your links are for Non-Citizens not visible.
    I'm abroad now but I will see next week if I can copy or move those threads so that everybody can see them

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  16. #36
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    Thanks in advance.

  17. #37
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    I am not sure if it is meant to or not, but the Symposium obviously is not viewable if not a citizen.

    Nothing I found in past amendments from forever ago to now made it seem it was ever intentional that it be hidden to citizens, or vice versa.

    Considering it houses TWC history content, something that I can't imagine should have a reason to be citizen only as far as viewing goes, I think it perhaps should be made public then of course. Unless looking at forum permissions hints at anything that was an actual mistake, it should probably be discussed as a decision to make it visible to all.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    I am little surprise this is still being discussed.

    The Curia doesn't "do" anything. Citizenship was meant to encourage "good posting" and it was never meant to be exclusive. You do not need several mods, or post fervently in the mudpit or be a great orator for citizenship. The very first citizens, known as "original citizens" were approved en mass and they only had a mere 75 total posts. The only difference between citizens and those without the distinction is the Curia bit. The caveat was that citizens "may" make suggestions to for the improvement of the site. The Symposium was created to give citizens a medium to debate among themselves. This was presumably purposed to give a higher level of discussion than what could be found in the mudpit.

    I should initiate in the beginning a committee made up of various "administrators" made a simple vote on those nominated. Based on the context of a very small sample size of early "applications" nominations came within he committee and from current citizens. It was sometime later that "citizens" could "patronized." This was only the case after a huge amount of posts were made and by approval. Which is ironic given the standards were lower, but definitely more appropriate. I should note, throughout the history of the site there have been several attempts to introduced multi level system. In any event, the admin and the Curia are two part of the whole, since citizenship is a means for promoting activity and administration has an vested interest in promoting it. It isn't a question who failed who.

    Anyway, "Curial" awards came about slowly and gradually. It was never the purpose of the Curia except through the concept of "improvement" to the site. In this case encouraging continued activity.

    As long as "citizenship" is viewed as an "exclusive group rather than a group that is inclusive, then the system does not work. Unfortunately, most efforts have been made the blur a line that developed rather than thinning the line to be inviting for active members with a history of good posting and contribution. Citizenship is a unique concept that attracted many members t participate. The system is broken and so TWC is nothing special; it is just another site.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I am little surprise this is still being discussed.

    The Curia doesn't "do" anything. Citizenship was meant to encourage "good posting" and it was never meant to be exclusive. You do not need several mods, or post fervently in the mudpit or be a great orator for citizenship. The very first citizens, known as "original citizens" were approved en mass and they only had a mere 75 total posts. The only difference between citizens and those without the distinction is the Curia bit. The caveat was that citizens "may" make suggestions to for the improvement of the site. The Symposium was created to give citizens a medium to debate among themselves. This was presumably purposed to give a higher level of discussion than what could be found in the mudpit.

    I should initiate in the beginning a committee made up of various "administrators" made a simple vote on those nominated. Based on the context of a very small sample size of early "applications" nominations came within he committee and from current citizens. It was sometime later that "citizens" could "patronized." This was only the case after a huge amount of posts were made and by approval. Which is ironic given the standards were lower, but definitely more appropriate. I should note, throughout the history of the site there have been several attempts to introduced multi level system. In any event, the admin and the Curia are two part of the whole, since citizenship is a means for promoting activity and administration has an vested interest in promoting it. It isn't a question who failed who.

    Anyway, "Curial" awards came about slowly and gradually. It was never the purpose of the Curia except through the concept of "improvement" to the site. In this case encouraging continued activity.

    As long as "citizenship" is viewed as an "exclusive group rather than a group that is inclusive, then the system does not work. Unfortunately, most efforts have been made the blur a line that developed rather than thinning the line to be inviting for active members with a history of good posting and contribution. Citizenship is a unique concept that attracted many members t participate. The system is broken and so TWC is nothing special; it is just another site.
    If the curia does not do anything, then this forum does not exist, and awards are nothing. If both are applicable as indeed being something, then there is indeed mechanical purposes to this section, even if it is not the only outlet for those two things.

    Without the aspect and the idea that the Curia could be an organized system to positively influence the rest of the site, I would not even have so much as the doubts that I have now, which already prevent me from grasping what, in your system, is a near instant citizenship status for me. I'm only interested in functions that do, and give people the means to do more thanks to their position. This is not in the sense of greater power or influence, but rather the idea that since you've gotten this far, you have the reach to say what might help TWC and what you among fellow members may accomplish as the group that's designated as putting in above average effort. That you're in a network of doers who may in part or in full be obliged to help form initiatives. These are things the curia can do, and ultimately has done, and that you've proposed the Curia be able to do (such as the certification program drawing from curially assembled ranks).

    As you cannot stress enough the integral role of citizenship, I cannot stress enough that correlation is not causation, and that Citizenship is not nor has ever been the aspect that's driven me and presumably many others to be interested in the site. There is nothing particularly interesting about a blingy subforum for a role that is supposed to do barely anything. It's what the site does in general that makes it interesting and sets it apart as a site, and those are the fields in high need (modding, content, etc).

  20. #40
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    Default Re: [Discussion] What can the Curia do for Total War Center?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    If the curia does not do anything, then this forum does not exist, and awards are nothing. If both are applicable as indeed being something, then there is indeed mechanical purposes to this section, even if it is not the only outlet for those two things.

    Without the aspect and the idea that the Curia could be an organized system to positively influence the rest of the site, I would not even have so much as the doubts that I have now, which already prevent me from grasping what, in your system, is a near instant citizenship status for me. I'm only interested in functions that do, and give people the means to do more thanks to their position. This is not in the sense of greater power or influence, but rather the idea that since you've gotten this far, you have the reach to say what might help TWC and what you among fellow members may accomplish as the group that's designated as putting in above average effort. That you're in a network of doers who may in part or in full be obliged to help form initiatives. These are things the curia can do, and ultimately has done, and that you've proposed the Curia be able to do (such as the certification program drawing from curially assembled ranks).

    As you cannot stress enough the integral role of citizenship, I cannot stress enough that correlation is not causation, and that Citizenship is not nor has ever been the aspect that's driven me and presumably many others to be interested in the site. There is nothing particularly interesting about a blingy subforum for a role that is supposed to do barely anything. It's what the site does in general that makes it interesting and sets it apart as a site, and those are the fields in high need (modding, content, etc).
    You are not the first, nor i am sure you ill be the last to argued this. The site was at its height when citizens applications was at its most.

    To emphasize my previous point, the Curia is not mandated to do anything. By consequence, those who become citizens may well continue to engage the site and make suggestions for improvements. however, this is not obligatory nor expected. As a citizen you are expected to continue doing what you were doing which led you to becoming a citizen. The act of becoming a citizen is meant to be am encouragement. The large awards were created as a continuation of that purpose. The "awards" are nothing more than "citizen +" In fact, initially, it was a badge as well. It was later when they wanted to streamline the number of badges and the large awards that it became to be displayed as "awards" and not as a rank.

    Anyway, the entire system as broken down. It isn't going to magically restart. I mentioned several years ago that may have already surpassed the proverbial "tipping point." What the site is now is what it will remain though I expect a continued drop in activity. Within the next 36 months I would not be surprise if staff is not half what it is now. I have already shared what this site could do to reverse the direction. It is up to others to decide what they want. if I am in error in the past, it is assuming this is what people want. No one s financially invested, so there is little to know reasons to work for a more popular site when there are so many other mediums.
    Last edited by PikeStance; May 28, 2019 at 09:31 PM.
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