Roman campaign: Marian reforms triggers

[Septentrionalis]

I tried looking for information on how the Marian reforms trigger, but could not find a definitive answer on the latest versions (2.3 / 2.35). Is it so that the highest levels of agricultural development in all of Italy plus a suitable leader is needed, and if those conditions are not met, it happens anyway when it did historically?

My motivation for asking is that I am trying to play my game without upgrading agriculture past a certain level, and I am concerned if the reforms then take place at all. The reason for doing so is that I try to see how far I can do without the negative consequences of slave-operated plantations. Perhaps the in-game penalty is not so high anyway, but I am trying to imagine an alternative history in which some form of Roman peasantry remained.

For further discussion, so far (~200 BC) it seems that managing starvation can be done without upgrading farms much. Also, population growth seems to be very manageable that way. Run-off population growth was one of the main problems I had with Rome: Total War (nearly broke the game for me), and I have been trying to avoid it as much as possible. Probably at the expense of my finances in the current campaign, in which I am often unable to achieve things because of lacking funds. Then again, most of my settlements are happy and the family members are generally getting good traits.

[Roma_Victrix]

You can find the thread about it here, from the EB Gameplay Guides and AARs sub-forum. I'll even quote it for you:

Marian Reform

After turn 500 (147BC) Rome needs to have constructed Latifundae (farms_seven) in at least six of the seven core Italian provinces. They then need an FM with the Reformator trait.

Failing this, they will automatically occur on turn 661 (107BC).

So basically you'd have to wait until turn 661 to get it if you fail to build the highest tier farms, but even then you need a general who randomly has the Reformator trait to get it between turn 500 and 600.

[Roma_Victrix]

I wonder, is there anything you can do to strongly encourage one of your generals to develop the Reformator trait? Like building academies or something?

[QuintusSertorius]

I wonder, is there anything you can do to strongly encourage one of your generals to develop the Reformator trait? Like building academies or something?

Look at the triggers for the trait in the EDCT.

[cecxla]

I had 2 or 3 Consuls with Sharp/Charismatic/vigorous+Popularis trait and they didn't get the reformator trait, is getting the trait chance-based or am I missing something?
Also, I wonder: if by 147BC I don't meet the requirements, does the reform still get triggered if I meet the requirement at any point before 107 and after 147 or do you have to have the trait by 147?

[Rosbjerg]

It's automatic by turn 661, even if you have constructed no farms and have no FM with the trait.
It's sort of a backup plan

Even says so in the campaign script:

if I_TurnNumber > 660 ;;; If there is 107 BC when Marian reforms happened IRL...
and I_EventCounter ecPolybianEra > 0 ;;; ...and reforms had not happened already...
set_event_counter ecPolybianEra 0 ;;; ...trigger the reforms as fall-back for AI and unlucky player.

[QuintusSertorius]

I would note in the patch, I've removed the automatic, time-based trigger for AI-Rome. Complete changes of roster aren't great for the AI anyway, and they shouldn't be a foregone conclusion.

[Roma_Victrix]

Look at the triggers for the trait in the EDCT.

Wow. So, I finally got the Marian reforms and it is...so awesome. Finally got a general who had all the right traits and became consul.

So not only can I recruit Antesignani spearmen throughout Italy, even in my provincial government at Bagiennorum (Liguria), but I can recruit Equites Auxilium cavalry and Cohors Reformata heavy legionary infantry in every province, although the latter are only available after building a colony (and that takes about 8 turns, but the cost is reasonable). In addition to all of that, I can recruit Thorakitai in provincial governments within Greek territories, Drutonedammoi or Nedes Nesamoi heavy spearmen in Celtic territories, and even heavy Libyan Swordsmen in Carthaginian territories that have provincial governments instead of allied ones. That's so freaking cool!

[QuintusSertorius]

The post-Marian-only recruitment of the Provinciae is something of a reward for the player who's managed to stick with their game for so long.

[Septentrionalis]

Thank you for your help, guys, and sorry for the late display of gratitude. I have been busier than a cop in a donut shop, and I also made the mistake of trying out Fallout 4. Now I have to babysit all those helpless settlers there, which has become a greater threat to the advancement of my EBII dominion than any barbarian faction so far.

Maybe it will be saved by the same "corrupt all save games" bug that saved me from seeing the endgame of Fallout New Vegas after pouring a few hundred hours into it.

[Camcolit]

I would note in the patch, I've removed the automatic, time-based trigger for AI-Rome. Complete changes of roster aren't great for the AI anyway, and they shouldn't be a foregone conclusion.

Is this still the case for the AI? And here's me at turn 550 looking forward to fighting Marian legions for the whole game .

I don't think the AI would ever be able to fulfill the player requirements.

[Sarkiss]

Is this still the case for the AI? And here's me at turn 550 looking forward to fighting Marian legions for the whole game .

I don't think the AI would ever be able to fulfill the player requirements.

i'd have to agree with this. Rome's already weak and never really expands and 'comes to you', so when you go to them and try to replay Roman wars in late game not seeing Marian legions is a disappointment. so yeah, double trouble for Rome - not expanding nor reforming.
i dont know if it is possible in M2TW, but giving AI-Rome advantage in autoresolve vs other factions, like in DeI, would go some way to strengthen Rome imho.

[Sint]

Rome's already weak and never really expands and 'comes to you',

The game starts long before Rome really started to rapidly expand it would be strange if they just expanded like crazy on turn 1.But I agree that they should get the reforms at some point even if they don't fulfil the player conditions.

[Camcolit]

The Romans expanded ok-ish in my last game. Not at a historical rate but they took almost all of Gaul, Illyria and a bit of Iberia. They were, at least, the largest AI empire in the game by turn 500. I haven't researched it but just anecdotally they seem to do very little in my games until they get the Polybian reforms, then do pretty well. However sometimes they find themselves in a multi-front war before they are established and don't tend to recover, but this is true of other factions. Pahlava for instance almost always gets wiped out. It's hard to balance historically strong empires who start out in a rather precarious position in gameplay terms.

I do think the Roman AI should get the reforms automatically. This approach seems to be inconsistent with other reforms in the game which are simplified for the AI and with good reason. The 'no foregone conclusion' rationale is not applied in other cases. (plus the AI gets bottlenecked at 'large town' for city growth so the player requirements are completely beyond the AI, making it a foregone conclusion they will never get Marian legions).

[Jervaj]

The game starts long before Rome really started to rapidly expand it would be strange if they just expanded like crazy on turn 1.But I agree that they should get the reforms at some point even if they don't fulfil the player conditions.

I mean...Rome was already steadily expanding. Historically they should be getting hold of souther italy pretty quickly in the game. A bit later expand onto Sicily and Corsica Sardinia during/after First Punic war. But yeah it wasnt until around and during the Second Punic War when they really started to explode expansion wise around the med.

[Arshak I]

I don't think the AI would ever be able to fulfill the player requirements.

This. 90% of games you're not even gonna see Roman Marian units. Odd design decision to remove the automatic trigger.

[QuintusSertorius]

That was almost two years ago. In the current build, it requires AI Rome to exist for the date-based trigger to happen. The reform doesn't automatically trigger if the faction is dead.

[Arshak I]

That was almost two years ago. In the current build, it requires AI Rome to exist for the date-based trigger to happen. The reform doesn't automatically trigger if the faction is dead.

Fair play.

[Camcolit]

Well you said this 2 years ago...

I would note in the patch, I've removed the automatic, time-based trigger for AI-Rome. Complete changes of roster aren't great for the AI anyway, and they shouldn't be a foregone conclusion.

which is why I asked if this was still the same now. Seems reasonable to ask instead of assuming it has been changed back because it was changed two years ago.

[QuintusSertorius]

This. 90% of games you're not even gonna see Roman Marian units. Odd design decision to remove the automatic trigger.

The bigger concern was all the Italic units arbitrarily vanishing in a game where AI-Rome might have been wiped out hundreds of turns ago.