View Poll Results: Which party would you vote for?

Voters
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  • Likud (Conservative)

    3 12.00%
  • Jewish Home (Right-Wing)

    0 0%
  • Yesh Atid (Centrism)

    0 0%
  • Labour (Center-Left)

    1 4.00%
  • New Right (right-wing)

    1 4.00%
  • Joint Union (Israeli Arab)

    3 12.00%
  • Kulanu (Center)

    0 0%
  • Shas (Sephardic-Mizrahi Orthodoxy)

    1 4.00%
  • United Torah Judaism (Ashkenazi Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Yachad (Ultra-Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Hatnuah (Liberalism)

    0 0%
  • Ta'al (Arab Nationalism)

    3 12.00%
  • Israel Resilience Party (Center-Right)

    0 0%
  • Metetz (Green-Left)

    8 32.00%
  • Yisrael Beiteinu (Zionism)

    0 0%
  • Gesher (Right-Wing)

    1 4.00%
  • Zehut (Libertarianism)

    3 12.00%
  • Other (Please, specify)

    1 4.00%
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Thread: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

  1. #21

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    He's a meme candidate at this point, but I'm rooting for Netanyahu. He's miraculously finding new allies all over the world while simultaneously being tough on Israel's enemies. No idea about domestic policy, but with the situation in Iran and Syria I'll have to prioritize foreign policy, and I don't know how reliable these Gantz/Lapid fellows are on that front. Change seems risky right now.

    I really don't expect Netanyahu to make it, but apparently, somehow, he's still holding on.

    https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/03/0...-announcement/

    New Israeli Poll Shows Right-Wing Bloc Still Ahead After Netanyahu Indictment Announcement

    A new poll shows that if Israeli elections were held today, the right-wing bloc would still come out ahead of the center-left opposition, allowing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to form a narrow rightist government.

    According to the poll conducted by Hebrew news site Walla, the right-wing bloc would control 61 seats in the next Knesset, with the left-wing bloc receiving 59 — insufficient for a governing coalition.

    The poll showed the centrist party Blue and White, led by former IDF chief of staff Benny Gantz and Yesh Atid chairman Yair Lapid, coming in first with 36 seats, versus 31 for Netanyahu’s Likud party.

    Blue and White’s natural coalition partners, however, fared less well, with the Labor party receiving eight seats, Meretz six, and the Arab bloc — which refuses to sit in coalitions but would likely recommend Blue and White to the president as the party most suited to form a government — with nine.

    Netanyahu’s rightist allies in the Union of Right-Wing Parties would receive seven seats, while the New Right and the more moderate Kulanu would each win six.

    In addition, the ultra-Orthodox parties, who are likely to endorse Netanyahu, would win eleven seats in total.

    The poll results indicate that Netanyahu’s political support remains stable despite the aura of scandal that has surrounded him since the attorney general announced his intention to indict the prime minister on corruption charges.
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  2. #22
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    He's a meme candidate at this point, but I'm rooting for Netanyahu. He's miraculously finding new allies all over the world while simultaneously being tough on Israel's enemies. No idea about domestic policy, but with the situation in Iran and Syria I'll have to prioritize foreign policy, and I don't know how reliable these Gantz/Lapid fellows are on that front. Change seems risky right now.

    I really don't expect Netanyahu to make it, but apparently, somehow, he's still holding on.

    https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/03/0...-announcement/
    I wouldn't call him a "meme candidate", he is still the more likely winner, with a more realistic path to forming a coalition.
    Your article really simplifies matters, by putting the parties into 2 blocs, but that's not really the case. In reality there are 4 blocs: Right, left, ultra-orthodox and Arabs.
    The ultra-orthodox have sat in coalitions of both left and right wing governments in the past, and usually if one of the parties joins a coalition then so does the other. The Arab parties (currently 2, previously as many as 4 or as few as 1) meanwhile all refuse to sit in any ruling coalition, so for the purpose of drawing up blocs they are better left as "empty seats" since neither candidate has any chance of pulling them into a coalition. Eve if they recommend Gantz for forming the coalition, he'd still need 61 members or else the job of forming the coalition will go to the party that came in 2nd, namely Netanyahu's Likud.

    This is where it gets a bit complicated, however. While Gantz's alliance with Yair Lapid pretty much promises him the 1st place in the election, it makes it exceedingly difficult for him to form a coalition, as both ultra-orthodox parties have vowed not to sit in a government that includes Lapid (due to his anti-ultra-orthodox policies). This means that with both the ultra-orthodox and Arab blocs being unattainable for Gantz, he'd need to have several right-wing parties join him to be able to reach 61 seats. And while he might be able to convince Kulanu to support him, that wouldn't be enough. Another potential partner is Gesher, but it seems increasingly unlikely that they'll get enough votes to pass the voter threshold, and even if it does it still wouldn't quite be enough. An alliance with any other parties from the right bloc would most likely result in losing the support of his left wing allies, Meretz and also possibly, though less likely, Labour.
    Netanyahu however has an actual chance, as the right+ultra-orthodox blocs might be able to get 61 seats or more, which would enable him to simply reform the coalition he already currently has. However, said coalition would be problematic as it would require the inclusion of 2 far-right members of parliament.

    All this leads to what I am starting to believe is the likeliest option, in case Netanyahu's coalition fails to secure 61 seats: a coalition between the Likud and Blue & white. The question that remains, however, is which party would lead it.
    Last edited by nhytgbvfeco2; March 06, 2019 at 07:23 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    I've seen this photo and Haaretz article about the Blue & White circulating a lot among Israeli Anglos on Facebook:


    Election 2019: The One Where Liberal Israelis Fantasize About Being Ruled by a Gang of Generals

    With equally amusing analysis:

    A party led by three former generals who made their name fighting the enemy on the battlefield and exerting military control over millions of disenfranchised civilians would automatically be stereotyped, in any other context, as militarist, authoritarian and a threat to liberal values.

    But this is Israel, where three gruff generals who lead a hitherto non-existent party with the appropriately patriotic name of Kahol Lavan (Hebrew for blue and white), are the dream team on which most leftists, liberals, peace supporters and human rights activists – not to mention Israeli Druze and Arabs - are pinning their hopes.

    A combination of sheer desperation and the unique Israeli relationship between civilians and military has thrust former army chief of staff Benny Gantz, along with his two predecessors and sidekicks, Moshe Ya'alon and Gabi Ashkenazi, into the front lines of Israeli history. They constitute the best and possibly last chance to save Israel from Benjamin Netanyahu’s final assault on Israel’s democracy, rule of law and whatever remains of its liberal values.

    Granted, the three have hardly uttered a word that should endear them to Israeli peaceniks and those who, in countries such as the U.S., would be called “liberal”. Nonetheless, even Labor Party and Meretz loyalists who bemoan the fact that Israeli moderates have anointed a military junta to rule over them will be praying for Gantz and Co. on April 9. Beggars who have lost to Netanyahu three times straight - and who haven’t notched up a decisive victory in 20 years – can’t exactly be choosers.

    The joint enlistment of the military trio, amplified by their dramatic last minute union with former Finance Minister Yair Lapid, had already upended Israeli politics before the attorney general issued his decision late last week to indict Netanyahu on three charges of corruption. In less than a month, the prospects of Netanyahu losing the elections have gone from unthinkable to improbable to plausible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  4. #24
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    I think Netanyahu's work is done. He should resign in dignity and enjoy life and let others come forth. It's not sarcasm or anything, but it's time for him to go.
    Last edited by swabian; March 09, 2019 at 07:30 PM.

  5. #25
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I've seen this photo and Haaretz article about the Blue & White circulating a lot among Israeli Anglos on Facebook:

    Election 2019: The One Where Liberal Israelis Fantasize About Being Ruled by a Gang of Generals

    With equally amusing analysis:
    Quite amusing indeed. They seem to forget that their favourite "peacenik" prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, was also a general. Didn't seem to bother them then.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    I think Netanyahu's work is done. He should resign in dignity and enjoy life and let others come forth. It's not sarcasm or anything, but it's time for him to go.
    I hope not, under Bibi israel's terrorist friends have been btfo in Syria and Iraq, Iran is stronger than ever and has a military presence on israel's borders, and American popular support for israel is the lowest its been in a decade. This guy is pure gold. Plus its nice for someone who can state the obvious so even the most deluded Western retards can stop pretending israel is anything than a racist ethnostate. According to Bibi, israel is for jews and jews alone. Imagine what israeli-controlled media would say if a German politician said Germany was for Germans, or any other white nation for that matter.

  7. #27
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Caduet View Post
    Old news...June 2108.Israel is now officially an Apartheid state? TWCenter

    And now,in his speech, Netanyahu meets Orwell, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
    He insists..."The nation state not of all its citizens but only of the Jewish people"
    And he adds..."there is no problem with the Arab citizens of Israel. They have equal rights like all of us"

    -----
    Last year, not incidentally
    Israeli cartoonist fired over 'Animal Farm' Netanyahu caricature |The Guardian
    an Israeli magazine has fired its long-serving cartoonist after he portrayed Benjamin Netanyahu and his allies as pigs from George Orwell’s Animal Farm
    In fact, according to the Haaretz, In Israel, Charlie Hebdo would not have even had the right to exist
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  8. #28
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Old news...June 2108.Israel is now officially an Apartheid state? TWCenter

    And now,in his speech, Netanyahu meets Orwell, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
    He insists..."The nation state not of all its citizens but only of the Jewish people"
    And he adds..."there is no problem with the Arab citizens of Israel. They have equal rights like all of us"

    -----
    Last year, not incidentally
    Israeli cartoonist fired over 'Animal Farm' Netanyahu caricature |The Guardian

    In fact, according to the Haaretz, In Israel, Charlie Hebdo would not have even had the right to exist
    Yes, and it was already explained to you back then that "state of all its citizens" has a very different meaning in Hebrew.

    As for the free speech thing, I agree (although take care with using Haaretz, they're about as reliable on matters related to Israel as Al-Jazeera). We take too much care not to offend religious groups in Israel, for example Jews aren't even allowed onto the temple mount to pray out of fear of offending the Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caduet View Post
    I hope not, under Bibi israel's terrorist friends have been btfo in Syria and Iraq, Iran is stronger than ever and has a military presence on israel's borders, and American popular support for israel is the lowest its been in a decade. This guy is pure gold. Plus its nice for someone who can state the obvious so even the most deluded Western retards can stop pretending israel is anything than a racist ethnostate. According to Bibi, israel is for jews and jews alone. Imagine what israeli-controlled media would say if a German politician said Germany was for Germans, or any other white nation for that matter.
    You again conflate Jews with Israelis. Jews living in Germany don't like being told that Germany is for Germans, because they are non Germans living in Germany. That makes sense. Jews living in Israel couldn't care less, in fact most are worried about the future of Europe and the potential impact on relations caused by European countries becoming Muslim majority.

    However, as already stated, "state of all its citizens" is a very specific term, and said term is what Netanyahu was speaking against. Every citizen of Israel is equal.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    And now,in his speech, Netanyahu meets Orwell, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
    He insists..."The nation state not of all its citizens but only of the Jewish people"
    And he adds..."there is no problem with the Arab citizens of Israel. They have equal rights like all of us"
    The statement is incoherent when translated to English, also conceptually foreign. The vast majority of Israeli Arabs and Jews alike would agree that more than one "nation" lives in the state. The issue is not one of individual rights or citizens rights, but of the right of each "nation" to claim the state. The "Arab nation" believes they have a right to the land on which the state of Israel exists and a right to a Judenrein Palestine. The "Jewish nation" believes they have a right to the state of Israel. The Israeli right rejects the idea that citizenship grants a non-Jewish collective a national right to the state. If you believe this concept of national rights is itself incoherent, then you're probably a product of European culture. Although to be fair, "nation" really isn't a good translation, but no better translation exists for reasons that should be obvious now.

    Netanyahu is just trying to out right-wing his opponents for the sake of the election. It may have backfired in this case:

    On Sunday afternoon, New Right leader Naftali Bennett also criticized Netanyahu for his Facebook post.

    "During days when rockets are falling on communities in the South, I don't understand the logic of attacking a TV broadcaster instead of dealing with the real threat, which is Hamas shooting rockets at our children," Bennett said. "When I am defense minister, we will fight terrorists, and not the host of Hakochav Haba."
    Avi Katz wasn't fired because he broke any law, Israelis are free to mock politicians, but yes, it's isn't legal in Israel to draw mocking cartoons of Muhammad, Jesus, or Moses. Sounds downright Middle Eastern, doesn't it? In this case however, the law was put in place by the British in order to prevent riots. If it were up to the Ashkenazi elites it would have been done away with a long time ago, but it remains for the same reason that the Sharia, Halakha, and Christian courts remain - because the Arabs and the Haredim would riot en masse otherwise, and Israel has enough tensions as it is.

    Can't really see how it has anything to do with the election though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  10. #30
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The statement is incoherent when translated to English.
    Really, sumskilz.There is nothing lost in translation. Quoting again- Israeli President Rivlin asks,
    are we willing to support discrimination and exclusion of men and women based on their ethnic origin? this clause (7b) would essentially allow any community to establish residential communities that exclude Sephardic Jews, ultra-Orthodox people, Druze, LGBT people. Is that what the Zionist vision means?
    ---
    David Kretzmer, Professor Emeritus of Constitutional and International Law, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, says "the Jewish Nation-State Law is a shame". Read the full interview.A Lei do Estado-Naçăo é uma vergonha, atira ŕ cara da minoria árabe
    Who is David Kretzmer - Wikipedia

    Read also, Enforcing Illegality: Israel's Military Justice in the West Bank - QIL QDI
    -
    ----

    20 years ago Kretzmer wrote that when Israel's status as a Jewish state and as a democracy committed to equal rights for all citizens is combined with the fact that between 17 or 18% of the population is not Jewish but Arab, the country is faced with a dilemma.

    Dilemma solved by the shameful new basic Law.
    Last edited by Ludicus; March 10, 2019 at 08:33 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  11. #31
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Remember to construct your arguments in a non-personal, objective manner. No posts have been edited at this time, but some are close. You can express your arguments with more neutral terms than some displayed on several posts in this thread.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  12. #32

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Really, sumskilz. There is nothing lost in translation.
    Yes, really. To claim otherwise is ignorant. Even without knowing the meaning in Hebrew, it should be obvious that it comes across incoherent in English.

    A "state for all its citizens" also has a particular connotation in Israeli political discourse. It's associated with abolishing the Jewish right of return, removing Jewish symbols from anything related to the government, and granting political autonomy to all Arabs within the state. As I said, each "nation" would have an equal claim to the state.

    Reuven Rivlin is an idealist with a very European worldview that is at odds with most Israelis, which is not surprising considering he was born to Austrian parents who were the first to translate the Quran into Hebrew. He's a supporter of the one state solution for example. Although interestingly he holds his position partly due to support from Arabs and the far left as well as the right wing settler movement since they want to annex the West Bank. Although the quote you have of him there isn't relevant to any understanding of the the term translated as "nation". He's talking about his opposition to community settlements.

    Rivlin is a member of Netanyahu's party by the way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  13. #33
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    In this case ...the law was put in place by the British in order to prevent riots.
    Sumskilz, the British Mandate ended on 15 May 1948. And... Haaretz published a cartoon 38 years ago depicting Israeli leaders as

    Nobody Got Fired...That caricature was the work of Israel Prize laureate Yisrael Zeev and was published by Haaretz in May 1980 under the headline "Arik's Animal Farm.
    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Even without knowing the meaning in Hebrew,
    sumskilz, the Jewish cartoonist knows Hebrew.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Reuven Rivlin is an idealist..He's talking about his opposition to community settlements.
    The president of Israel knows Hebrew.And no, he isn't talking about the settlements. Red the interview to a Portuguese newspaper (link above)
    Use google translator
    E, dentro da vergonha que que é, há um lado pior: aquilo que simbolicamente significa para a minoria árabe-palestiniana no que diz respeito ao Estado de Israel. É atirar-lhe ŕ cara a ideia de que este, na verdade, năo é o seu Estado — é o Estado só dos judeus.
    David Kretzmer is an Israeli expert in international and constitutional law; professor emeritus of international law of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and,
    professor of law at the Transitional Justice Institute at the University of Ulster in Northern Ireland. He has been a member of international and Israeli Human Rights organizations, including the UN Human Rights Committee under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, serving as its vice-chairperson in 2001 and 2002. He established the Centre for Human Rights at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and was a founding member of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, the Minerva Centre for Human Rights, a joint centre of the Hebrew University and Tel Aviv Universityץ He is also a founding member of B'Tselem.
    It seems to me that Kretzmer knows Hebrew.
    The Daily Sabah knows Hebrew, Netanyahu says Israel is the state of Jews, not all citizens - Daily Sabah
    Even the Fox News got it,Netanyahu: Israel is the state of 'Jewish people alone' | Fox News
    In a new jab at the country's Arab minority
    Last edited by Ludicus; March 10, 2019 at 09:40 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  14. #34

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Sumskilz, the British Mandate ended on 15 May 1948. And... Haaretz published a cartoon 38 years ago depicting Israeli leaders as
    So? There is nothing inconsistent there with what I said. There is no law against mocking political leaders. Firing someone is a business decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  15. #35

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Almost every Middle Eastern country is officially Arab and Islamic, even though in many cases large minorities of the population are non-Arabs and non-Muslims, who are often viciously persecuted, so I don't see why Israel should be singled out for being a Jewish state, especially since non-Jewish citizens of Israel generally enjoy equal rights, and a higher level of liberty and standard of living than in any neighboring country.

    As long as the Israeli government isn't committing any human rights violations, this seems like a domestic dispute for the Israelis to sort out on their own, doesn't seem like it warrants this degree of international attention.
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  16. #36

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    sumskilz, the Jewish cartoonist knows Hebrew.

    The president of Israel knows Hebrew.

    David Kretzmer is an Israeli expert in international and constitutional law; professor emeritus of international law of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and,

    It seems to me that Kretzmer knows Hebrew.
    Kretzmer is from South Africa, but yes, they all know Hebrew. What's the point though? Nothing you've quoted is inconsistent with, or in some cases even relevant to, what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  17. #37
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    So? There is nothing inconsistent there with what I said. There is no law against mocking political leaders.
    In a religious state, everything is religious...as the Haaretz put it, .n Israel, Charlie Hebdo would not have even had the right to exist
    ...and don't blame the British.

    What's the point though?...
    According to Kretzmer, the racist nation-state law is an insult to the Arab "citizens" of Israel.
    Simply put, the law declares that the state is only the state of its Jewish residents. The Arab population living in Israel have no other homeland.They will not agree that they are living there only by grace, without equal rights to those of its Jewish citizens and as second-class citizens.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  18. #38
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    https://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-n...mpression=true

    Netanyahu has really gone too far here, he sounds like a racial nationalist.
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  19. #39
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    https://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-n...mpression=true

    Netanyahu has really gone too far here, he sounds like a racial nationalist.
    Sounds, yes, because of the translation. The term "state of all its citizens" is a specific term in Israel/Hebrew, and basically means that Israel isn't a Jewish state. What Netanyahu says is that it is a Jewish state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    In a religious state, everything is religious...as the Haaretz put it, .n Israel, Charlie Hebdo would not have even had the right to exist
    ...and don't blame the British.
    And you're still using Haaretz. It's incredibly biased against Israel, and most of their articles are behind a paywall for Israeli's, making it even less useful as a source than it already was. I'd really prefer if you used al-Jazeera, at least there I don't have to pay to read it.
    According to Kretzmer, the racist nation-state law is an insult to the Arab "citizens" of Israel.
    And according to me, Kretzmer is an idiot. There is nothing in the law that actually changes anything in the status of the Arabs, they are still fully equal citizens.
    Simply put, the law declares that the state is only the state of its Jewish residents. The Arab population living in Israel have no other homeland.They will not agree that they are living there only by grace, without equal rights to those of its Jewish citizens and as second-class citizens.
    The law declares that Israel is a Jewish state, that's nothing new, just was never written in law.
    The Arab population has about 30 other homelands, but they're still fully equal citizens in Israel. They can vote, get elected, and really do anything that a Jew can, but at the same time the mandatory military service doesn't apply to them, so while Jews will only at the age of 21 begin their academic studies the Arabs can already finish their first degree by that time. I'd say that that's a privilege, if anything.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The president of Israel knows Hebrew. And no, he isn't talking about the settlements.
    As I said, Rivlin is quite clearly referring to community settlements in that quote. Section 7b of the Nation-State Law is even specifically referenced.

    This is exactly what you posted:

    are we willing to support discrimination and exclusion of men and women based on their ethnic origin? this clause (7b) would essentially allow any community to establish residential communities that exclude Sephardic Jews, ultra-Orthodox people, Druze, LGBT people. Is that what the Zionist vision means?
    However, section 7b was removed from the text before it passed, as you can see: https://knesset.gov.il/laws/special/...ationState.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    In a religious state, everything is religious...as the Haaretz put it, .n Israel, Charlie Hebdo would not have even had the right to exist
    ...and don't blame the British.
    Speaking of incoherent. Are you claiming that the law against religious incitement doesn't date to the British Mandate? Are you claiming that said law is somehow responsible for a private entity firing an employee over drawing a cartoon unrelated to religion or religious figures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    According to Kretzmer, the racist nation-state law is an insult to the Arab "citizens" of Israel.
    Okay, so your point is that some guy has an opinion. Many Israelis have the same opinion, and most Arabs did see it as insulting. The law was meant to be divisive, but as a bit of political theater it wasn't directed at Arab citizens, it was meant to divide the supposedly true Zionist politicians from those politicians who are allegedly only Zionist in name. The Arab parties were completely irrelevant in this decision, since they refuse to sit in a coalition with any Zionist party, they are politically irrelevant.

    The reason Netanyahu brought it up now, and made a social media scene in a very Trump-like maneuver, is the same reason. His party is trying paint Gantz and Lapid as not true Zionists, but leftists in disguise in order to discredit them.

    You can see this clearly in Miri Regev's response to Rotem Sela over the issue:

    “Rotem, we have no problem with the Arabs,” she wrote on Facebook. “We have in our party many Arab, Druze and Christian members. We have a problem with the hypocrisy and the masquerade ball of Lapid and Gantz, who are trying with all their might to hide from the public the fact that they’re left-wing, and are dressing up as centrists.” Regev added that Matsliah “didn’t stop me because it’s the truth. It’s either Bibi or Tibi.”
    Anyway, seems like you're getting distraught about a situation you have no control over, rather than trying acquire a deeper understanding of the context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Simply put, the law declares that the state is only the state of its Jewish residents.
    This is the misunderstanding I tried to explain to you. It doesn't refer to individual rights. It refers to the self-determination of national identities within the state. I think you would still disagree with it even if you understood it and still consider it discriminatory, but that's neither here nor there to me. I consider the law to have been pointless from a legal standpoint.

    The first time I filled out a visa application to enter Israel, I was confused that the English/Hebrew form asked me to fill in my "nationality" (אזרחי) and then in the very next box asked for my "nationality" (לאומי). The first is nationality in more of a sense of citizenship, the second is nationality in the sense of deep community ties and culture. Even knowing this, I still didn't know what to put for the second box, because it doesn't exactly make sense in English, and I'm not either American or Jewish, or even Jewish vs non-Jewish. The form also asked for "religion", so a person could put Jewish as their religion, independent of whether or not they put Jewish as their "nationality". Israeli is not a "nationality" in the sense it is being used in the nation-state law. It is uncontroversial among Israeli citizens that the state contains members of multiple "nations". These "nations" are also not exactly synonymous with "ethnicities" in Hebrew either, before someone gets that notion. Sephardi is an ethnicity, Jewish is a "nationality". Naturally this concept is foreign to assimilated Jews in Western countries, who mostly see their nationality and citizenship as synonymous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Netanyahu has really gone too far here, he sounds like a racial nationalist.
    Israel has the complication of multiple indigenous "nations" in one state which makes things different, but as an example of how this is conceived of in Hebrew: What nationalities other than English do you think England is the nation-state of? Picking an example... Do Pakistanis in England have the right to self-determination since they are a different nationality? Do Pakistanis have the right to have English symbols removed from all government buildings, forms, and currency because such symbols are not inclusive of their separate Pakistani identity? The solution in England has been to try to make a civil English identity independent of other identities, but in Israel, neither the bulk of majority nor the minorities wish to create a civil Israeli identity independent of their community identities. In fact, a good portion of the minorities would be violently opposed to such an effort. What they want is an equal claim to the state by their own "nation". So the question arises, is Israel also a nation-state of the Arab people? Most Israeli Jews say no.
    Last edited by sumskilz; March 11, 2019 at 04:55 AM. Reason: fixed typos
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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