[Decision] Small & Medium Award for Modders

[Lifthrasir]

Or may be that' the curia that needs to change towards the members of the site
But that's another debate.
The point here is to reward modders on a more "regular" basis with the hope that they also remain active on this site. That way, it may also drag more new modders here.
I can't say if this will work but for sure, doing nothing won't.

[Gigantus]

I have only skimmed over the whole thread so don't crucify me: while I am all for acknowledging minor and larger work I have strong reservation about the criteria. Giving out 'minor' rewards based on unquantifiable criteria (distinction?) doesn't make sense.

Keep it simple, base it on substance - number of tutorials, released minor\major mods etc. I just had a guy that was looking in vain for a music mod and didn't want to make and release one himself because of 'rejection' concerns. After a nudge into the right direction he just uploaded it into TWC's download section. Giving a person like that a 'stripe' will probably go along way. Or result in a flood of micro mods - who knows?

[z3n]

I have only skimmed over the whole thread so don't crucify me: while I am all for acknowledging minor and larger work I have strong reservation about the criteria. Giving out 'minor' rewards based on unquantifiable criteria (distinction?) doesn't make sense.

Keep it simple, base it on substance - number of tutorials, released minor\major mods etc. I just had a guy that was looking in vain for a music mod and didn't want to make and release one himself because of 'rejection' concerns. After a nudge into the right direction he just uploaded it into TWC's download section. Giving a person like that a 'stripe' will probably go along way. Or result in a flood of micro mods - who knows?

Fair enough, making a more distinct criteria for that small award is a good idea.

I will think something up over the next few hours (bit busy) but I will get to it by the end of the day.

[StealthFox]

Fair enough, making a more distinct criteria for that small award is a good idea.

I will think something up over the next few hours (bit busy) but I will get to it by the end of the day.

You had previously requested it to move to vote. Sounds like you want to revise the proposal. Shall I wait to move it then?

[z3n]

Yep no more vote for now, I better revise it just to make it clearer. Thanks.

[z3n]

So the updated section for the small award would be as follows.

Awarded by the Curia for one or more of the following: creating a tutorial, a minor mod involving at minimum a single modding section (units, scripting, mapping, animations, sounds, media) of work estimated to have taken more than 5 hours or a remarkable act that benefits TWC modding community.

As I said in the OP, this text is definitely open to any changes. So if anybody has thoughts about it, now's the time.

Specifically the time requirement, not too sure about including it or not including it. I'd rather have it recognize the acts Anthonius mentioned where it's actual content creation while being nontrivial.


Whereas what I mean by trivial would be "Ceasefire" in the diplomatic screen is now changed to "Ceasefire Agreement" , isn't my change amazing? When that takes seconds to do at a time... It's a little trivial.

Initially I thought about it being an hour, but then changed my mind to about 5 hours. Since that's the amount of time it takes to essentially change the entirety of a mods EDU to a new type of stat behavior by hand. So it seems kinda fair, it's nontrivial and significant in my opinion.

About the same amount of time it would take to learn how to do an animation and what tool to do it in, then make it while learning along the way.

Or heck, even creating a script for the first time. Or a unit, etc etc.

[PikeStance]

Yeah, but Artifex is the basic award atm, which you get instead of citizen/civitate as modder in the way of patronization.
And those patronization thing is some kind of nerdy.
@Flinn: Yeah i knew those awards, at least i vote regularily in the rome II category, but it honors more the already popular and established modders. The committee choice is a nice and good idea for smaller ones.

Artifex is citizenship except it is chosen by the member who contributed in the area of modding.

Citizenship was originally given to by the committee. Citizens complained that members were being left out and they gradually ease the requirement which led directly to the patronization system.

So the updated section for the small award would be as follows.
As I said in the OP, this text is definitely open to any changes. So if anybody has thoughts about it, now's the time.

Specifically the time requirement, not too sure about including it or not including it. I'd rather have it recognize the acts Anthonius mentioned where it's actual content creation while being nontrivial.


Whereas what I mean by trivial would be "Ceasefire" in the diplomatic screen is now changed to "Ceasefire Agreement" , isn't my change amazing? When that takes seconds to do at a time... It's a little trivial.

Initially I thought about it being an hour, but then changed my mind to about 5 hours. Since that's the amount of time it takes to essentially change the entirety of a mods EDU to a new type of stat behavior by hand. So it seems kinda fair, it's nontrivial and significant in my opinion.

About the same amount of time it would take to learn how to do an animation and what tool to do it in, then make it while learning along the way.

Or heck, even creating a script for the first time. Or a unit, etc etc.

This new iteration is conflicting with what I have developed and discussed with you before. This proposal conflicts with it.

5 hours is absolutely nothing. I have spent 10x that amount of time testing just one variable with my battle mechanic.

[Gigantus]

I can agree to that criteria - 5 hours is about what it takes to change something beyond just recolouring a unit's socks or change display text.

The criteria for tutorials may required some thought as well. While the act of sharing knowledge is a laudable one it fails if it isn't comprehensible enough. Example: while an instruction to open descr_strat and copy factions from the unplayable section to the playable section will indeed make all factions playable in M2TW it is unlikely that Joe Average will know how to proceed, starting with finding the file in question.
My point: in light of ever diminishing attention spans and comprehension levels (cynical, I know, but I have a library of examples why I think so) care should be taken that a tutorial contains detailed information (code snippets, screenshots etc) else it simply fails in it's goal to pass on knowledge. And if it fails in that then I don't think it is worthy of encouragement.

The modding staff can also (they got enough on their plate otherwise) help here in encouraging authors to 'flesh out' their articles.

There was mentioning of individual modders within a collective effort (mod teams) not receiving due acknowledgement for their specific work. This is pretty difficult imho other then through prominent mentioning given in the team's credits - in a lot of cases the work is highlighted through other aspects of the mod (what good are my maps without the rest of a mod?).

[z3n]

I can agree to that criteria - 5 hours is about what it takes to change something beyond just recolouring a unit's socks or change display text.

The criteria for tutorials may required some thought as well. While the act of sharing knowledge is a laudable one it fails if it isn't comprehensible enough. Example: while an instruction to open descr_strat and copy factions from the unplayable section to the playable section will indeed make all factions playable in M2TW it is unlikely that Joe Average will know how to proceed, starting with finding the file in question.
My point: in light of ever diminishing attention spans and comprehension levels (cynical, I know, but I have a library of examples why I think so) care should be taken that a tutorial contains detailed information (code snippets, screenshots etc) else it simply fails in it's goal to pass on knowledge. And if it fails in that then I don't think it is worthy of encouragement.

The modding staff can also (they got enough on their plate otherwise) help here in encouraging authors to 'flesh out' their articles.

There was mentioning of individual modders within a collective effort (mod teams) not receiving due acknowledgement for their specific work. This is pretty difficult imho other then through prominent mentioning given in the team's credits - in a lot of cases the work is highlighted through other aspects of the mod (what good are my maps without the rest of a mod?).

Good points again, I actually realized as I wrote that criteria there may be a potential issue with duplicate tutorials as well. I brought that up separately in modding staff chat.

I've seen partial duplicates in the past that simply took a previous tutorial and expanded greatly upon certain aspects, while referring to the older tutorial. So it's not fair to call it a direct duplicate but it may be worth considering in the writing somehow.

Awarded by the Curia for one or more of the following: creating a detailed and original tutorial containing relevant media (screenshots, video, code snippets), releasing a minor mod involving at minimum a single modding section (units, scripting, mapping, animations, sounds, media) of work estimated to have taken more than 5 hours or a remarkable act that benefits TWC modding community.

I'll try to expand upon this a bit but that'll be the current iteration until I think about it some more or receive more feedback.




@Pike

This new iteration is conflicting with what I have developed and discussed with you before. This proposal conflicts with it.

5 hours is absolutely nothing. I have spent 10x that amount of time testing just one variable with my battle mechanic.

I specifically didn't include testing in the criteria because I felt it was more of a 'playing the game' sort of thing rather than content creation. Content creation is really what's being awarded here by the current criteria.

Anybody can "test" a game, but not everyone creates a part of the game. The point is to encourage the people who have put forth the effort to create mod content, spending 5 hours of real work and not testing.

I say that, critically, even though I have done my fair share of testing as well. I just don't think it's directly modding.

Not sure what you mean about the rest.

[Gigantus]

I've seen partial duplicates in the past that simply took a previous tutorial and expanded greatly upon certain aspects, while referring to the older tutorial. So it's not fair to call it a direct duplicate but it may be worth considering in the writing somehow.

I have indulged in that myself (primarily because the original left too many questions unanswered or was too convoluted\simplistic and the original author was no longer available) and I agree that it is difficult to ascertain what is new content and what is 'merely' repackaged for easier understanding unless one is familiar with the topic and both tutorials.
Expanding on aspects of an existing tutorial however would fully fall under what I meant with detailed support and should provide no difficulty to be acceptable for an award.

I specifically didn't include testing in the criteria because I felt it was more of a 'playing the game' sort of thing rather than content creation.

I agree with the testing aspect - it didn't cross my mind that the 5 hours included it, rather the time spend to put together a working code (the 200K lines for EBII's recruit limit script took a wee bit longer ) or model. The timespan mentioned by Pike for me falls under 'tweaking', and it doesn't help much to establish quantifiable minimum requirements, rather the opposite.

[PikeStance]

@Pike


I specifically didn't include testing in the criteria because I felt it was more of a 'playing the game' sort of thing rather than content creation. Content creation is really what's being awarded here by the current criteria.

Anybody can "test" a game, but not everyone creates a part of the game. The point is to encourage the people who have put forth the effort to create mod content, spending 5 hours of real work and not testing.

Not sure what you mean about the rest.

I wasn't referring to alpha or beta testing. I was referring to modding. It isn't as simple as opening a pack file with PFM changing a table variable and assuming it is what you expected will happen. If you are changing just one variable may be some degree of prediction is possible but anything worth noting would involve more than that.

To give a real example, changing the spacing of units can take at least an hour. That is just one variable (actually four/ tight horizontal and vertical and loose horizontal and vertical). The number of men per unit is also very simple to do and would require about an hour depending on the number of units. It is naive to simply release the game with those two variables without testing the changes yourself. The AI may not be able to handle a larger than the ultra size unit.

Anyway, these simple modding stuff can still be awarded citizenship (Artifex). The other proposal idea actually does a better job of recognizing the skills of the modder than this award would do. Moreover, outside of the few modders that will be awarded if passed, this award would gradually fall into something hardly ever awarded.

@AntoniusII: What stopped you from proposing the members when they were active?

A better alternative for inactive modders who have fallen between the cracks would be to establish a "Wall of Fame." It would have the name along with the accomplishments. This is something that the Modding Staff can help set up. This is probably something that can set up even for modders who were recognized with an Opifex or Artifex as well. Placing a sticky thread in the general modding forum would be an ideal place.

______________________

Just to be clear; I like the idea of recognizing those that participate and help in the workshops with answering questions and creating resources and tools for modding. That being said, I believe this qualifies as "exceptional" simply because it is an exceptional commitment to the hobby of modding to help those learn and be more efficient and effective modders. Rather than "cheapen" it, I rather give the Opifex to such individuals.

[Leonardo]

A better alternative for inactive modders who have fallen between the cracks would be to establish a "Wall of Fame." It would have the name along with the accomplishments. This is something that the Modding Staff can help set up. This is probably something that can set up even for modders who were recognized with an Opifex or Artifex as well. Placing a sticky thread in the general modding forum would be an ideal place.

Having a Wall of Fame set up here is a great idea and that reminds me about what the TES modding community have had on PES for years. Which was called the Hall of Fame.

[Quintus Hortensius Hortalus]

Having a Wall of Fame set up here is a great idea and that reminds me about what the TES modding community have had on PES for years. Which was called the Hall of Fame.

Wall of Fame / Hall of Fame, whatever you call it, I think too it would be a great idea!

[AnthoniusII]

@PikeStance
Lets admit that your modding work is ENORMUS. None can doupt it...The question is not about you or other modders like Gigantus that their work is huge and extensive. The small rank idea is to attact new modders. Some people are talented and get the idea realy fast -espesialy the young ones- and some not. As TWC we must encourange people TO START modding and when someone starts he often needs an extra motive. My motive was to help my fellowship in CBUR and TGC teams and not just wait and make critisim. For some people creating a simple body model was a task of few minutes. For me it was a task of 24 hours. Do we measure how fast someone cteates someting or the same desire to create that something? Fortunatly I had very good teachers that lead me in my 1st steps in what i call Frankestein modding. But others start in total 0 point their attempts. Shoundn't we encourage that? If a child starts a messy body model and we will encourage him/her , give him some early steps advices and a "reward" for his/her finall result (not for the primitive model but his/her desire to use the advices and improve and show that improvement) we may see him/her someday to create something realy unique that will attract more attention to TWC as hosting site. So its not always the "value" of the first attempt...When i tried to learn moddeling there were too many coders and scripters but moddelers were rare. Soon after the situation changed!
As for why i did not nominate the MARKA team , years ago i posted 4 questions why they are not awarded and recieved the answer their are not active.
Unforthunatly i was too late. But allow me to reverse the question...Why all the modders that used their material and created mods they are proud of , never nominated their benefactors?

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Hall of Fame is a good idea.

[StealthFox]

Isn't this essentially the same thing as a modding"Hall of Fame"?

[Quintus Hortensius Hortalus]

Isn't this essentially the same thing as a modding"Hall of Fame"?

Partly but as AnthoniusII has explained, several great modders have never been recognized or given Optifex so the Hall of Fame idea was to give modders who have done great things that were never acknowledged a place where this is finally done.

[Leonardo]

Isn't this essentially the same thing as a modding"Hall of Fame"?

No. The Hall of Fame concept is actually the opposite to what the Opifex award is, which requires a citizen to nominate a modder for the Opifex award. The Hall of Fame doesn't need a nomination from a citizen.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

No. The Hall of Fame concept is actually the opposite to what the Opifex award is, which requires a citizen to nominate a modder for the Opifex award. The Hall of Fame doesn't need a nomination from a citizen.

Indeed

[PikeStance]

@PikeStance
Lets admit that your modding work is ENORMUS. None can doupt it...The question is not about you or other modders like Gigantus that their work is huge and extensive. The small rank idea is to attact new modders. Some people are talented and get the idea realy fast -espesialy the young ones- and some not. As TWC we must encourange people TO START modding and when someone starts he often needs an extra motive. My motive was to help my fellowship in CBUR and TGC teams and not just wait and make critisim. For some people creating a simple body model was a task of few minutes. For me it was a task of 24 hours. Do we measure how fast someone cteates someting or the same desire to create that something? Fortunatly I had very good teachers that lead me in my 1st steps in what i call Frankestein modding. But others start in total 0 point their attempts. Shoundn't we encourage that? If a child starts a messy body model and we will encourage him/her , give him some early steps advices and a "reward" for his/her finall result (not for the primitive model but his/her desire to use the advices and improve and show that improvement) we may see him/her someday to create something realy unique that will attract more attention to TWC as hosting site. So its not always the "value" of the first attempt...When i tried to learn moddeling there were too many coders and scripters but moddelers were rare. Soon after the situation changed!
As for why i did not nominate the MARKA team , years ago i posted 4 questions why they are not awarded and recieved the answer their are not active.
Unforthunatly i was too late. But allow me to reverse the question...Why all the modders that used their material and created mods they are proud of , never nominated their benefactors?

The Artifex already serves that purpose. it is befuddling that anyone would refuse citizenship since the point of it is to recognize a model member of the site.
As I stated, resource, tools, and other guide creators would get a "yes' vote from me for Opifex. Any Artifex that vote otherwise would truly be befuddling. I do not want an award that would undermine devalue such devotion to something less than an Opifex. I also would not want to undermine the Artifex.

Isn't this essentially the same thing as a modding"Hall of Fame"?

The point is to recognize those that have contributed greatly, but for whatever reason did not get recognized by the Opifex. The Wall of Fame would satisfy that gap.