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Thread: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

  1. #61
    Genava's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    Virtually every scientist involved with the IPCC report is receiving money from the government in one form or another. There are plenty of scientists who are not on board with this globalist scheme.,, over 31,000 at last count:

    http://www.petitionproject.org/
    Hear the point of view of a skeptic, funded by the Koch Brothers and supported by Anthony Watts:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTk8Dhr15Kw
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
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  2. #62

    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Tell me, WHY you think this field is politicized... Who stands to gain and fund the idea that climate change is real? It is a costly and painful undertaking many people would rather ignore. Who the hell would politicize it if it waws not a real concern? It doesnt help politicians, corporations and even poorest of the people who'd rather consume stuff cheaply...

    The ONLY groups that stand to gain from politicizing this issue are big corporations, especially certain sectors that have massive lobbying power. And their interest lies in saying that climate change is not caused by them. And yet you think that this issue is politicized....by whom? The "left" ?

    It is an existential threat that can weak havoc and vast majority of the scientific field is rather sure of man-made impact. They also have nothing to gain from faking it...and there certainly haven't been billions of dollars of money pouring into making fake research for centuries to create the climate movement....
    I'll be fair and say that both the left and right do their thing on capitalizing on sceptics and enthusiasts for votes. This is a technical issue, that is too moralized/emotionalized.
    So bi-partisanism and sectarianism is more to blaming, rather than blaming "the left".

    I understand it's exciting to be part of a movement to save the earth/nature/etc, however this isn't the only threat at extinction level that we have as a species.
    That said, I have nothing against both the enthusiasts and sceptics, it's ok they do their thing, but the optimal solution would be to spend the energies into reading/learning how to solve the perceived problem, rather than struggle for moral high ground.

    In other words, to stay informed and updated as first directive. The world climate is a complex thing where even the GHG are only part of an equation with plenty of variables. It could even happen that 1) Global Warming happens but not related to GHG, rather being an exotic exogenous factor, a "black swan" if you will, 2) Global Warming does not happen despite the GHG pushing in that direction, albeit those are the less probable scenarios.

    Then less defined is "how much" of Global Warming you risk getting. 2ºC? 3ºC? 4ºC? 6ºC?

    Which average temperature is the "point of no return"? This isn't clarified (on the emotional/rethorical appeals). It's a quantifiable issue, and all those 4 hipothesis technically count as "global warming" yet the effects/consequences could be amazingly different.
    Last edited by fkizz; March 17, 2019 at 01:20 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    I'll be fair and say that both the left and right do their thing on capitalizing on sceptics and enthusiasts for votes. This is a technical issue, that is too moralized/emotionalized.
    So bi-partisanism and sectarianism is more to blaming "the left.

    I understand it's exciting to be part of a movement to save the earth/nature/etc, however this isn't the only threat at extinction level that we have as a species.
    That said, I have nothing against both the enthusiasts and sceptics, it's ok they do their thing, but the optimal solution would be to spend the energies into reading/learning how to solve the perceived problem, rather than struggle for moral high ground.
    Seriously mate, I don't get what your point is. I am not arguing for a moral high ground or anything. This is a complex technical and socio-political problem that affects all our daily lives. Where the hell do you get the idea that this is to be "part of something great"...I am more concerned about food prices and security and the disposable income I will have for leisure. Or the air conditioner electricity bill that I'll have to pay.

    You seem to keep trying to enforce a "higher than thou" attitude here to show the excited leftie the true grim reality of the world or something? How will the world spend energy on improving techniques without there being a case for it? There is a reason many new regulations come in and innovations steer towards less carbon emission. That is a result of political pressure. No company on its own will cut down its profit margins to save the world on its own.
    This is as technical as it gets. It is not a dreamy hippie's struggle.

    And the technical reality is that many corporations that stand to lose from both these technological changes(e.g solar power) or changes in consumer behaivour( electric car buying) are sending in millions of dollars to slow down the case. PragerU for instance is a ridiculous example of how they try to change the view of the public by turning this into a partisan political issue of the left, by hoarding all sorts of political problems into one basket along with the climate change issue to de-legitimize it.

    My political views have changed throughout my life. But my stance on climate change never did. It is a non-partisan issue, that is being presented by certain interest groups as a partisan issue to de-legitimize it. And what better way to blame it all on dreamy, stupid leftist millenials....
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  4. #64

    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    How will the world spend energy on improving techniques without there being a case for it? There is a reason many new regulations come in and innovations steer towards less carbon emission. That is a result of political pressure. No company on its own will cut down its profit margins to save the world on its own.
    This is as technical as it gets. It is not a dreamy hippie's struggle.
    This is a a good point in favour of action for climate change (as well as an objective victory in favour of environmentalists). The fact that carbon intensive countries have to contribute extra to the public treasury does create medium term incentives for investment in renewables and long term for R&D in cutting costs in renewable energies. This are facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    And the technical reality is that many corporations that stand to lose from both these technological changes(e.g solar power) or changes in consumer behaivour( electric car buying) are sending in millions of dollars to slow down the case. PragerU for instance is a ridiculous example of how they try to change the view of the public by turning this into a partisan political issue of the left, by hoarding all sorts of political problems into one basket along with the climate change issue to de-legitimize it.
    Another good point.
    Also PragerU is a mix of political propaganda and facts, though it tends to go for propaganda when it comes to lobby-intensive issues. On less lobby intensive issues they push for some facts, but obviously I don't share the PragerU opinion on this matter.
    Last edited by fkizz; March 17, 2019 at 01:35 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  5. #65

    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    And the technical reality is that many corporations that stand to lose from both these technological changes(e.g solar power) or changes in consumer behaivour( electric car buying) are sending in millions of dollars to slow down the case. PragerU for instance is a ridiculous example of how they try to change the view of the public by turning this into a partisan political issue of the left, by hoarding all sorts of political problems into one basket along with the climate change issue to de-legitimize it.
    The technical reality is that corporations stand to lose from every technological change in history. If you go back and look, whomever does the research, the funding tends to come from the government. And if the research was baselined by the government and literally done by government employees, the result tends to be just handed to the people for society to take advantage of.

    Really, people worrying about the price of something like this is...historically strange. To say the least.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  6. #66
    B. W.'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Hear the point of view of a skeptic, funded by the Koch Brothers and supported by Anthony Watts:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTk8Dhr15Kw
    OMG! A professor from Berkeley conducts a study funded by the globalist Koch brothers and concludes that the IPCC report is spot on. What a surprise!

    Astonishingly, he makes a point of saying that solar variability has no effect on the earth's climate! Incredible! His study, just like the IPCC study, did not include the variable of cosmic dusting in the upper atmosphere.

    It's another instance of picking your data to arrive at the conclusion you want. Thanks for wasting my time.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Astonishingly, he makes a point of saying that solar variability has no effect on the earth's climate! Incredible!
    Astonishingly, you have real trouble to understand simple statements. This is like everything passing through your ears get twisted by an ideological filter. He said that the solar variability is not contributing to the recent global warming. Not that it has no effect on the climate. And the reason for this is simple:
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  8. #68
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Let's try to keep the posts impersonal in order to avoid the discussion degenerating to a flamewar, according to the rules of the mudpit.
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Astonishingly, you have real trouble to understand simple statements. This is like everything passing through your ears get twisted by an ideological filter. He said that the solar variability is not contributing to the recent global warming. Not that it has no effect on the climate. And the reason for this is simple:
    That chart has no source info in it, but it looks like the IPCC chart that was based on corrupted data.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    That chart has no source info in it, but it looks like the IPCC chart that was based on corrupted data.
    Nope. Temperature from NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies and TSI from the Physikalisch-Meteorologisches Observatorium Davos/World Radiation Center (PMOD/WRC) plus the reconstruction from Krivova.
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
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  11. #71
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Nope. Temperature from NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies and TSI from the Physikalisch-Meteorologisches Observatorium Davos/World Radiation Center (PMOD/WRC) plus the reconstruction from Krivova.
    All that means is that I was right when I said virtually every scientist who supports AGW is funded in one way or another by government money. BTW, that report was from 2010.

    The last time the AGW people engaged in a debate with scientists apposed to the theory was in 2007 and they lost big time. That's the reason they won't publicly debate the issue.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    All that means is that I was right when I said virtually every scientist who supports AGW is funded in one way or another by government money. BTW, that report was from 2010.
    In your mind, being funded by national governments is a proof that the climate consensus is a hoax/scam. However, most of the research in fundamental physics, like particle experiments at the CERN for example, is funded by governments. All the development of space science, satellite, spatial exploration etc. was mainly made and funded by governments as well. Are they scam science? Obviously not.

    Moreover, the consensus is also grounded in other sciences. Most of the geologists, most of the chemists, most of the physicists support the consensus. In fact the consensus was made thanks to physicist, chemists and geologists, because the cause of the global warming is known by the work of scientists in these fields:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tyndall
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_Arrhenius
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Plass
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Smith_Broecker

    This is way most of the national academies support the consensus:
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/292/5520/1261
    http://nationalacademies.org/onpi/06072005.pdf

    and why most of the American scientific institutions support it as well:
    https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

    Even geologists, who focus in long term climate and environmental change, who work with oil and mining companies, support the consensus:
    https://www.geosociety.org/gsa/posit...osition10.aspx

    that was based on corrupted data.
    The problem with your opinion is that different institutions in different countries, calculating with a different method, have the same trend. For example, the US NOAA and the UK MetOffice have a very similar global temperature mean.
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
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  13. #73
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    In your mind, being funded by national governments is a proof that the climate consensus is a hoax/scam. However, most of the research in fundamental physics, like particle experiments at the CERN for example, is funded by governments. All the development of space science, satellite, spatial exploration etc. was mainly made and funded by governments as well. Are they scam science? Obviously not.

    Moreover, the consensus is also grounded in other sciences. Most of the geologists, most of the chemists, most of the physicists support the consensus. In fact the consensus was made thanks to physicist, chemists and geologists, because the cause of the global warming is known by the work of scientists in these fields:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tyndall
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_Arrhenius
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Plass
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Smith_Broecker

    This is way most of the national academies support the consensus:
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/292/5520/1261
    http://nationalacademies.org/onpi/06072005.pdf

    and why most of the American scientific institutions support it as well:
    https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

    Even geologists, who focus in long term climate and environmental change, who work with oil and mining companies, support the consensus:
    https://www.geosociety.org/gsa/posit...osition10.aspx



    The problem with your opinion is that different institutions in different countries, calculating with a different method, have the same trend. For example, the US NOAA and the UK MetOffice have a very similar global temperature mean.
    You keep proving my point over and over again. National Academies, Geosociety, Nasa...where do you think their money comes from? Do you have any idea how many geologists are employed by different government agencies?

    Again, none of them are factoring cosmic dusting into their equations and the consensus you keep referring to amounts to a little over 2,000 scientists and they are all on the money wagon. As I pointed out earlier, over 31,000 scientists disagree with their conclusion.

    And don't get me started on Hansen and NASA. I worked at a space center for 30 years and retired. I know more about that than you do.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    I'm not sure you're aware just how much research you like that you're corrupting with these lines BW.

    "Government does it, therefore bad" is not a good response. You really should come up with a response that implies you know what you're talking about so you don't accidentally throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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  15. #75
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    You keep proving my point over and over again. National Academies, Geosociety, Nasa...where do you think their money comes from? Do you have any idea how many geologists are employed by different government agencies?
    The old narrative Private vs Government and Government = Bad/Corrupted is an ideological interpretation that you are applying in a Manichean way. You keep ignoring my point and using anything to reject the conclusions that doesn't suit your view. I gave you the example of Richard Muller and you put on him the label "globalist" to reject his demonstration. Everything is political and must be interpreted according to political standard in your mind.

    Again, none of them are factoring cosmic dusting into their equations
    Cosmic dust cannot explain the evidences in the actual global warming:
    - Stratospheric and mesospheric cooling while tropospheric warming
    - Nights warming proportionally faster than days
    - Increasing greenhouse effect observed

    An increase of the greenhouse effect is observed over time, see:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...m_1973_to_2008
    https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley....9/2003GL018765

    Moreover, the direct effect from CO2 is observed:
    http://asl.umbc.edu/pub/chepplew/jou...eldman_CO2.pdf
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  16. #76
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    This guy wont be satisfied.

    Just tell him global warming is a leftist millenial marxist jewish controlled government hoax to control minds and destroy white civilization, and corrupt elite are getting rich from circulating this lie to by destroying jobs to depopulate america or something...



    Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  17. #77
    B. W.'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    I'm not sure you're aware just how much research you like that you're corrupting with these lines BW.

    "Government does it, therefore bad" is not a good response. You really should come up with a response that implies you know what you're talking about so you don't accidentally throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    Who is throwing out the baby with the bath water? Would you believe a study funded by big tobacco that says smoking isn't bad for you? Tens of billions in grant money have been given out to further globalist goals in the name of AGW.

    In case you unaware Ill fill you in on how these things go: A grant is proposed and submissions are put forward by colleges and institutions to do the study requested. After review, the grant is given and surprise, surprise, the expected result is the study's finding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    The old narrative Private vs Government and Government = Bad/Corrupted is an ideological interpretation that you are applying in a Manichean way. You keep ignoring my point and using anything to reject the conclusions that doesn't suit your view. I gave you the example of Richard Muller and you put on him the label "globalist" to reject his demonstration. Everything is political and must be interpreted according to political standard in your mind.



    Cosmic dust cannot explain the evidences in the actual global warming:
    - Stratospheric and mesospheric cooling while tropospheric warming
    - Nights warming proportionally faster than days
    - Increasing greenhouse effect observed

    An increase of the greenhouse effect is observed over time, see:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...m_1973_to_2008
    https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley....9/2003GL018765

    Moreover, the direct effect from CO2 is observed:
    http://asl.umbc.edu/pub/chepplew/jou...eldman_CO2.pdf
    You're posting articles that were, in some cases, published over ten years ago (I can remember reading some of them). Most, if not all, were produced using data that was found to be inaccurate or corrupted. You're obviously unaware of the e-mail scandal of a few years back where the leading characters in producing these reports were found to have conspired to manipulate the data in order to produce the results they were looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    This guy wont be satisfied.

    Just tell him global warming is a leftist millenial marxist jewish controlled government hoax to control minds and destroy white civilization, and corrupt elite are getting rich from circulating this lie to by destroying jobs to depopulate america or something...



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    Typical leftist comment. I suggest you watch the video linked in post 11. It is the very latest on AGW.

  18. #78
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    What part of it is typical leftist comment? You are completely thrashing all sorts of scientific material on the basis of your opinions and ignoring the scientific content of the debate. It is not my expertise, but I can see that you keep ignoring the points being made in content and your opposition to all of them is "they are paid shills"....

    This is not a rational debate, it is a religious preaching. I know when I see it. Trust me. I live in Turkey.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    What part of it is typical leftist comment? You are completely thrashing all sorts of scientific material on the basis of your opinions and ignoring the scientific content of the debate. It is not my expertise, but I can see that you keep ignoring the points being made in content and your opposition to all of them is "they are paid shills"....

    This is not a rational debate, it is a religious preaching. I know when I see it. Trust me. I live in Turkey.
    Again, your words:

    Just tell him global warming is a leftist millenial marxist jewish controlled government hoax to control minds and destroy white civilization, and corrupt elite are getting rich from circulating this lie to by destroying jobs to depopulate america or something...

  20. #80
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Yeah. It is a sarcastic comment because you keep denying all the content based on your beliefs/opinions around vast majority scientific community being paid crooks who are manipulating public opinion.
    Which leads me to believe that this is your average way of thinking. I have had a lot of time to observe the mind of conspiracists all over the internet throughout the years.

    Its not that I dispute your claims. Its that, you are not rationally debating. I'd love to have read a debate full of rich content. And yet, the other guy keeps bringing articles from various scientific communities while summarizing them, while you keep blabbering that they are paid shills manipulating the world and that there are some people who dispute these claims....
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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