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Thread: Bavaria unites Germany instead of Prussia

  1. #21

    Default Re: Bavaria unites Germany instead of Prussia

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley_Quinn View Post
    Prussia was rightful dissolved after WW II.
    By your standards, every country would be "rightfully dissolved". And where would that lead us? Face it, Prussia wasn't better or worse than other places. Prussia wasn't the main reason behind National Socialism, there is no predestined path that leads from Prussia to the Nazis. You'll never get anywhere with a moralistic or teleological view of history, except inflicting misery onto yourself and others.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Bavaria unites Germany instead of Prussia

    The Prussian territories may have provided a lot of electoral support for the Nazi party in its second stage of aspiration to power (1930-1933) but its leadership during the 19th century show enlightened treatment of Jews. The Metternichian settlement saw a lot of Napoleonic social reforms reversed but with waves of revolts on the 1830's, 1848 etc a lot of rights were reclaimed for ordinary Germans, and Prussia pragmatically guaranteed quite a progressive regime especially compared to backward Tsarist and Hapsburg states whop repressed free thought in vain.

    I imagine Bavaria was more socially conservative than Prussia in the 19th century? I know they adopted Napoleonic tolerance (but not representative government) during the First Empire, but IIRC there was a strong militant Catholic political faction. Its likely any dominant Bavaria would either have to eradicate or harness this political element (as they did during the Thirty years War as head of the Catholic League).

    Bavaria of course has a tradition of insane baroque and other fanciful palaces and might have contributed a richer artistic culture to their version of Germany. Maybe they were hoping for a "Wonders Victory"?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #23

    Default Re: Bavaria unites Germany instead of Prussia

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    By your standards, every country would be "rightfully dissolved". And where would that lead us? Face it, Prussia wasn't better or worse than other places. Prussia wasn't the main reason behind National Socialism, there is no predestined path that leads from Prussia to the Nazis. You'll never get anywhere with a moralistic or teleological view of history, except inflicting misery onto yourself and others.
    Two problematic aspects of this era were however very much attached to the "Prussian mentality" of the 1800s and the early 20th century and that's the "Kadavergehorsam" and the pride that people took in a militaristic culture, combined with the desperate attempts to imitate the British Empire, it's colonies & the large fleet ("Platz an der Sonne"). Let's face it, the time when Germany got the image to be aggressive, expansive and racist, only developed after Prussia managed it to become the dominant power of Central Europe. It was also the Prussian leadership of the 2nd Empire, who decided to form an alliance with the Ottomans, the former arch enemy of the 1st Empire (the HRE), that's why I cringe every time, when I see people using the image of Kaiser Wilhelm II as an avatar.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Bavaria unites Germany instead of Prussia

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinarius View Post
    Two problematic aspects of this era were however very much attached to the "Prussian mentality" of the 1800s and the early 20th century and that's the "Kadavergehorsam" and the pride that people took in a militaristic culture, combined with the desperate attempts to imitate the British Empire, it's colonies & the large fleet ("Platz an der Sonne"). Let's face it, the time when Germany got the image to be aggressive, expansive and racist, only developed after Prussia managed it to become the dominant power of Central Europe. It was also the Prussian leadership of the 2nd Empire, who decided to form an alliance with the Ottomans, the former arch enemy of the 1st Empire (the HRE), that's why I cringe every time, when I see people using the image of Kaiser Wilhelm II as an avatar.
    The Prussian state never really looked past the Baltic as far as its naval horizons went, it was focussed on France as an opponent, Austria as a rival and Russia as the foe never to be fought (smart move by Bismarck to keep that alliance going, they had Prussia's back for many decades).

    Its only when he Second Reich is formed that Germany looks to the sea and a real colonial empire. That brings conflict with France an Britain. The alternatives I guess are

    1. Not expand (and remain junior partner to Russia).

    2. Go east = Attack Russia (not very successful historically, although it can be done, say in alliance with Britain and Austria). there's plenty of ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe to justify invasion and rule the new territories. A pretty horrible scenario as it probably involves ethnic cleansing of non-Germans.

    3. Go South = annihilate Austria. While Russia might aid against Austria realpolitik means France and maybe Britain will oppose this. Very hard to do.

    3.1 Take Italy. Almost the whole world would oppose this, with France and Britain leading the defence of Italy

    3.2 Take the Balkans. Just no. Even Russia would oppose this, and the territory is not worth the trouble.

    4. Milk France. Keep smashing Paris until colonies fall off the tree and pick up this fruit. However its more likely Britain will collect the fruit than Germany.

    5. Go North. Done right Germany might have grasped Denmark or even the whole of Scandinavia...but Britain would oppose this and very hard to beat their navy.

    Very few options for Germany after 1871 (it was a brilliant miracle they formed the Second Reich as it was). Once they were a Great Power thy attracted opposition even from former allies. Historically they played of Britain and France for small colonial gains, but the late start in the game meant the good colonies were taken and Germany was below the US on the colonial table, and mils behind Russia, France and Britain. Even Belgium had more profitable colonies in Africa.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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