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Thread: Caucasian units and the controversy

  1. #1

    Default Caucasian units and the controversy

    Many times I have seen people complain about the new Caucasian units, be it here on the forums or on Facebook. Now I am wondering, what are they complaining about? The units are amazing and look cool as hell.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Can you please elaborate a bit on what units and controversy you refer to? There may be more of us who only follow this EBII section of the forum and the discussion here.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    I think it's the Georgian units (not the Armenians and probably not most of the others, either), particularly the ones which has horned helmets in it.

  4. #4
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    I think it's the Georgian units (not the Armenians and probably not most of the others, either), particularly the ones which has horned helmets in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Can you please elaborate a bit on what units and controversy you refer to? There may be more of us who only follow this EBII section of the forum and the discussion here.
    Yeah, without any elaboration, this thread almost seems like one that's addressing complaints about there being too many "Caucasians" aka white people in the mod. Via the Out of Africa theory of human migration, it's time to Make the Celts African Again!

    Seriously, though, I honestly like all of the new units, Georgian ones included. I'm far less picky than some posters (you know who you are). Every time I've questioned the validity of this or that in regards to EBII, I've always been satisfied with finding or being directed to academic sources that back up their claims and unit models. Sometimes the evidence is thin, but this mod is more concerned with presenting things as authentically as possible, not getting every single detail right. That's impossible anyway, because ancient history is nothing but fragmentary echoes of a distant past that we've only been lucky enough to piece together to the extent that we have via archaeology and exhaustive primary source analysis.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Yeah, without any elaboration, this thread almost seems like one that's addressing complaints about there being too many "Caucasians" aka white people in the mod.
    Man, some greek units look like dravidian indian men, especially the aspidiotai Hippeis, while some of the anatolian units are whiter.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by NapoleonMaster View Post
    Man, some greek units look like dravidian indian men, especially the aspidiotai Hippeis, while some of the anatolian units are whiter.
    Correct! I actually asked about this in another thread a long time ago, and I remember someone (Quintus?) saying some of the aspidiotai look that way because they are Hellenized and assimilated West Asians/North Africans or something. Some of their face models actually are shared by some Indian units I think, or a least some Afghan ones in ancient Bactria. Most of the Greek units look appropriately southeastern European, though, such as the Euzonoi, Machairophoroi, Thorakitai, Hetairoi, Thessalikoi, Koinon Somatophylakes, etc.

    I guess we should tell these Greeks that they should go back to India where they clearly came from!



  7. #7

    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Correct! I actually asked about this in another thread a long time ago, and I remember someone (Quintus?) saying some of the aspidiotai look that way because they are Hellenized and assimilated West Asians/North Africans or something. Some of their face models actually are shared by some Indian units I think, or a least some Afghan ones in ancient Bactria. Most of the Greek units look appropriately southeastern European, though, such as the Euzonoi, Machairophoroi, Thorakitai, Hetairoi, Thessalikoi, Koinon Somatophylakes, etc.

    I guess we should tell these Greeks that they should go back to India where they clearly came from!


    Yeah, but it doesn't make sense for the western and northern greeks (Hellas, the bosporan kingdom and the western anatolian greeks) to have those skins, maybe if they could change their skin to match their ethnicity, just like the diversity of shields and colors between hellenic factions.

  8. #8
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by NapoleonMaster View Post
    Yeah, but it doesn't make sense for the western and northern greeks (Hellas, the bosporan kingdom and the western anatolian greeks) to have those skins, maybe if they could change their skin to match their ethnicity, just like the diversity of shields and colors between hellenic factions.
    Well, them and all the other Greeks like those in the Western Mediterranean, in what is now southern Italy (including Sicily & Sardinia), southern France, and western Spain. Obviously Greeks in Massalia (modern Marseille, France) wouldn't have any soldiers that looked like non-Greek West Asians and South Asians. If anything, the foreign soldiers surrounding their city-states and often hired by them as mercenaries were a bunch of pasty white Celts. One could argue people migrated around the Hellenistic world, although I'm not sure about any significant amount of West Asians living in the Western Mediterranean basin besides the Carthaginian descendants of Phoenicians. Unfortunately, though, I don't think you can make several different face models for the same unit based on regional variety and you can only superficially change the color of their outfits plus maybe some other minor details, I think. Don't quote me on that. However, I think you can at least change the skin tones within the same unit across different factions.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Correct! I actually asked about this in another thread a long time ago, and I remember someone (Quintus?) saying some of the aspidiotai look that way because they are Hellenized and assimilated West Asians/North Africans or something. Some of their face models actually are shared by some Indian units I think, or a least some Afghan ones in ancient Bactria. Most of the Greek units look appropriately southeastern European, though, such as the Euzonoi, Machairophoroi, Thorakitai, Hetairoi, Thessalikoi, Koinon Somatophylakes, etc.

    I guess we should tell these Greeks that they should go back to India where they clearly came from!


    That's the "Indo-Greeks" who are mostly Hellenised Iranians.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    That's the "Indo-Greeks" who are mostly Hellenised Iranians.
    Okay, that also makes sense, so long as they are vaguely West Asian/Persian, especially Medians or the descendants of earlier Elamites. As you are obviously well aware, some Iranian groups were generally fair-featured, though, like the Scythians and Sogdians. Then again, "Persians" could mean actual ethnic Iranian groups or a blanket term for the various West Asian Semitic peoples ruled over by the Achaemenids and subsequently the Seleucids, such as native speakers of Aramaic and Akkadian. Aside from clothing and armor, the Romans also don't seem to make too much of a distinction between Persians and Greeks in the famous Alexander Mosaic from Pompeii, circa 100 BC:


  11. #11

    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    I seriously thought that the opening post referred to Caucasians as in peoples of Caucasus. The ones from eastern Pontus until the Caspian Sea.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I seriously thought that the opening post referred to Caucasians as in peoples of Caucasus. The ones from eastern Pontus until the Caspian Sea.
    Yeah it was about the people from the Caucasus mountains.


  13. #13

    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    That's the "Indo-Greeks" who are mostly Hellenised Iranians.
    I think he was talking about the Aspidiotai - the generic Hellenistic lancers. They really do have a nice tan

  14. #14

    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I seriously thought that the opening post referred to Caucasians as in peoples of Caucasus. The ones from eastern Pontus until the Caspian Sea.
    It did, because that's any sane person's definition of "Caucasian". The complexion of some of the European units (which I also have questions about) outside of the Caucasus is surely a topic for another thread.

  15. #15
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Caucasian units and the controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I think he was talking about the Aspidiotai - the generic Hellenistic lancers. They really do have a nice tan
    A suntan...isn't that what Italy's infamous Silvio Berlusconi said about Barack Obama that one time?

    Yeah, they're definitely West Asian/South Asian, although again, that doesn't really make sense when you recruit them from Massalia in Gaul where it would have been entirely ethnic Greeks or a mixed population of Celts and Greeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    It did, because that's any sane person's definition of "Caucasian". The complexion of some of the European units (which I also have questions about) outside of the Caucasus is surely a topic for another thread.
    Na ah, Athanaric, this thread is now the stomping grounds for any and all discussion about suntans and West Eurasian genetics.

    I don't find anything particularly glaring or wrong with the newest Caucasian units. Some look a bit rag tag to me, but it's not my area of study or even field or interest. It would be nice if someone familiar with the ancient history of the Caucasus could weigh in here and dispel whatever notions the OP is having.

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