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Thread: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

  1. #41
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    It appears that all things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. The trans situation here is evidently the most precise demonstration of this.
    It follows then that reasoned discussion is utterly impossible, all is mere power play. Mutual and deliberate misunderstanding, coupled with contempt becomes the norm. In a world where all is framed as "us versus them" there is no room left for the individual, without the individual there is no morality and absolutely no chance for liberalism. It is just a game with no winners in the end.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  2. #42

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Are you postmodernist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Gilligan
    I can't think of a movie where I like it that the bad guy gets dumb, because it's like I want the bad guy to be smart smart smart, so the good guy has to be even smarter!
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  3. #43
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Are you postmodernist?
    Nah, I'm completely 100% accurate, objective, verifiable and correct in all of my beliefs and assertions. It is everyone else who are postmodernist, ruled by trends rather than facts.
    That being said: What is truth?
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  4. #44

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    That being said: What is truth?
    That Jesus Christ is your Lord and saviour. Questions?

  5. #45
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    That Jesus Christ is your Lord and saviour. Questions?
    Is it bad that I feel a strong need to wash my hands now?

    But seriously, establishing as generally acceptable epistemological schema might go a long way to establishing a realm of mutual understanding, which would be at least preferable to the current situation surrounding this topic.
    Last edited by Himster; April 16, 2019 at 09:14 AM.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  6. #46

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Is it bad that I feel a strong need to wash my hands now?

    But seriously, establishing as generally acceptable epistemological schema might go a long way to establishing a realm of mutual understanding, which would be at least preferable to the current situation surrounding this topic.
    The secular commandments:

    1. Thou shalt not suffer an authoritarian to live.

  7. #47
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The secular commandments:

    1. Thou shalt not suffer an authoritarian to live.
    There is no one set of secular commandments. Also, very few are actually secular. In the western tradition, we get our notion of the law for instance, from the Romans and we maintain that same sense of the transcendent or at least reverence that is absent in other traditions. In Asia there is a less established notion of separation of church and state, their laws and the way of heaven are intertribally intertwined to the point that it is beneficial to the state and common for accused murderers for example to admit to crimes, for the betterment of the state, even if they're innocent.

    How the did I get to this topic?

    We were talking about dickless dudes beating the crap out of women or an oppressed minority receiving equal treatment in the field of competitive sport for the first time. Isn't strange how the same topic can be framed in such radically opposing terms?
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  8. #48

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    There is no one set of secular commandments. Also, very few are actually secular. In the western tradition, we get our notion of the law for instance, from the Romans and we maintain that same sense of the transcendent or at least reverence that is absent in other traditions. In Asia there is a less established notion of separation of church and state, their laws and the way of heaven are intertribally intertwined to the point that it is beneficial to the state and common for accused murderers for example to admit to crimes, for the betterment of the state, even if they're innocent.

    How the did I get to this topic?

    We were talking about dickless dudes beating the crap out of women or an oppressed minority receiving equal treatment in the field of competitive sport for the first time. Isn't strange how the same topic can be framed in such radically opposing terms?
    I was trying to craft a tongue-in-cheek set of secular commandments which we could use as a starting point for an "epistemological schema" which could be universally accepted.

  9. #49
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I was trying to craft a tongue-in-cheek set of secular commandments which we could use as a starting point for an "epistemological schema" which could be universally accepted.
    Ok, cool. Good thinking.

    1:
    Thou shalt not suffer an authoritarian to live
    2: The centre of the observable universe is the individual
    3: The dictum 'cogito ergo sum' must be the premise for all knowledge
    4: How do we escape solipsism?
    Maybe that's going too basic?
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  10. #50

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Ok, cool. Good thinking.

    1:
    Thou shalt not suffer an authoritarian to live
    2: The centre of the observable universe is the individual
    3: The dictum 'cogito ergo sum' must be the premise for all knowledge
    4: How do we escape solipsism?
    Maybe that's going too basic?
    Can a question really be considered a commandment?

  11. #51
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Yup. What if men can even become "women" who are better than women. lol

    As always, those things have to be solved technologically. Yes to the artificial uterus. Yes to Gattaca.

  12. #52
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    https://summit.news/2019/04/30/trans...EzmiCwHh4b1jeQ


    Transsexual wins 9 out of 9 powerlifting events and set four world records. His records are not close to male world records but as a biological man, the athlete was able to breeze through the competition because men are much much stronger than women.

    Many female athletes expressed their disappointment as females are being pushed to the sidelines of female sports.
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  13. #53
    Mithradates's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Caster Semenya: Olympic 800m champion loses appeal against IAAF testosterone rules

    Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.
    More or less the same issue, it was about time.

    The United Nations Human Rights Council has called the plans "unnecessary, harmful and humiliating" and South Africa's sports minister called them a "human rights violation".
    "unnecessary" yeah, lol at them

  14. #54
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    If this person is intersex (which is what Disorders of Sexual Development - DSD - is) then it’s difficult to see how they would fit into a category for sport. It has been suggested that legally a third gender neutral category in athhletics would have to have been introduced by the IAAF had Semenya lost the case.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/athletics/48114137
    Sport has traditionally been divided into male and female categories, but Semenya's case and the science it has brought to the fore shows it may be an artificially binary distinction.

    It had been suggested
    that, had the verdict gone against the IAAF, athletics might have introduced an 'open' category that men and women could, in theory, compete in side by side, and a 'protected' category based on hormone levels, rather than gender.
    I thought this was also interesting. Someone with male chromosomes being allowed to compete against women.

    During the early 1990s, Spanish hurdler Maria Jose Martinez-Patino successfully fought against a ban imposed after she was discovered to have XY chromosomes typically seen in men.
    The current rules on testosterone were only introduced in 2018 to deal with transexual athletes. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/43995246
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  15. #55

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    If this person is intersex (which is what Disorders of Sexual Development - DSD - is) then it’s difficult to see how they would fit into a category for sport. It has been suggested that legally a third gender neutral category in athhletics would have to have been introduced by the IAAF had Semenya lost the case.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/athletics/48114137


    I thought this was also interesting. Someone with male chromosomes being allowed to compete against women.



    The current rules on testosterone were only introduced in 2018 to deal with transexual athletes. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/43995246
    Heh, hadn't even seen those articles, but basically called it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    So you're telling me that sports organisations, which are already reserving the right to exclude athletes from competitions for a variety of reasons, are monitoring the athletes body chemistry including hormone levels closely, and already do prohibit them from partaking if they take certain medicine, including hormones, or have hormone levels above certain thresholds, can't make additional rules or even simply add to the existing list that would effectively bar transpersons from participating?
    I have to say though... It'd've been hilarious if Semenya had won that case. Not only does she look more manly than most men do (I wouldn't want to get into a bar fight with her - imagine how some old judges must have seen her), the regulations called for a max testosterone level of 5 nmol/L... which is still more than twice the max level biological women can expect... And she fought that?!?!!!!!

    The money-quote is ascribed to an expert from HER team of experts:
    Tucker, who was part of her team of experts at Cas, believes she will run the 800m around seven seconds slower if she reduces her testosterone – essentially turning her from a world beater into an also-ran.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Gilligan
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  16. #56
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Now the IAAF feels it is necessary to regulate T levels to compete as a woman. There is a danger here. How many measures will now be introduced and thus needing medication to regulate to keep women competitive? And when does the same fiddling with hormonal factors take place in the realm of male competition?

    The Semenya verdict is going to be a can of worms in the future. The IAAF should have never made a such a ruling as to mandate medication to regulate abnormal features.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Now the IAAF feels it is necessary to regulate T levels to compete as a woman. There is a danger here. How many measures will now be introduced and thus needing medication to regulate to keep women competitive? And when does the same fiddling with hormonal factors take place in the realm of male competition?

    The Semenya verdict is going to be a can of worms in the future. The IAAF should have never made a such a ruling as to mandate medication to regulate abnormal features.
    I'm going to quote myself here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    So you're telling me that sports organisations, which are already reserving the right to exclude athletes from competitions for a variety of reasons, are monitoring the athletes body chemistry including hormone levels closely, and already do prohibit them from partaking if they take certain medicine, including hormones, or have hormone levels above certain thresholds, can't make additional rules or even simply add to the existing list that would effectively bar transpersons from participating?
    There's no can of worms to open here. There's already tons and tons of regulations in place when it comes to human body chemistry in sports. This includes testosterone, and even for men.
    The medical evidence is clear, that it gives you an advantage in your life. A medical expert who was otherwise arguing for Semenya against the new limit, said:
    Tucker, who was part of her team of experts at Cas, believes she will run the 800m around seven seconds slower if she reduces her testosterone – essentially turning her from a world beater into an also-ran.
    Exogenous intake of androgens are already banned from sports, and you'll be punished as a doper if you do it.

    Endogenous levels of testosterone in women ranges between 0.12 to 1.79 nmol/L, in men it's 7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L.
    The 5 nmol/L limit is still much closer to the male range than to the female, and more than twice the level a natural woman can hope for.
    If Semenya were to barely abide by the rules (which to be fair, she's likely to do if she wants to continue her career), she'll still have more than twice the testosterone levels of her competitors!
    When the new rule gives you such an advantage, that gives you a really bad spot to argue from.

    So the regulation is not only fair, but Semenya's side was arguing inconsistently:
    Almost all scientists agree that testosterone is a key factor as to why elite men are typically around 10-12% faster and stronger than women. However Semenya’s team have argued DSD women with high testosterone may not get the same performance benefits from the hormone because their bodies do not convert the testosterone into a fully active form.
    On the other hand, if Semenya had won the court case, that would have very likely spelt the end of female sports!

    Since giving biological females a protected space to compete in would've essentially been banned, it would have likely forced the IAAF to end all gender division and instead implementing a two or three tier system which, much like heavy-weight and light-weight fights in boxing, would've divided the athletes pool based on their testosterone levels regardless.

    So whilst the male space would've stayed safe regardless (we're far more physically capable), the female one would've lost the right to call itself that. And Semenya would've been out/forced to lower her testosterone levels regardless.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Now the IAAF feels it is necessary to regulate T levels to compete as a woman. There is a danger here. How many measures will now be introduced and thus needing medication to regulate to keep women competitive? And when does the same fiddling with hormonal factors take place in the realm of male competition?

    The Semenya verdict is going to be a can of worms in the future. The IAAF should have never made a such a ruling as to mandate medication to regulate abnormal features.
    No medication needed. Just establish different competitive classes based on Testosterone levels, kind of like weight classes in boxing. I believe this was even suggested earlier in the thread.

  19. #59
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    @Cookiegod: I may be misunderstanding your recent post. Are you saying that mandating medication to control hormones is no different from doping? Doping is illegal by the federation rules. The mandated medication is not simply legal but required under the federation rules. There is a huge difference between voluntary and involuntary regarding all rules of behavior. Not just the rules involved here.

    Yes there are risks to the competition of classing and separating women from men. I cannot believe that Seymenea's case if she had one would have been the straw to break the federations back though. Her condition is incredibly rare and should not be equated to sex change by chemistry or self identification issues that seem to blur the politicians eyes.

  20. #60
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Just out of interest what do you call a man converted to a female? Would Ma-fe be appropriate? What do you call a female converted to a man? A Fe-ma? I mean transgender seems a bit tacky.

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