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Thread: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

  1. #1
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    Icon5 Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Would you guys think I am a fence sitter for being Agnostic?


    I was born and raised in the Presbyterian Church. My Mother and older brother are Presbyterians, so are her late parents (my grandfather was a Roman Catholic then converted when he met and married my grandmother). My father is a Roman Catholic along with his family. His brother-in-law (My Uncle by marriage) is a Protestant I think but not sure of his exact denomination and a few cousin in laws on his side are Greek Orthodox. So as you can see, a little backstory of why I been struggling with this.

    I was never a "bible thumper" but I would also think atheists were crazy not to believe in at least something.



    But over the past few years, the seeds started to get planted in my head. Do animals go to heaven? Do we really have souls and even if we did, how can we have ghosts and souls roaming around when your brain is decayed decades after you kick the bucket? The past few months up to now I'm almost at that point where I can officially say I don't really outright believe.


    Why am I not a Atheist then? Well, 1. I still hope in some way there is something on the other side besides eternal oblivion. 2. How can I say God isn't real, when I can't prove it? I can't prove he is REAL, but can't prove that he's NOT REAL. So that's why I believe I am in the middle. Is there A GOD? Sure. I don't believe in Heaven and Hell in the sense like you see in the movies, and I know die hard science people don't like this as a argument, but why is Earth in such a good spot? A few degrees here or a few changes there and human life would not be here. Is this really of A God's design, or just a really fluky science thing that we can't explain yet?


    So yeah, I'm in the middle. But I feel like a fence sitter. All the religion people would probably love to debate me "YOU HEATHEN YOU!!!!" but then atheists would love to get mad at me to I bet "HOW CAN YOU STILL SLIGHTLY THINK THERE IS A MAN OR WOMAN IN THE SKY!!!!".


    Is being Agnostic wrong? Am I wrong?

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    @OP My question for you would be why you would allow other people to put you on the fences they created. You could ask yourself whether there is anything divine about those fences or whether they're the work of mortals like yourself. If the latter, then feel free to put up your own fences to sit on wherever you like!
    Last edited by Muizer; March 01, 2019 at 01:40 PM.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Honestly, I don't think there can be a right or wrong answer. The hypocrisies and contradiction within christianity and it's hundred odd denominations and sub-cults are confusing with each telling you to do what THEY say or go to hell.

    Go with your gut

  4. #4

    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Meh. I'm both atheist and agnostic and screw what anybody else says.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    1- Atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist. There are literally no rational arguments to support atheism. The arguments from evil, self-contradiction, etc., are all easily refuted.

    2- Theism is the belief that God exists. There's an obscene number of arguments for theism; ontological, metaphysical (from contingency, change, etc.), moral, and so on. Some are stronger than others.

    3- Agnosticism is the belief that the question of God's existence is fundamentally unanswerable, so neither theism nor atheism are affirmed. The only argument to justify an agnostic stance is that from insufficient evidence, which is also refuted; see #2.

    Most modern "nonbelievers" believe God was invented by Judeo-Christian religion, so in their rejection of Christianity they reject God along with it. This position would've been considered downright absurd by most classical pagans. I think it was Aristotle who said, anyone who denies the existence of a Necessary Being belongs in a madhouse. God can be discovered via human reason, so divine revelation isn't necessary. You can think all religions are bunk and still believe there is a God.
    Last edited by Prodromos; March 01, 2019 at 02:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    I'm a "hard" agnostic myself. And frankly, it's the only logical choice.

    The idea of god is, inherently, unprovable, as by definition it's something that is not subject to any logical system, and without it, there's no objective way to prove or disprove it. Sure, you can have the "feeling" or some kind of "divine revelation"-I'm sure basics will be here shortly to write about his-but neither you, nor anyone else, will be able to tell whether it's true, a dream, mental illness or anything else imaginable. And given the number and contradictions between these various "revelations", you have to choose between them arbitrarily, or discard them all as untrue.

    I've got a saying about this: There are two kinds of people. Had a fiery letters "I am God. Bow before me." appeared in the sky, one kind would bow. The other would grab telescopes and go looking for aliens with bad sense of humour. Every experience, every phenomenon, can be approached in two ways. Logical, in which god or any kind of divine become irrelevant as it's not part of a logical system by definition, or as a consequence of an arbitrary phenomenon-god, in which case, you cannot form a logical, causal link. But only one of these ways provide a result that can be objectively used.

    While this sounds pretty much like atheism, I do not consider irrelevant equal to inexistent. After all, logic, science, even mathematics...they're all mental concepts born from empiricism. And we're not omniscient. Empiricism is inherently limited. There is a possibility of something outside logic. But because of it, the possibilities are infinite. A biblical god is just as possible as Allah, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Matrix-kind of scenario or that the universe was born out of the thing I dropped in the toilet today.

    However, we do accept the basic tenets on logic without being aware of it. It's how we're able to make sense of the world around us. Any interaction with other people is based on them. So, my conclusion is...believe in anything you want, but any god goes no further than your own head. Out there, it's logic first.

    Agnosticism doesn't have to be sitting on the fence, it can be completely reasonable, logical stance...that just doesn't give a damn about any god.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    OP, religion has been used for the Political Phenomena even before Christ appeared.

    Simply try to work out for yourself what beliefs are there out of philosophical/mystical musing and what beliefs are there due to convienent introduction of "useful beliefs for political/power game reasons".

    The rest should work itself out.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Thanks everyone. You all said something that I can relate to or been feeling so thanks and + rep to all of you.


    If I really had to pick something, I would put myself down for Empirical agnosticism.

    According to Wikipedia:
    The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable; therefore, one will withhold judgment until evidence, if any, becomes available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day, if there is evidence, we can find something out.

    I always say, especially as of late, it's 50/50 and we are all going to find out when we die.


    But to be serious, thanks a lot all. I feel comfortable now.

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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Cold Shogun Panther View Post
    ..So yeah, I'm in the middle. ..
    No, you're not, as Atheist for faith, I just think you've not yet dared to take the last choice and move the last step, so, you're still happily in the generous hands of the Israelitic God worshipped by Abraham, Constantine I and Mohammed, actually there's nothing bad in this.

    Consider that, without God, at first the universe may seem a dangerosuly solitary place, actually you realize that Atheism is the only hope to have some rest from the human obsession of self celebration of the Ego only at a later stage, in fact it is rare that young people are already bored by loving themselves.

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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Stone Cold Shogun Panther,

    Don't get too comfortable just yet because unless you know God now, personally, tomorrow may well be too late. It's between you and God where your future lies regardless of anyone else and their opinions. Your situation as now is that you are under condemnation by the Law of God, a sinner and can only be relieved of that by acknowledging that Jesus Christ died for your sins on that cross at Calvary. God's already talking to you, the reason you publicly state your feelings as you have so don't be afraid to cry out to Him that He would change your life. This is your chance so grasp it with all your heart and believe me that God won't let you down. Get hold of a Bible and see for yourself what God promises and keeps for you'll never regret it once that change is made. Jesus once said that a man does not live by bread alone but by every word that cometh from the mouth of God. That word is the Bible and so what is contained in it is the power of God to save. There is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Cold Shogun Panther View Post

    If I really had to pick something, I would put myself down for Empirical agnosticism.
    Some solved this issue empirically after a mystical experience, but such fate is relatively rare.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  12. #12

    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Cold Shogun Panther View Post
    Would you guys think I am a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    I was born and raised in the Presbyterian Church. My Mother and older brother are Presbyterians, so are her late parents (my grandfather was a Roman Catholic then converted when he met and married my grandmother). My father is a Roman Catholic along with his family. His brother-in-law (My Uncle by marriage) is a Protestant I think but not sure of his exact denomination and a few cousin in laws on his side are Greek Orthodox. So as you can see, a little backstory of why I been struggling with this.

    I was never a "bible thumper" but I would also think atheists were crazy not to believe in at least something.

    But over the past few years, the seeds started to get planted in my head. Do animals go to heaven? Do we really have souls and even if we did, how can we have ghosts and souls roaming around when your brain is decayed decades after you kick the bucket? The past few months up to now I'm almost at that point where I can officially say I don't really outright believe.

    Why am I not a Atheist then? Well, 1. I still hope in some way there is something on the other side besides eternal oblivion. 2. How can I say God isn't real, when I can't prove it? I can't prove he is REAL, but can't prove that he's NOT REAL. So that's why I believe I am in the middle. Is there A GOD? Sure. I don't believe in Heaven and Hell in the sense like you see in the movies, and I know die hard science people don't like this as a argument, but why is Earth in such a good spot? A few degrees here or a few changes there and human life would not be here. Is this really of A God's design, or just a really fluky science thing that we can't explain yet?

    So yeah, I'm in the middle. But I feel like a fence sitter. All the religion people would probably love to debate me "YOU HEATHEN YOU!!!!" but then atheists would love to get mad at me to I bet "HOW CAN YOU STILL SLIGHTLY THINK THERE IS A MAN OR WOMAN IN THE SKY!!!!".

    Is being Agnostic wrong? Am I wrong?
    Unless, you're Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, or the likes of them, you are agnostic by default. Everyone is, whether they consider themselves Christian, Jews, or Muslims. Even atheists are.
    The Armenian Issue

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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Cold Shogun Panther View Post

    Is being Agnostic wrong? Am I wrong?
    Your question is wrong. You're not wrong. To lack epistemological certainty is the opposite of wrong.... well, it's not right exactly, but it definitely isn't wrong.
    Doubt everything, find your own light - Buddha.

    Slave owners, priests, Fascist dictators, Communist dictators all told their flocks that to doubt and to question their magical word was the ultimate and most unforgivable vice. You know a man best by knowing what he hates, a man who hates doubt is the worst kind of man. The same goes for atheists who are in the thrall of scientism or some other form of fanaticism.

    The existential dread you're feeling, having reached a liminal period in your life, has many positive aspects. It's a good goad to action, especially for reading if the path of self-edification is appealing (which it should be). When I left the church I, unfortunately, dove straight for the harshest atheistic material: Hitchens, Dawkins, Nietzsche etc. (Although Nietzsche is fantastic) I'd advise a slightly gentler transition: Kierkegaard, especially, helped me to understand what belief actually is, its value and so on. Milton is great too. Bertrand Russel obviously.

    To be absolutely faithless is, of course, stupid and more importantly: practically impossible. So, you're not really on any fence. You're just not in one of the groups that like to build fences around themselves. You're now free to find bed-fellows (no homo) in unexpected places. Freed from the blinkers of group-think and being a free individual you have the pleasure and responsibility of developing your own philosophy. You can be lazy and join another group or another kind of lazy and just drift where the wind blows you, making up the reasons as you go along (like most people these days). If you want happiness above all other things, joining a group is easier and better

    Why am I not a Atheist then? Well, 1. I still hope in some way there is something on the other side besides eternal oblivion.


    Ugh, laaaaaaaaaaaame.
    Why? Who would want to have to exist forever being bothered by annoying immortal relatives who never go away or die? Besides, the typical criteria for achieving heaven is usually only reserved for the most insufferably dull and irritating people. Even to exist in a perfect union with a perfect being would be its own kind of torment for anyone with individualistic leanings. Although seeing my dead pets again would be cool.
    You can be an atheist and still believe in an afterlife. 32% of us do believe in an afterlife. Some sects of Buddhism are also atheistic (I joined one when I lived in Japan). More obviously there are atheists who believe in the paranormal: ghosts and stuff. I actually know one and yes, she is an idiot.

    2. How can I say God isn't real, when I can't prove it? I can't prove he is REAL, but can't prove that he's NOT REAL. So that's why I believe I am in the middle. Is there A GOD? Sure.
    Ok, you're an agnostic-theist. Cool. But most theists are also agnostic anyway, so.....
    You're a non-religious-theist.

    I know die hard science people don't like this as a argument, but why is Earth in such a good spot? A few degrees here or a few changes there and human life would not be here. Is this really of A God's design, or just a really fluky science thing that we can't explain yet?
    It's perfectly explainable: it's called the habitable zone. We can identify 16 planets in habitable-zones orbiting other stars, some star systems have up to three planets in the habitable zones (extrapolating this to the broader universe gives us billions of possibly habitable planets. It is not fluky, it is statistically guaranteed, even in a finite universe, that a certain number of planets have conditions conducive to the development of life. We can also explain the cosmological evolution of our solar system, so we know how it developed the way that it did. If you ask why, maybe then you can bring God into the equation. But that just seems more like decoration than anything else, which is fine, I like decoration.

    So yeah, I'm in the middle. But I feel like a fence sitter. All the religion people would probably love to debate me "YOU HEATHEN YOU!!!!" but then atheists would love to get mad at me to I bet "HOW CAN YOU STILL SLIGHTLY THINK THERE IS A MAN OR WOMAN IN THE SKY!!!!".
    Yup, we atheists are a contrarian bunch. But then again, so are theists...…. us humans are a contrarian bunch.
    Be an individual, when people try to belittle you for your beliefs or lack of beliefs, tell them to go themselves.
    (I was mostly joking when I belittled your beliefs about the afterlife)
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Himster,

    You were never in the church to leave it. The church that Jesus is building is made up of people in whom the Holy Spirit dwells and whom God will never let go once they know Jesus to be their Lord and Saviour. So, when you pass on your supposed wisdom to this young guy you speak of something you really know nothing about. Despite your comments and despite what the seeker is asking God is still bulding His church through the blood of Jesus Christ and those that seek Him in earnest will find Him. God is way beyond being as you put it a man or woman in the sky as one day you will find out.

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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    You were never in the church to leave it. The church that Jesus is building is made up of people in whom the Holy Spirit dwells and whom God will never let go once they know Jesus to be their Lord and Saviour.
    I believed what I was ordered to believe, like most Christians, like most people really. I went to Catholic school, suffered under the ministrations of the De la Salle Brothers and the Sisters of "Mercy" and the Carmelite wenches. I became an altar boy (wasn't raped, yay), was a scout leader (which is/was intensely Catholic in Ireland), led hundreds in prayer. I initially went to art school to develop the skill of producing devotional works, but that's when and where I ceased to be catholic. So by any reasonable definition in the English language I was unquestionably in a Church. Not everyone speaks in the esoteric vernacular of your obscure sub-sect of Presbyterianism which is a sub-sect of Calvinism, being of the sub-sect of Protestantism that is in itself a sub-sect of Christianity, which is a sub-sect of Abrahamic religions. I just fail to see what you were trying to communicate knowing that only I (having talked with you much over the years) and maybe 2 others in the whole TWC would understand what you meant.

    So, when you pass on your supposed wisdom to this young guy you speak of something you really know nothing about. Despite your comments and despite what the seeker is asking God is still bulding His church through the blood of Jesus Christ and those that seek Him in earnest will find Him. God is way beyond being as you put it a man or woman in the sky as one day you will find out.
    I know plenty about leaving a religion and having doubts and being afraid of being a fence-sitter, I have personal experience of this. What do you know about that sort of thing? I know you didn't have your much vaunted revelations until you were somewhat advanced in years and then became unshakeable in your faith. But even before that, I doubt that the doubts you suffered could compare to mine or to Stone Cold's here. So we have something of a kettle-calling-the-pot-black situation here.
    I don't think I ever said that God was a man or woman in the sky. I mean, I did, but that was years ago man.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Himster,

    What you have just related is the very reason that Jesus said that " A man must be born again of the Spirit of God if he or she is to enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Or as Paul says, " A true Jew is not one outwardly, rather one who has been circumcised in the heart." These are my words but essentially what the Bible teaches. While it is true that in any denomination Catholic or Protestant children are subjected to what their elders teach them and many turn away from that it cannot and does not make any of them Christian because their elders said so.

    So, what do believers actually believe? To begin with they believe that God made all things in the six days He said He did, resting on the seventh. They believe that at the fall of man God predicted the coming of Jesus Christ to save many from their sin that Adam brought about. They believe that Mary actually had an immaculate conception without the help of man the result being Jesus Christ already predicted by God. They believe that Jesus did die on a cross shedding His blood that many might be saved according to the prophecy. They believe that He died on that cross and after being in the grave three days He rose again and now awaits to return to judge all things. So, when a Baptist like me gets baptised it is a sign by me of rising as He did from the grave and therefore me announcing to the world that I now follow Him but only after being born again of the Spirit of God which Jesus demanded must happen.

    Therefore what do we find in the so-called churches of today? We find babies being Christened, sprinkled with water and declared to be Christian without them having any knowledge of their sin nor any chance of revoking their sin to bring about rebirth through Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The thing is that they can spend their whole lives in a system and yet never know nor hear that they must be born again to enter eternal life. Believe it or not I was in my twenties when I had to get sprinkled so that my firstborn in my previous marriage could get sprinkled and be declared Christian and it's all wrong. Jesus made a line in the sand as it were when He told the Pharisee that there is only one way to eternal life, the alternative being too dreadful to contemplate.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Basics,

    Technically a mystical experience in the true sense trancends the need for belief/disbelief. You already experienced God in some way, thus making it obvious, and faith becomes redundant. Such things are not for everybody, though. Often end up in small circles, and leaves the Ecclesiastical class feeling nervous/uneasy.

    Meanwhile the more mainstream exoteric way of speaking both moves masses better and is politically cozier.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Basics,

    Technically a mystical experience in the true sense trancends the need for belief/disbelief. You already experienced God in some way, thus making it obvious, and faith becomes redundant. Such things are not for everybody, though. Often end up in small circles, and leaves the Ecclesiastical class feeling nervous/uneasy.

    Meanwhile the more mainstream exoteric way of speaking both moves masses better and is politically cozier.
    fkizz,

    I think you'll find in the Scriptures that once a person belongs to God the faith that Jesus endowed to them becomes the target for all that's evil meaning that faith is always being tested. One needs more and more faith as one grows in Christ not less. Jesus supplies that through the Holy Spirit and does so in abundance the more one asks for it.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    So, what do believers actually believe? To begin with they believe that God made all things in the six days He said He did
    So any Christian who doesn't believe in YEC isn't a true Christian? Really? Get off your high horse, man. Just because not everybody subscribes to your extremely obscure and odd version of Christianity doesn't make them un-believers--seriously, who made you judge and jury on who is a true Christian or not?

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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Cold Shogun Panther View Post
    Would you guys think I am a fence sitter for being Agnostic?...
    Yes. I am an agnostic and aware of the intellectual cowardice of the position, as well as its arrogance.

    Human reason is frail, and given our brief tiny existence, it makes sense to be overawed by the universe. I respect the faith of others, I think it gives them strength.

    I recognise my own near-total ignorance and can't bring myself self to "bow down to a shadow", an unknown possible deity. I accept others sincerely experience "religious revelations" but I put them own to malfunctioning software. Its the height of arrogance to denigrate other's beliefs in this wayso I mostly keep quiet about this.

    Somewhat contrarily I also indulge other shared assumptions like "the world will continue to exist tomorrow and we have a shared mutually intelligible existence" for which there's about as much supporting evidence as the Eden narrative. So in adopting agnosticism I have rejected certain aspects of human tradition while somewhat arbitrarily accepting others.

    I persuaded by early Buddhist nihilist/pessimistic agnosticism, and the myriad religious tradition that now adhere to this austere agnostic dissuade me from respecting religion too much, even esoteric/philosophic ones.
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