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Thread: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

  1. #1

    Default [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    With the moving of the Prothalomos out of the Curia, it created some oddities.

    • Ostraka should be a Curia affair since this is the removal of rank.
    • The Vote of No confidence also is a Curia affair since it is the Curia that has elected the official.
    • I would also include both medium and large awards since these are things given by the Curia.


    Section II - The Curia
    Article I. The Curia Forum The Curia is a place for all Citizens of the site to discuss and propose changes to the site and this document as well as for holding elections. It consists of the following sections:

    • CVRIA - For non-binding legislative discussion.1
    • Symposium - For general discussion, Citizen debates, and the preservation of Curia and TWC history.17
    • Quaestiones Perpetuae – For Citizenship applications, awards, and Ostraka.
    • Prothalamos - For proposing formal resolutions of the Citizenry.2
    • Curia Vote - For all votes on resolutions and elections.
    • The Politia – For the Triumvirate's dealings.







    Violations of Forum Rules and of the Terms of Service in this forum are considered to be doubly serious.



    Article III. Resolutions Any Citizen can propose a resolution for discussion by posting a thread in the Prothalamos.7


    Resolutions can be Amendments, making changes to this document8; Decisions, suggesting changes to the site; Nominations, proposing a member for a Curial award; Ostraka9; or Votes of No Confidence (VoNC) against Curial Officers or Staff Members. A VoNC may only be initiated for neglect of duty or abuse of authority10 and, if successful against a Curial Officer, results in their immediate removal from office.11


    All resolutions are voted on at the proposer's request5, 12 and pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non-abstaining votes in favor.13 All Amendments14 and Decisions15 are considered to have immediate effect and no retroactive effect unless specifically stated otherwise. The Administration may veto any resolution.


    After a successful vote the Consul enacts the resolution, or requests the administration to enact it or to give an official reason for not doing so.16



    Article IV Curial Action Any Citizen can propose a Curial Action for discussion by posting a thread in the Quastiones Perpetuae or the Curia Main.7


    Curial Action can be Nominations, proposing a member for a Curial award; Ostraka9; or Votes of No Confidence (VoNC) against Curial Officers or Staff Members. A VoNC may only be initiated for neglect of duty or abuse of authority10 and, if successful against a Curial Officer, results in their immediate removal from office.11

    All Curial Action are voted on at the proposer's request5, 12 and pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non-abstaining votes in favor.13 The Administration may veto any Curial Action.


    After a successful vote the Consul enacts the Curial Action, or requests the administration to enact it or to give an official reason for not doing so. 16


    Footnote
    After an election, curial action or resolution has been voted on all its threads are archived appropriately by the Consul.
    Last edited by PikeStance; March 05, 2019 at 08:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Opposed.
    This is just to move the curia back to its previous state somehow. If this passes, the Prot would loose its 'interest' to be opened to all members.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  3. #3

    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Opposed.
    This is just to move the curia back to its previous state somehow. If this passes, the Prot would loose its 'interest' to be opened to all members.

    How would the removal of the ostraka, nominee for awards and VonC would the Prothalomos lose its interest? The point was to open the Prothalomos to encourage new ideas from other members and promote citizenship int the process.

    From order 66
    ... there should theoretically be little issue with this sort of melding of minds and any potential influx of new ideas, discussion, etc. Citizens will still be the only ones allowed to vote, and hopefully be allowed a clearer and more direct view of other members views on certain proposals, decisions, and anything else brought up.
    This proposal only put citizen actions within citizens' remit... Ostaka is the revocation of citizenship. There is no reason why input from others would have bearing on that. VonC is similarly member elected by citizens. Only citizens could remove Curia Officer. Large wards are an extension of the Curia's function. None of these inhibits the influx of "new ideas" or discussion. Moreover, amendments remain in the Prothalomos, because unlike some, I believe the Constitution to be a sitewide document.

    The Curia has spoken. I am willing to let it sink and swim on its own merit or lack there.

  4. #4
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Opposed.
    This is just to move the curia back to its previous state somehow. If this passes, the Prot would loose its 'interest' to be opened to all members.
    I agree, it makes the prothalamos unattractive for the proletarii and its unlogical, as formal resolutions are formal things like new curial offices and formal ammendments. It focus the important things like awards in the hands of a ruling class of a few in the curia active citizens , the Optimates, which mostly care about curial offices and formal ammendments to secure their power as ruling class.

    A NO echoed the stairs of the curia up.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; March 06, 2019 at 01:40 AM.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
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  5. #5
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    How would the removal of the ostraka, nominee for awards and VonC would the Prothalomos lose its interest? The point was to open the Prothalomos to encourage new ideas from other members and promote citizenship int the process.
    ...
    This proposal only put citizen actions within citizens' remit... Ostaka is the revocation of citizenship. There is no reason why input from others would have bearing on that. VonC is similarly member elected by citizens. Only citizens could remove Curia Officer. Large wards are an extension of the Curia's function. None of these inhibits the influx of "new ideas" or discussion. Moreover, amendments remain in the Prothalomos, because unlike some, I believe the Constitution to be a sitewide document.
    Well, if you don't associate regular members to all curial processes somehow, you're denaturing the purpose of that amendement. As specified in your quote, citizens are the only one to vote anyway. So what's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The Curia has spoken. I am willing to let it sink and swim on its own merit or lack there.
    Don't mind at all. That's up to you. Not my problem if you can't accept the vote results.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  6. #6

    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley_Quinn View Post
    I agree, it makes the prothalamos unattractive for the proletarii and its unlogical, as formal resolutions are formal things like new curial offices and formal ammendments. It focus the important things like awards in the hands of a ruling class of a few in the curia active citizens , the Optimates, which mostly care about curial offices and formal ammendments to secure their power as ruling class.

    A NO echoed the stairs of the curia up.
    I am curious. When I was a pereginus, i would have little reasons to comment on an Ostraka debate if one had arise. Are you suggesting that you would want to comment on whether or not a citizen should have his citizenship revoke? If so, can you elaborate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Well, if you don't associate regular members to all curial processes somehow, you're denaturing the purpose of that amendement. As specified in your quote, citizens are the only one to vote anyway. So what's the point?
    How so? You keep saying that, but you have yet to explain your position?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Don't mind at all. That's up to you. Not my problem if you can't accept the vote results.
    I literally wrote; The Curia has spoken. I am willing.... Seems as though I am moving to the next phase.

  7. #7
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I am curious. When I was a pereginus, i would have little reasons to comment on an Ostraka debate if one had arise. Are you suggesting that you would want to comment on whether or not a citizen should have his citizenship revoke? If so, can you elaborate?

    ...
    If a citizen is permanently TOS breaking misbehaving in the pit, i as proletarii want a legal way to show the curia, that something must be done, because user xyz is not behaving citizenlike in the pit. A little publicity could not harm the curia or have you something to hide?
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I am curious. When I was a pereginus, i would have little reasons to comment on an Ostraka debate if one had arise. Are you suggesting that you would want to comment on whether or not a citizen should have his citizenship revoke? If so, can you elaborate?
    Well, as a peregrinus I would have gladly intervened in the referral that took place against a citizen for behaving like a third class bully against me.

    Generally speaking, what about the testimony of a non-citizen regarding the activities for which a citizen is being tried (or awarded)? Would it never be relevant? Non-citizens must act, at best, as mere informers or they can debate as equals with other citizens, at last? As far as I know for that there was a long debate and a vote very recently.
    Last edited by mishkin; March 06, 2019 at 02:36 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    You don't even now. Unless I am mistaken, not even a citizen has the means to initiate a Referral. Praefects can only do it here and in the Curia. However, moderators do issue warnings. Those are referred to the Curia. As citizens, however, that power was removed.

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    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    How so? You keep saying that, but you have yet to explain your position?
    That's pretty clear. An amendement has been voted and implemented. Give it time to see if it needs to be changed or updated instead of proposing "solutions" for issues that have not raised yet and may not raise at all actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I literally wrote; The Curia has spoken. I am willing.... Seems as though I am moving to the next phase.
    Are you trying to convince yourself? Because this kind of proposal proves the contrary IMO.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    That's pretty clear. An amendement has been voted and implemented. Give it time to see if it needs to be changed or updated instead of proposing "solutions" for issues that have not raised yet and may not raise at all actually.
    You want me to assume it may fail, wait for it, then counter-propose the Prothalomos back tot he Curia?

    Prior to the passing of the Ostraka proposal, appeals were posted in the QP. I personally think anything involving citizenship should take place in the QP, so I would have made this proposal eventually. At the time of the proposal, I had other reasons to opposed it so I did not notice that appeals were placed in the Prothalomos.

    Vote of No Confidence is obvious to me as well. It involved elected officials by the Citizens. I have never seen a comment by a Peregrinus regarding elections. It seems logical to me that they take place among citizens.
    The large awards I am on the fence on, TBH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Are you trying to convince yourself? Because this kind of proposal proves the contrary IMO.
    TBH, you have a strange negative opinion of me, so I am not surprised you have a negative view.

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    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Support, but only for the following:


    • The Vote of No confidence also is a Curia affair since it is the Curia that has elected the official.


    A VonC should never be able to be initiated by a non-citizen.

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Opposed. None of these issues is harmed by non citizens being able to comment directly on such a proposal. The citizens' exclusive right to vote precludes any „danger“ of undue influence.
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Support the idea. Move the Prothalamus back and open up a discussion thread for the non-citizens where they can have their voice heard and any ideas they propose can be adopted by a citizen and proposed in the normal manner.

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    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    You want me to assume it may fail, wait for it, then counter-propose the Prothalomos back tot he Curia?

    Prior to the passing of the Ostraka proposal, appeals were posted in the QP. I personally think anything involving citizenship should take place in the QP, so I would have made this proposal eventually. At the time of the proposal, I had other reasons to opposed it so I did not notice that appeals were placed in the Prothalomos.

    Vote of No Confidence is obvious to me as well. It involved elected officials by the Citizens. I have never seen a comment by a Peregrinus regarding elections. It seems logical to me that they take place among citizens.
    The large awards I am on the fence on, TBH.
    Not my point. No failure can't be reversed and considering the present condition of the curia, it won't contribute to its fall. To re-use what you quoted a few posts above:

    From order 66
    ... there should theoretically be little issue with this sort of melding of minds and any potential influx of new ideas, discussion, etc. Citizens will still be the only ones allowed to vote, and hopefully be allowed a clearer and more direct view of other members views on certain proposals, decisions, and anything else brought up.
    It seems that you have missed the part I've boldered and that's why I'm opposed to your proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    TBH, you have a strange negative opinion of me, so I am not surprised you have a negative view.
    Don't get me wrong: you are perfectly entitled to defend your proposals and ideas. That's perfectly fine. But you also should accept the fact that not everybody can agree with you and can oppose to your proposals. Nothing personal here contrarily to what you seem to think.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  16. #16
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by General Brewster View Post
    A VonC should never be able to be initiated by a non-citizen.
    Wait, is it supposed that now non-citizens can start this procedure? If so, that is easily fixed by making a clarification in the constitution. ("Only citizens can start a Vonc").

  17. #17
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Wait, is it supposed that now non-citizens can start this procedure? If so, that is easily fixed by making a clarification in the constitution. ("Only citizens can start a Vonc").
    There's nothing saying that you couldn't at this point. So I think it's reasonable that there would indeed be made a clarification in the constitution that says only citizens could do that yeah Good suggestion Mish!

  18. #18

    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by General Brewster View Post
    Support, but only for the following:


    • The Vote of No confidence also is a Curia affair since it is the Curia that has elected the official.


    A VonC should never be able to be initiated by a non-citizen.
    Only a citizen can start a resolution. as per Contitution
    Any Citizen can propose a resolution for discussion by posting a thread in the Prothalamos.7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Not my point. No failure can't be reversed and considering the present condition of the curia, it won't contribute to its fall. To re-use what you quoted a few posts above:

    From order 66
    It seems that you have missed the part I've boldered and that's why I'm opposed to your proposal.
    The purpose of moving the Prothalomos was to get more direct insight from peregrinus. Furthermore, Hader argued that this would generate interest in citizenship.
    I do not see how Ostraka or VonC would be required to accomplish this goal. It is an internal Curia matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Don't get me wrong: you are perfectly entitled to defend your proposals and ideas. That's perfectly fine. But you also should accept the fact that not everybody can agree with you and can oppose to your proposals. Nothing personal here contrarily to what you seem to think.
    I honestly cannot follow these discussions. I never once stated that you are not "entitled to opposed" nor did I made any statement that I expect anyone to agree with me. I would prefer if you would stop trying to psychoanalyze my intentions and either opposed or support the proposal and leave me out of it.

  19. #19
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    I wouldn't say a Vonc is a resolution perse.

  20. #20

    Default Re: [Amendment] Resolving Issue with Prothalomos' Movement

    Neither would I, but it is listed as a Resolution.

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