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Thread: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

  1. #161

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    You don't even know what the message was. You have no interest or knowledge of history just a rabid anti-american bias.
    Ok, so what was the message, "Don't mess with our empire or else next time it won't just be your capital"?

    And no, if I'm wrong I want to be corrected.

  2. #162
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Yeah, I know that, my question is, why hasn't the world made you loose so badly somebody can dictate terms to you?

    In fact, I'm going to ask that tomorrow maybe.
    Because there is no 'World' there a a world full of different polities (with citizens of different views) with different interests and cares and beliefs and desires. For example Israel is surrounded by a lot of nations that rather don't like it a few that still proclaim it should be removed. Also a lot nations don't really care about Israel they are not major trading parents etc. Israel benefits very much from the fact the US seems to generally consider it the 51st state. So why would they join the 'World' to punish the US for whatever? As I pointed out elsewhere whatever happened back in the Vietnam war or WW2 is long gone. Both Vietnam and Japan today would I think not like to find themselves in a Pacific region dominated by China with no other state to balance its ambitions. Although maybe you believe the 'World' would deal with that as well. The simple fact is most people in the world are apathetic to anything but their local interests. Did the 'World' go in with guns blazing to stop genocide in Rwanda?

    I have tried to use older historical examples. The world does not punish nations until they are defeated or decline into third rate status and then read not world but just victors. The 'World' never punished any nation in Europe for African slavery.

    And of course the other point is a reason the major powers are sitting on nuclear arms stockpiles - it makes a war or war like diplomacy sort of unappetizing for your enemies. Why do you think Russia has a persistent fit over US ABM tech deployments and research because if the US could really pull it off the Ukraine would be in NATO.
    Last edited by conon394; February 23, 2019 at 11:36 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #163
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    False, the german and japanese air forces did not have a doctrine of strategic bombardment or the large multi-engined bombers to execute such a policy.
    Also hasn't your kindergarten teacher ever told you that something wrong doesn't become right, because someone else started it?
    Regardless of Japanese or German doctrine their bombing by aircraft killed hundreds of thousands. Germans demonstrated through the Blitz and in Poland and the Netherlands you don't needed multi-engined bombers to kill tens of thousands of people.

    I addressed directly through sources. You keep failing to reply to my posts or post really that would support all of the bad claims you keep making.

  4. #164
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley_Quinn View Post
    Bush junior is Claudius, Trump is now Caligula, but could become Nero.^^
    But that means we could still get a Nerva–Antonine dynasty quality run of presidents...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #165
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Yeah, if you drop your two party dynasties, thats possible.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  6. #166

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just answer the question View Post
    Ok, so what was the message, "Don't mess with our empire or else next time it won't just be your capital"?

    And no, if I'm wrong I want to be corrected.
    Britain was in no position and had no desire to go after America.

    The war of 1812 was partly America trying to declare itself a player and earn some international respect. Britain was not taking them seriously, attacking ships under American flags (The French and privateers where sailing under American flags to try and avoid the Royal Navy) and taking American seamen under impressment as we didn't recognise them formaly as anything more than rebels anyway. The British where also stirring up trouble with the natives against the Americans.

    The British where tied down fighting Napoleon so the Americans attacked Canada and engaged in attacks on the British shipping along our coast.

    Long story short, we turned out to be less extended and tied down than the yanks thought, burned down the white house and had a little chat. America got the international recognition and respect they wanted and learned that if they wanted to sit at the big boy's table they had to learn that the big boys had big teeth.

    America became more or less isolationist until they got their own back and where able to take advantage of Britain's losses after both world wars and take our place.

  7. #167

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    If Napoleon had died in eighteen fourteen, the British might have been more inclined to transfer the Napoleonic veteran regiments to the American theatre; whether Wellington was in the mood to go with them, considering the delights of Vienna, might be another issue.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  8. #168
    Mayer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    I addressed directly through sources. You keep failing to reply to my posts or post really that would support all of the bad claims you keep making.
    Wikipedia is not a scientific source, name a single credible source for your claim that Germany bombed 1/2 million people and we'll talk.
    HATE SPEECH ISN'T REAL

  9. #169

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Wikipedia is not a scientific source, name a single credible source for your claim that Germany bombed 1/2 million people and we'll talk.


    • Corum, James. (2007). The Luftwaffe: The Operational Air War, 1918–1940. University of Kansas Press. ISBN 0-7006-0836-2
    • Corum, James S. (2013). "The Luftwaffe's Campaigns in Poland and the West 1939–1940: A Case Study of Handling Innovation in Wartime". Security and Defence Quarterly (1): 158–189. doi:10.5604/23008741.1191778 (inactive 2018-05-29).
    • Garrett, Stephen (1993). Ethics and Airpower in World War II. New York: St. Martin's Press. ISBN 978-0-312-08683-1.
    • Grayling, A. C. (2006). Among the Dead Cities. London: Bloomsbury. ISBN 978-0-7475-7671-6.
    • Green, William (1967). War Planes of the Second World War: Bombers. VIII. London: Macdonald.
    • Hall, Cargill (1998). Case Studies in Strategic Bombardment. Air Force History and Museums Program. ISBN 0-16-049781-7.
    • Griehl, Manfred; Dressel, Joachim (1998). Heinkel He 177-277-274. Shrewsbury, England: Airlife Publishing. p. 53.
    • Hallion, Richard P. Decisive Air Power Prior to 1950 USAF History and Museums Program
    • Hooton, E.R (1994). Phoenix Triumphant; The Rise and Rise of the Luftwaffe. London: Arms & Armour Press. ISBN 1-86019-964-X
    • Hooton, E.R (2007). Luftwaffe at War; Blitzkrieg in the West: Volume 2. London: Chevron/Ian Allan. ISBN 978-1-85780-272-6.
    • Hooton, E.R. (2016). War over the Steppes: The air campaigns on the Eastern Front 1941–45. Osprey. ISBN 978-1-47281562
    • Murray, Williamson (1983). Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933–1945. Maxwell AFB: Air University Press. ISBN 978-1-58566-010-0.
    • Overy, Richard J. (1980) The Air War Stein and Day. ISBN 978-1-57488-716
    • Price, Alfred. Kampfflieger -Bombers of the Luftwaffe January 1942-Summer 1943, Volume 3. 2005, Classic Publications. ISBN 978-1-903223-49-9
    • Smith, J. Richard and Creek, Eddie J. (2004). Kampflieger. Vol. 2.: Bombers of the Luftwaffe July 1940 – December 1941. Classic Publications. ISBN 978-1-903223-42-0
    • Smith, J. Richard and Creek, Eddie J. (2004). Kampflieger. Vol. 2.: Bombers of the Luftwaffe July 1940 – December 1941. Classic Publications. ISBN 978-1-903223-43-7
    • Speidel, Wilhelm (1956). The Luftwaffe in the Polish Campaign of 1939. Montgomery, Alabama: Air Force Historical Research Agency. Archived from the original on 27 May 2013.
    Last edited by 95thrifleman; February 24, 2019 at 02:40 AM.

  10. #170

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Long story short, we turned out to be less extended and tied down than the yanks thought, burned down the white house and had a little chat.......
    So why didn't you just burned down everything?

  11. #171

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just answer the question View Post
    So why didn't you just burned down everything?
    Because we didn't have to

  12. #172

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Because we didn't have to
    Yes but you could have turned the world into a better place?

  13. #173
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    So why didn't you just burned down everything?
    It was partially a symbolic retribution for US action in York Canada. The events in Upstate New York and on the Great lakes more proved decisive. The British at the Chesapeake force was simply not in a position to do more than symbolic hurt. DC was rather undefended. The British failed to take Baltimore for example with the same force. I would note the fact that the local militia collapsed in front of DC. That must have made Hamilton smile in his grave since Jefferson and Madison had so railed against a standing army the virtue of militias. It is perhaps notable neither Madison nor Jefferson ever had the pleasure of watching militia fail against regulars in the rebellion.

    Yes but you could have turned the world into a better place?
    You do realize the UK could not conquer the US at that point except with a cost so high they were very unlikely to pay it especially after the Napoleonic wars and for what a massive garrison option in perpetuity. Besides it looks a little more lonely in WW2 w/o the US.

    I still am waiting for some kind of logical and rational ranking of Great powers over the last 500 years to sustain your simple unsubstantiated bile. Nor have you attempted any list of benefits or positive contributions so to see where the scales stand.

    Why was it OK for the UK to ignore the Bengal Famine after all it killed more people that bombs. Again once you have eliminated the US do have a further check list?
    Last edited by conon394; February 24, 2019 at 03:51 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #174
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Wikipedia is not a scientific source, name a single credible source for your claim that Germany bombed 1/2 million people and we'll talk.
    You used Wikipedia as a source a earlier so it must be reliable if you can use it. It's also cited with sources as you know. You simply just want to deny a fact because it makes the Allies look less bad if the Germans and Japanese did it too.

    The Rotterdam and London Blitz proves you wrong enough.

    http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-right...n-world-war-ii

    Funny enough it was the Germans during the Spanish Civil War who started targetting civilians in the assault on Gurenica.

  15. #175

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Because we didn't have to
    Also, I noticed that in the first few threads you were pretty angry about them. I got the impression that you hated them as much as Mayer did and would support me in anything but now you are defending them?

    Strange.

    Well, I guess birds of a feather flock together........

    Also:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPpeJPd6rwg

  16. #176
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Umm you did note the playing second fiddle bit at the start? Nobody who used to place first chair is going not whinge at loosing the spot. The first nation to come from Barbarians? See as it was found by Englishmen the statement is demonstrably false since if true the UK was first.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #177

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Germans are a mixed bag.

    They bombed London by accident, and that was part of the reason they lost the Battle of Britain, because Churchill baited them into turning their attention to bombing civilians instead of attritioning the Royal Air Force.

    However, bombing Guernica, Rotterdam, Warsaw, and civilians fleeing along the roads are deliberate military policies and tactics developed by the Luftwaffe, in order to congest the roads and hinder opposing forces trying to use them; the bombing towns part is to get the civilians on those roads.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  18. #178

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Nobody who used to place first chair is going not whinge at loosing the spot.
    I've actually read comments like this, according to them, the world would have been much better under their rule. Most of the world's problems would have been averted or reduced if they continued to rule it till this day.
    Last edited by alhoon; February 24, 2019 at 08:36 PM. Reason: Personal references removed

  19. #179
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just answer the question View Post
    I've actually read comments like this, according to them, the world would have been much better under their rule. Most of the world's problems would have been averted or reduced if they continued to rule it till this day.
    Really I'd be interested to see you make a reasoned argument to that effect. No net drivel allowed. Because you known the UK was munificent - slave trade, opium wars, famine in India, scramble for Africa, Suez crisis, some real delightful map making out of the corpse of the Ottoman Empire, massive abusive use of convict labor, oh and that whole theft of native land thing you like to worry about (re Canada, Australia et al) - total bloody saints -what could go wrong.

    Read comments? I would like to know if you read anything even a review of any source I posted in respect to this thread.
    Last edited by conon394; February 24, 2019 at 08:55 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #180
    Mayer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    • Corum, James. (2007). The Luftwaffe: The Operational Air War, 1918–1940. University of Kansas Press. ISBN 0-7006-0836-2
    • Corum, James S. (2013). "The Luftwaffe's Campaigns in Poland and the West 1939–1940: A Case Study of Handling Innovation in Wartime". Security and Defence Quarterly (1): 158–189. doi:10.5604/23008741.1191778 (inactive 2018-05-29).
    • Garrett, Stephen (1993). Ethics and Airpower in World War II. New York: St. Martin's Press. ISBN 978-0-312-08683-1.
    • Grayling, A. C. (2006). Among the Dead Cities. London: Bloomsbury. ISBN 978-0-7475-7671-6.
    • Green, William (1967). War Planes of the Second World War: Bombers. VIII. London: Macdonald.
    • Hall, Cargill (1998). Case Studies in Strategic Bombardment. Air Force History and Museums Program. ISBN 0-16-049781-7.
    • Griehl, Manfred; Dressel, Joachim (1998). Heinkel He 177-277-274. Shrewsbury, England: Airlife Publishing. p. 53.
    • Hallion, Richard P. Decisive Air Power Prior to 1950 USAF History and Museums Program
    • Hooton, E.R (1994). Phoenix Triumphant; The Rise and Rise of the Luftwaffe. London: Arms & Armour Press. ISBN 1-86019-964-X
    • Hooton, E.R (2007). Luftwaffe at War; Blitzkrieg in the West: Volume 2. London: Chevron/Ian Allan. ISBN 978-1-85780-272-6.
    • Hooton, E.R. (2016). War over the Steppes: The air campaigns on the Eastern Front 1941–45. Osprey. ISBN 978-1-47281562
    • Murray, Williamson (1983). Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933–1945. Maxwell AFB: Air University Press. ISBN 978-1-58566-010-0.
    • Overy, Richard J. (1980) The Air War Stein and Day. ISBN 978-1-57488-716
    • Price, Alfred. Kampfflieger -Bombers of the Luftwaffe January 1942-Summer 1943, Volume 3. 2005, Classic Publications. ISBN 978-1-903223-49-9
    • Smith, J. Richard and Creek, Eddie J. (2004). Kampflieger. Vol. 2.: Bombers of the Luftwaffe July 1940 – December 1941. Classic Publications. ISBN 978-1-903223-42-0
    • Smith, J. Richard and Creek, Eddie J. (2004). Kampflieger. Vol. 2.: Bombers of the Luftwaffe July 1940 – December 1941. Classic Publications. ISBN 978-1-903223-43-7
    • Speidel, Wilhelm (1956). The Luftwaffe in the Polish Campaign of 1939. Montgomery, Alabama: Air Force Historical Research Agency. Archived from the original on 27 May 2013.
    None of these books address the claim that Germany would have bombed 1/2 million people in the USSR. I want a citation and the affiliated source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You used Wikipedia as a source a earlier so it must be reliable if you can use it. It's also cited with sources as you know. You simply just want to deny a fact because it makes the Allies look less bad if the Germans and Japanese did it too.
    Sorry, but outragous claims require outrageous proof. Every fool can write in Wikipedia and sites can contain many errors, the claim of 1/2 million deaths in the USSR comes from a leftist magazine, it's an insufficient source.
    HATE SPEECH ISN'T REAL

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