Erdogan warns oil companies against drilling in... Cyprus

[ioannis76]

Northern Cyprus is recognised only by Turkey, a country which facilitates many of its contacts with the international community. After declaring independence from the Republic of Cyprus, Northern Cyprus' relations with the rest of the world were further complicated by a series of United Nations resolutions which declared its independence legally invalid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig...orthern_Cyprus

Once again. Northern Cyprus is not recognised by anyone but Turkey, and there is good reason for that, which is the best interests of the international community (ie the international community does NOT wish to encourage or facilitate war as a method of annexing territory or declaring independent states). Consequently, the entity of "Northern Cyprus" cannot have an EEZ. And of course Turkey has absolutely no business stepping in. In fact, the only thing that Turkey is succeeding in, is demonstrating beyond the shadow of a doubt that "Northern Cyprus" is just a puppet entity of Turkey.
It is not my opinion or alhoon's opinion that "Northern Cyprus" cannot have an EEZ, it is the opinion of the international community. And that cannot be changed by Turkey. Tough luck, maybe Turkey should have though better before launching a land grab. Now, Turkey has to support this entity, without getting any strategic resources in return.
Unless, of course Turkey wishes to confront countries such as the US and France, which have interests in the oil reserves of Cyprus, Turkey would do well to keep its "Fatih" away from the area, lest a "terrible accident" occurs. .

[Odenat]

One hour ago, Greek and Turkish foreign ministers Georgios Katrugolos and Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu made a joint press conference. Georgios Katrugolos said that : "We know that Turkey have rights at Eastern Mediterranean. No project without Turkish participation is realist. Turkey have rights at the area according to the international law."

This is breaking news in Turkish media. Sorry that i do not have an English source. Here is a Turkish source: http://www.milliyet.com.tr/son-dakik...dunya-2845925/

You know what is funny? Greek foreign minister is saying exactly the same thing Turkish forum members are saying in this thread. I wonder what will be the reaction of Greek forum members to what their own foreign minister says.

[swabian]

You know what is funny? Greek foreign minister is saying exactly the same thing Turkish forum members are saying in this thread. I wonder what will be the reaction of Greek forum members to what their own foreign minister says.

Funny? Maybe it's because little Greece has to sit beside an established disrespectful bully. Maybe it's because Turkey has a land army that is so strong that it even worries large western European countries. Yes, i said "worries", Mr. Nato-Partner.

[PointOfViewGun]

Funny? Maybe it's because little Greece has to sit beside an established disrespectful bully. Maybe it's because Turkey has a land army that is so strong that it even worries large western European countries. Yes, i said "worries", Mr. Nato-Partner.

Your comment would have weight if Greece was really acting as a scared kid overall. We know for a fact that it doesn't. Heck, its not just against Turkey, but Greece even threated EU before. To portray Greece as a bullied kid is to not know the reality on the ground. Greece is as much of a bully as Turkey is in many ways.

[swabian]

I never said Greece was a "kid". It's a small country, that's it. It also has an unusually high degree of militarization for of course completely obscure reasons.

[Aexodus]

One hour ago, Greek and Turkish foreign ministers Georgios Katrugolos and Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu made a joint press conference. Georgios Katrugolos said that : "We know that Turkey have rights at Eastern Mediterranean. No project without Turkish participation is realist. Turkey have rights at the area according to the international law."

What area is that?

[ioannis76]

One hour ago, Greek and Turkish foreign ministers Georgios Katrugolos and Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu made a joint press conference. Georgios Katrugolos said that : "We know that Turkey have rights at Eastern Mediterranean. No project without Turkish participation is realist. Turkey have rights at the area according to the international law."

This is breaking news in Turkish media. Sorry that i do not have an English source. Here is a Turkish source: http://www.milliyet.com.tr/son-dakik...dunya-2845925/

You know what is funny? Greek foreign minister is saying exactly the same thing Turkish forum members are saying in this thread. I wonder what will be the reaction of Greek forum members to what their own foreign minister says.

First off, this is a government, according to many people here, of traitors. To even sit and not cancel the visit, while a dfew days ago Erdogan used a derogatory term to refer to the Greeks ("gavur") is unacceptable.
Second, even Katrouganos (as he is referred to here "uganos" being a word for idiot) said that:

https://www.protothema.gr/politics/a...s-tin-tourkia/

«στην ανατολική Μεσόγειο έχει η Τουρκία δικαιώματα που της αναγνωρίζει το δίκαιο της θάλασσας που εμείς θέλουμε να διέπει τις μεταξύ μας διαφορές»

translated as:
"In the eastern Mediterranean, Turkey has rights which are acknowledged by the Right of the Sea, which we want to permeate/govern the differences between us (Hellas and Turkey)."

If Turkey were to accept the Right of the Sea, then this would mean that the turkish EEZ would be this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The map is pretty self explanatory. Even I accept that Turkey has these rights in the Aegean and the Eastern med.

[PointOfViewGun]

What area is that?

He referred to Eastern Mediterranean, and not a more specific area like north of Cyprus.

If Turkey were to accept the Right of the Sea, then this would mean that the turkish EEZ would be this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The map is pretty self explanatory. Even I accept that Turkey has these rights in the Aegean and the Eastern med.

That's not really true. Especially in the case Kastellorizo, Greece wants to bully Turkey by applying the law in a very limited manner, ignoring principles of the UNCLOS. We already have similar court cases that indicates us that Greece will not be getting that map.

[ioannis76]

He referred to Eastern Mediterranean, and not a more specific area like north of Cyprus.




That's not really true. Especially in the case Kastellorizo, Greece wants to bully Turkey by applying the law in a very limited manner, ignoring principles of the UNCLOS. We already have similar court cases that indicates us that Greece will not be getting that map.

Would you care to elaborate?
The map shows the LEGAL EEZs in the area.

Greece

Greece has claimed an exclusive economic zone, as it is entitled to do so, as per UNCLOS 1982 as well as customary international law.[37]

According to published maps, the Israel government has recognized the Exclusive Economic Zones (EEZ) of Greece and Cyprus. They describe the course of the gas pipeline which will transfer gas produced by American Νoble Εnergy Ltd. from the Leviathan reservoir to Europe, through an undersea pipeline crossing Greece. The gas pipeline should traverse the sea area, which according to international law, is part of the Greek EEZ. By this proposal, Israel recognizes the Greek EEZ in the area and offers an advantage that Greece can use during negotiation procedures to support its claims on the area. In practice, this cooperation will set up a powerful energy coalition between Greece, Cyprus and Israel. The mining and operating part will be undertaken by an American company.[38] "The substance of the issue is that in an effort to protect and secure vital Israeli interests in the Mediterranean Sea, Israel has been left with no choice other than to officially delimit its maritime borders".[39]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclus...ic_zone#Greece

Where is the "limited manner"?

[PointOfViewGun]

Would you care to elaborate?
The map shows the LEGAL EEZs in the area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclus...ic_zone#Greece
Where is the "limited manner"?

Meet Saint Pierre et Miquelon:



Canada and France disputed the extent of their EEZ in the region above. France wanted pretty everything south of the islands. Canada disputed that and claimed that French island did not have an EEZ beyond their territorial waters. In 1992, they decided to establish an arbitral tribunal to reach a conclusion. The map above shows the decision of the tribunal, though the decision was criticized by both parties. France got about 18% of what it initially claimed.

It's quite a nice example for the Kastellorizo issue. The situation is pretty identical. Greece pretty much wants to cut the entire area south of the island of Kastellorizo from Turkey's EEZ for its own. This first and foremost violates the equity clause of the UNCLOS.

From the beginning of the UNCLOS:

Recognizing the desirability of establishing through this Convention, with due regard for the sovereignty of all States, a legal order for the seas and oceans which will facilitate international communication, and will promote the peaceful uses of the seas and oceans, the equitable and efficient utilization of their resources, the conservation of their living resources, and the study, protection and preservation of the marine environment,

There is also, I believe, the issue of continental shelf. The UNCLOS gives economic rights over the continental shelf to the coastal state. From Article 77:

1. The coastal State exercises over the continental shelf sovereign rights for the purpose of exploring it and exploiting its natural resources.

2. The rights referred to in paragraph 1 are exclusive in the sense that if the coastal State does not explore the continental shelf or exploit its natural resources, no one may undertake these activities without the express consent of the coastal State.

The argument there, from Turkey's and Canada's point of view, is that islands such as Saint Pierre et Miquelon or Kastellorizo do not have an EEZ beyond their territorial waters when they do not have a continental shelf like the mainland Newfoundland or Anatolia has. It can extend as far as 350 miles.

[ioannis76]

that islands such as Saint Pierre et Miquelon or Kastellorizo do not have an EEZ beyond their territorial waters when they do not have a continental shelf like the mainland Newfoundland or Anatolia has.

Well, I am not sure of the Saint Pierre case, but I think that here, the law is preeety simple:

Islands possess the same maritime zones as other landmasses, including a territorial sea, contiguous zone, EEZ, and continental shelf.

https://sites.tufts.edu/lawofthesea/chapter-two/

So, what you say contradicts what the law of the sea says. As for "blocking" Turkey or whatnot, no, Turkey is not blocked. Turkey has quite a large "v" shaped EEZ piece, right east of Kastelorizzo.

[Aexodus]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What exactly is wrong with this arrangement POVG?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Are the drilling zones not inside Cyprus’ EEZ?

[PointOfViewGun]

Well, I am not sure of the Saint Pierre case, but I think that here, the law is preeety simple:
https://sites.tufts.edu/lawofthesea/chapter-two/
So, what you say contradicts what the law of the sea says. As for "blocking" Turkey or whatnot, no, Turkey is not blocked. Turkey has quite a large "v" shaped EEZ piece, right east of Kastelorizzo.

Sigh... You're making that post while ignoring what I said completely. What I said does not contradict the UNCLOS since I directly quoted parts of it. You simply chose to ignore it. You comment on the "V" shaped EEZ can only be taken as a joke.

What exactly is wrong with this arrangement POVG?

It's not equitable per UNCLOS. Small islands with little population cut off vast amounts of EEZ area that millions of people would have access to. This is clearly supported by the international communities through their own objections on areas relating to them and through the tribunal decision I pointed out earlier.

Are the drilling zones not inside Cyprus’ EEZ?

Let's say they are; will any money the government of Southern Cyprus makes from those drill contracts be spent on Turks living in the north that the Southern Cypriot government has a claim on?

[ioannis76]

What I said does not contradict the UNCLOS since I directly quoted parts of it. You simply chose to ignore it.

Your point (and if I'm not mistaken it's Turkey's point, as well) is that islands don't have an EEZ. This is clearly rejected by the Law of the Sea.
And my question to you, if Turkey believes that the law of the Sea is to her benefit, then why not sign it and accept it and work from there?

[PointOfViewGun]

Your point (and if I'm not mistaken it's Turkey's point, as well) is that islands don't have an EEZ. This is clearly rejected by the Law of the Sea.
And my question to you, if Turkey believes that the law of the Sea is to her benefit, then why not sign it and accept it and work from there?

Sigh... No, neither my, nor Turkey's, position is that islands do not have an EEZ. I explained the situation. I even provided a very similar example where we already had an international tribunal verdict on. Yet, you chose to misrepresent what I said. Not much more I can say about that.

UNCLOS is flawed. It's a relatively simple law that doesn't properly take into account of complex issues like what we have in Aegean. Hence, where there are similar cases in the world there is a dispute over economic rights even among countries like France and Canada. None are as vital, or "heavy", as the issue in the Mediterranean, hence, they're able to resolve it peacefully. Turkey was an active participant during the UNCLOS III, but since its reservations was not heeded it declined to sign the final draft. This whole issue unfortunately is also quite dependent on popularity.

[AnthoniusII]

Sigh... No, neither my, nor Turkey's, position is that islands do not have an EEZ. I explained the situation. I even provided a very similar example where we already had an international tribunal verdict on. Yet, you chose to misrepresent what I said. Not much more I can say about that.

UNCLOS is flawed. It's a relatively simple law that doesn't properly take into account of complex issues like what we have in Aegean. Hence, where there are similar cases in the world there is a dispute over economic rights even among countries like France and Canada. None are as vital, or "heavy", as the issue in the Mediterranean, hence, they're able to resolve it peacefully. Turkey was an active participant during the UNCLOS III, but since its reservations was not heeded it declined to sign the final draft. This whole issue unfortunately is also quite dependent on popularity.

UNCLOS is flawed I agree...or more accuratly your Defence Minister agrees and goes to all Turkish Media and claim that Turkey owns the entire Aegean, east Mediteranean, Cyprus and Black sea with their islands, their sea surface and thei deep!
So...He actually says...we do not give a damn to International Law as long we are the strongest state in the region and we make our own rules!
But Hulushi Akar does not read History very well. Too many powerfull states made such claims and ended in to ruins...
In 1940 Italy was a superpower and Greece had already two Balkan wars a WW and 2 Campaigns making the state exausted...But Italy overestimated the Greeks and lost and beged Germany to come to its rescue...If Erdogan things that he is the recarnation of Suleiman the Magnificent , IF he starts to lose the war who will call to his rescue?

[Aexodus]

Sigh... No, neither my, nor Turkey's, position is that islands do not have an EEZ. I explained the situation. I even provided a very similar example where we already had an international tribunal verdict on. Yet, you chose to misrepresent what I said. Not much more I can say about that.

UNCLOS is flawed. It's a relatively simple law that doesn't properly take into account of complex issues like what we have in Aegean. Hence, where there are similar cases in the world there is a dispute over economic rights even among countries like France and Canada. None are as vital, or "heavy", as the issue in the Mediterranean, hence, they're able to resolve it peacefully. Turkey was an active participant during the UNCLOS III, but since its reservations was not heeded it declined to sign the final draft. This whole issue unfortunately is also quite dependent on popularity.

But why does Turkey currently have rights to Cyprus’ EEZ?

[PointOfViewGun]

UNCLOS is flawed I agree...or more accuratly your Defence Minister agrees and goes to all Turkish Media and claim that Turkey owns the entire Aegean, east Mediteranean, Cyprus and Black sea with their islands, their sea surface and thei deep!
So...He actually says...we do not give a damn to International Law as long we are the strongest state in the region and we make our own rules!
But Hulushi Akar does not read History very well. Too many powerfull states made such claims and ended in to ruins...
In 1940 Italy was a superpower and Greece had already two Balkan wars a WW and 2 Campaigns making the state exausted...But Italy overestimated the Greeks and lost and beged Germany to come to its rescue...If Erdogan things that he is the recarnation of Suleiman the Magnificent , IF he starts to lose the war who will call to his rescue?

Care to provide a link where the Turkish defense minister went anywhere and claimed that Turkey owns all those that you listed (in bold)?

But why does Turkey currently have rights to Cyprus’ EEZ?

Not rights, but claims, and not just Turkey, but Turkey and Northern Cyprus.

[ioannis76]

Well, apparently, it seems that the deal between Canada and France have managed to allow Turkey to delete islands:

https://www.thenationalherald.com/22...slands-cyprus/

Turkish Eastern Meditereanean Maps Don’t Show Greek Islands, Cyprus

Here, Turkey has "deleted" the Kastelorizo island, as well as Megisti and Strogguli:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here is how it actually is (it reads "Συμπλεγμα Καστελορίζου", it's just east of Rhodos):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now, if Turkey has a point, then why would they go about deleting a whole island off the map, do you think?

Not rights, but claims, and not just Turkey, but Turkey and Northern Cyprus.

So, Turkey and its pet non-country.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well, apparently, it seems that the deal between Canada and France have managed to allow Turkey to delete islands:
https://www.thenationalherald.com/22...slands-cyprus/
Here, Turkey has "deleted" the Kastelorizo island, as well as Megisti and Strogguli:
Here is how it actually is (it reads "Συμπλεγμα Καστελορίζου", it's just east of Rhodos):
Now, if Turkey has a point, then why would they go about deleting a whole island off the map, do you think?
So, Turkey and its pet non-country.

Sigh... You found random maps online and try to attribute them to a Turkish government to claim that Turkey deleted islands. The funny part is that the Kastellorizo island is in that map. You can spot the islands of Kastellorizo and Stroggili right next to the red line on the top. The second map is less visible when it comes to those islands and you somehow present it as how it actually is. The two maps also show drastically different issues. The first one is about continental shelf and the other is about Greek EEZ claim. The real question is, if your position had so much merit why would you resort to such amateurish petty arguments?

Ofcourse, this is a deflection from your failure to address the example I have given concerning Canada and France.