View Poll Results: Which party would you vote for?

Voters
25. You may not vote on this poll
  • Likud (Conservative)

    3 12.00%
  • Jewish Home (Right-Wing)

    0 0%
  • Yesh Atid (Centrism)

    0 0%
  • Labour (Center-Left)

    1 4.00%
  • New Right (right-wing)

    1 4.00%
  • Joint Union (Israeli Arab)

    3 12.00%
  • Kulanu (Center)

    0 0%
  • Shas (Sephardic-Mizrahi Orthodoxy)

    1 4.00%
  • United Torah Judaism (Ashkenazi Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Yachad (Ultra-Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Hatnuah (Liberalism)

    0 0%
  • Ta'al (Arab Nationalism)

    3 12.00%
  • Israel Resilience Party (Center-Right)

    0 0%
  • Metetz (Green-Left)

    8 32.00%
  • Yisrael Beiteinu (Zionism)

    0 0%
  • Gesher (Right-Wing)

    1 4.00%
  • Zehut (Libertarianism)

    3 12.00%
  • Other (Please, specify)

    1 4.00%
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Thread: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

  1. #581

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    They want to make the judges wear overalls? That's terrible!
    Ha, fixed. Although, if that were the case, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #582
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    as separation of powers is preserved. Which I certainly hope will remain the case...Religious zionism is a broad term.
    I wish the best for you. Let's wait and see. Religious zionism is not a broad term, in my opinion.Read below.

    Netanyahu's Government Takes a Turn Toward Theocracy- New Yorker

    In recent years, the three groups have meshed ideologically into the “national camp,” adhering in particular to the ultranationalist, Greater Israel vision of the religious-Zionist alliance: prohibiting the surrender of Biblically promised land, and moving the state further toward Orthodox law.
    In Thursday, Smotrich told the Knesset that he will enjoy increased budgets to “regulate and strengthen our grip on the homeland,” meaning to legalize new settlement outposts and to increase construction in existing settlements, while Ben Gvir and the army suppress resistance to settler provocations.
    The coalition further agreed to empower the religious-Zionist leader Avi Maoz, who is notorious for bigoted and homophobic views, to take charge of some school curricula even in secular schools.
    And it agreed to amend the Law of Return, itself an illiberal anachronism that awards Jews defined by faith and bloodline immediate citizenship; the proposal is to amend the criteria for bloodline from “child and grandchild of a Jew” just to “child,” allowing rabbis to assess the stringency of immigrants’ faith, by considering the homes of their parents. It would thus restrict the ability of many asylum seekers to immigrate—perhaps some of the thousands of refugees from Ukraine, who may be secular, have non-Jewish parents, but have at least one Jewish grandparent.
    ...Religious Zionism, in other words, is mixing a notion of divine election with state power.
    In any case, it is good to remember an inconvenient truth, and its nothing new. I already explained why Google and Apple Maps Recognize Illegal Israeli Israeli Settlements, but Not Palestine. Haaretz.
    Despite their claims, the two tech giants' ubiquitous, influential maps and navigation tools aren't value-neutral at all. Just ask a Palestinian.
    You won’t find hundreds of Palestinian villages, as they are missing from the maps produced by Google and Apple or on their GPS services. Palestine doesn’t appear…These maps are reframing geopolitical reality for an audience of billions.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  3. #583
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Religious zionism is not a broad term, in my opinion.Read below.
    ..It is. I just gave you prominent religious zionist leaders who aren't part of the coalition. The "religious zionist" party simply co-opted the name.
    I've noticed that the religious zionists are a group you seem to have some particular problem with, but I've interacted with a lot of people who belong to this group, and all of them were good people I have much respect for.

  4. #584

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Regarding that article, Avishi writes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Avishai
    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s new coalition government, which was sworn in last week, is routinely referred to as “extreme right,” but this tortures the meaning of conservatism in a democracy. Thirty-two of the coalition’s sixty-four members in the Knesset (out of a hundred and twenty parliamentary seats) are disciples of so-called religious parties, the political arms of theocratic communities. These parties, and factions of parties, can be divided into three groups: The largest alliance, with fourteen seats, is religious Zionism, whose forebears were preoccupied with preserving the rabbinic privileges afforded by the British Mandate in the new state of Israel—such as supervision over marriage, burial, conversion, and dietary laws, and state-supported religious schools—but which, since 1967, has been overtaken by the messianic claims of West Bank settlers. The Haredi, or ultra-Orthodox, with seven seats, represent self-segregating communities living mainly in and around Jerusalem. Shas, with eleven seats, are a populist, anti-élite party of Orthodox Mizrahi immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East, who tend to be poorer and less educated.
    I would summarize that by saying that the Religious Zionist coalition holds 14 seats (which is ~11.7% of the total) while so-called Ultra-Orthodox parties hold 18 seats (which is 15% of the total). Not sure why he has divided the two Haredi parties in his analysis. The main difference is that one is Ashkenazi while the other is Sephardi/Mizrahi. Other than that, they don’t differ on much of anything that anyone outside their communities would care about.

    Anyway, he goes on:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Avishai
    In recent years, the three groups have meshed ideologically into the “national camp,” adhering in particular to the ultranationalist, Greater Israel vision of the religious-Zionist alliance: prohibiting the surrender of Biblically promised land, and moving the state further toward Orthodox law.
    Although I get what he actually means, I think his usage of the word “meshed” here is misleading. To some degree, they share the goal of strengthening the power of the Orthodox rabbinate, but the Haredi parties are indifferent to Religious-Zionism’s nationalist goals. Religious-Zionists are also Modern Orthodox rather than Ultra-Orthodox, so many of them are much more liberal in the dictionary sense of the word. Naftali Bennett has a drastically different worldview than Avi Maoz, but both a Religious Zionists.

    The issue with this election though, is that there was no moderate Religious Zionist party in the running. Instead, there was a coalition that spanned from Bezalel Smotrich on the furthest right end of mainstream Israeli politics to a bunch to Guys like Ben Gvir and Avi Moaz, who had previously been shunned by just about everyone. Now couple that with the fact that several parties didn’t make the threshold, and the result is that the hardline Religious Zionists received ~11.7% of the seats and the Ultra-Orthodox parties received 15% of the seats, even though they didn’t receive those percentages of the votes. On top of that, Netanyahu needs them, so not only do they currently hold a disproportionate number of seats, but they also hold disproportionate power within the coalition. Some have said that Israeli democracy is potentially facing a tyranny of the majority, but to me, it looks like more of a tyranny of the minority.

    That said, the hardline Religious Zionists did receive a bump in popularity. I’ve read analysis that it was mostly from young male non-Ashkenazi working class Jews.

    Here’s a bit more analysis:

    From March 2021 to November 2022, the far-right alliance of Religious Zionism-Otzma Yehudit managed to more than double its support, from just over 225,000 votes in March 2021 to more than 516,000 votes last week.

    Its dramatic rise, catapulting it from the ninth largest party last year to third largest this year, and projected ascension to power alongside right-wing Likud and Haredi parties, has caused voices opposed to its political bloc to bewail the downfall of the country.

    Outgoing Prime Minister Yair Lapid on Sunday said the country is not over, but called the fight for the preservation of democracy “the war of our time,” while Otzma Yehudit’s head Itamar Ben Gvir wrote a rare opinion piece on Tuesday to calm down political left-wingers worried that “the state is gone.”

    Including the tiny Noam party, the Religious Zionism-Otzma Yehudit list touts a selection of ideologies that are ultranationalist, preferencing Jews over Arabs, religiously conservative and anti-LGBT. Religious Zionism and Otzma Yehudit’s leaders have both clashed with security forces who counter settler extremism, causing discomfort with some of their future coalition partners — including former Shin Bet head and Likud MK Avi Dichter — who squirm at some of the far-right leaders’ statements against the agency.

    Many of the party’s voters were likely drawn in by its fiery rhetoric and hard-right stances, including banning pride parades and reinstituting conversion therapy, reining in the Supreme Court, advancing bills to effectively cancel Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu’s ongoing corruption trials, segregating Arab-Jewish maternity wards, expelling “disloyal” Israelis, deporting Arab citizens who attack Israeli soldiers and relaxing the security forces’ open-fire rules.

    But others who cast ballots for the list did not necessarily endorse those positions, analysts and voters themselves say, but were attracted to the party as the only remaining viable right-wing flagship or by its promises to increase internal security, reassert governance over under-policed areas, as well as to pass sweeping judicial reforms.

    The two-headed nature of the joint slate managed to draw voters interested in the party for separate, practical reasons, say experts. Religious Zionism head Bezalel Smotrich swept up support by being the best option available for national religious voters without another party; Otzma Yehudit leader Itamar Ben Gvir attracted a varied crowd of Israelis concerned about internal security amid Arab-Jewish clashes and a lingering terror wave…

    In May 2021, violence broke out between Israel’s Arab and Jewish citizens across several mixed cities in parallel to an ongoing conflict with the Hamas terror organization in the Gaza Strip. While Israel fights routinely in the West Bank, Gaza and its borders, violence between Jews and Arabs within its proper borders stunned Israelis.

    While the riots ended, a wave of terror attacks in early 2022, which has persisted at a low boil, has created “a feeling that there is an Arab public within Israel that wants to hurt Jews, something that wasn’t felt since October 2000,” when the Second Intifada began, said Sheleg. National religious political expert Asher Cohen, an associate professor at Bar Ilan University, called the May 2021 riots “the biggest springboard” for Otzma Yehudit and its leader Ben Gvir.

    “It’s already not in the territories, it’s here, in Lod, in Ramle, in Acre,” cities well within Israel’s sovereign borders. “People went into shock,” he said.

    Ben Gvir supporters themselves echo this analysis. Yaakov Matzlavi, 47, a shopkeeper and resident in Ramle, said most of his family shifted their vote to Ben Gvir “not because of ideology, but because of Operation Guardian of the Walls.” The official Israeli name for its conflict with Gaza that occurred at the same time as the rioting.

    Eliav Kakun, 38, also from Ramle, said that the riots and pervasive tension with segments of Arab society motivated him to switch his vote from Mizrahi Haredi party Shas to support Otzma Yehudit.

    “We don’t want them to take the state,” Kakun said, referring to what he called “bad Arabs.” He made his comments just out of earshot of neighboring “Arab friends.”

    Despite Ben Gvir having had no public administrative track record or even military experience — he was rejected from the army over his ultranationalist views and activities as a teenager — Kakun and other Ben Gvir voters in Ramle said it was important to “give the person a chance, to see what he can do.”

    Cohen argued that the outgoing government – sworn in June 2021 – did not adequately address security concerns for these voters.

    “Once the mainstream failed to answer the most pressing problems,” Cohen said, “people go to search for answers elsewhere.”

    This phenomenon, Cohen said, parallels a far-right shift among European voters who brought fringe parties in Sweden, Italy and France into the limelight, though in those cases voters were reacting against immigrants and progressive multiculturalism.

    Ben Gvir has carefully cultivated a perception of being tough on security and gives his voters a sense that “he will bring law and order,” said Moshe Hellinger, a political science professor at Bar Ilan University.

    In his bid to become police minister, Ben Gvir published a 10-point platform for increasing internal security on the election’s eve, including loosening live fire restrictions against Palestinian rioters and stone throwers, broadening immunity for security service personnel and issuing personal weapons for graduates of combat-rated military units.

    Just before the election results were finalized on Thursday, Ben Gvir reacted to a terror-motivated stabbing in Jerusalem by issuing a statement that “it’s time to back the soldiers and the police, to restore security to the streets, it’s time to put security in order in the country, it’s time to show who is the master of the house here, it’s time for a terrorist who goes out to carry out an attack to be eliminated!”

    Two weeks before the election, he had responded to unrest in Jerusalem’s flashpoint Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood by brandishing a handgun on its streets, after tweeting he was going in to protect Jews, and was filmed urging the Border Police officers who were protecting him to open fire on nearby Arab stone-throwers.
    Personally, I think the previous government handled the conflict well enough. No one anticipated that mobs of Arab Israelis would start lynching Israeli Jews in Lod and Acre, but that certainly pushed some voters further to right on security. Now they’ve got Ben Gvir in the government, who draws his gun when he feels threated by parking attendants doing their job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  5. #585
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The main difference is that one is Ashkenazi while the other is Sephardi/Mizrahi. Other than that, they don’t differ on much of anything that anyone outside their communities would care about.
    Well, there's one difference (though it doesn't amount to much in practical terms), Shas declares itself a zionist party, while UTJ is strictly a non-zionist party.

  6. #586

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    the Green Line, (the border established in 1967 between Israel and the neighboring countries)
    This is a mischaracterization.

    In actuality:
    The armistice agreements were clear (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent borders. The Egyptian-Israeli agreement stated "The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question."[1]

    The Jordanian-Israeli agreement stated: "... no provision of this Agreement shall in any way prejudice the rights, claims, and positions of either Party hereto in the peaceful settlement of the Palestine questions, the provisions of this Agreement being dictated exclusively by military considerations" (Art. II.2), "The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto." (Art. VI.9)[3]
    Not that it’s relevant. No Israeli government will ever recognize the green line from the Jordanian-Israeli armistice as a border.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #587
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Really hope they dont neuter the courts in Israel, it's about the only Near Eastern country with a robust and mostly fair participatory political system.

    Lawyers may be mostly lowlife scum and judges may just be mostly lazy lawyers but as part of an independent judiciary they are a sign of a healthy political ecosystem.

  8. #588

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    The irony:

    The High Court of Justice issued a sharp rebuke on Tuesday of the government’s recent request for yet another delay in the court’s order to evacuate the illegal Khan al-Ahmar Bedouin encampment in the West Bank.

    Justice Noam Sohlberg rejected the government’s request for a four-month extension for the submission of its position on the issue, and instead set a hearing for a request by the right-wing Regavim organization that the court issue a final order requiring the hamlet’s immediate evacuation and demolition.

    The government had requested a four-month postponement of the court’s interim order dating back to 2018 for the evacuation of Khan al-Ahmar to allow it to formulate a plan for carrying our the ruling.

    Regavim objected to would be the ninth such extension, and requested instead that the court issue a final order instructing the state to immediately demolish the Bedouin encampment.
    In other words, the government that’s trying to gimp the High Court because of the judicial branch’s alleged dominance by unelected leftists, continues to dodge the implementation of said court’s ruling in favor of right-wing activists. It’s almost as if the government is most concerned about protecting its leadership from corruption charges. I assume that the real reason for the filibuster is fear of the repercussions of international condemnation, yet such fears of international condemnation are apparently not significant enough for them to reconsider their proposed judicial overhaul.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  9. #589
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The irony:

    In other words, the government that’s trying to gimp the High Court because of the judicial branch’s alleged dominance by unelected leftists, continues to dodge the implementation of said court’s ruling in favor of right-wing activists. It’s almost as if the government is most concerned about protecting its leadership from corruption charges. I assume that the real reason for the filibuster is fear of the repercussions of international condemnation, yet such fears of international condemnation are apparently not significant enough for them to reconsider their proposed judicial overhaul.
    Politicians. The same the world over.

    Bigger picture surely Bibi has to go? I honestly believe the saw about changing politicians and he's been in power too long.

    Then again smart politicians scorch the earth and make coalitions with poor performers so the less horrible ones get forced out of politics: that way there's less viable alternatives "you can still be evil, just be the lesser of two evils, and make sure the greater evil is really bad".

    Still is better than all the neighbours, I just hope Israeli politics can elevate the standard a bit.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  10. #590
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Barcelona Mayor Ada Colau Cuts City's Ties With Israel Over Over 'Crime of Apartheid'...

    ... ending its symbolic 25-year-old "twin cities" relationship with Tel Aviv over the Israeli government's violent anti-Palestinian policies…She added that she is "temporarily" suspending Barcelona-Israel relations "until the Israeli authorities put an end to the system of violations of the Palestinian people and fully comply with the obligations imposed on them by international law."
    Barcelona has become the first city council to suspend ties with apartheid Tel Aviv in solidarity with the Palestinian people, a move that is reminiscent of the historic and courageous city councils that pioneered cutting links with apartheid South Africa," BNC said in a statement.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #591
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.


  12. #592

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Rather, she cut ties with Tel Aviv, where next to no one actually voted for the government. As you can imagine, there has been non-stop weeping in the streets ever since it was announced.

    Best part: “apartheid Tel Aviv”

    How can anyone take these fools seriously?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Bigger picture surely Bibi has to go? I honestly believe the saw about changing politicians and he's been in power too long.
    He’s positioned himself as a hero of the working class standing up against the Ashkenazi elites (which he is among) and anyone on the right who is against him is secretly a leftist. Terrorism has strengthened support for the far-right and high birth rates have contributed significant support for the Ultra-Orthodox parties, both of which Netanyahu panders to, despite sharing very little of their worldview. It should be noted that a lot of the new support for the far-right wasn’t about their agenda broadly speaking, but mostly because of their willingness to deal harshly with the terrorism threat.

    Although, Netanyahu would have had a lot more trouble forming a coalition if Israel’s far-left and Arab nationalist parties had not overestimated their own appeal and fell below the vote threshold due to refusing to come to vote-sharing agreements with somewhat aligned parties. Under normal circumstances, most Israelis would be happy to see those two parties completely fail, but them not taking any of the 120 seats paved the way for Netanyahu.

    Some excerpts reflecting the situation and discourse over the last few days:

    Justice Minister Yariv Levin on Sunday accused Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara and Supreme Court chief Esther Hayut of seeking to “carry out a coup” against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

    In a statement, Levin assailed a petition to the High Court that sought to force Netanyahu to take a leave of absence. The petition, filed last week by a good-governance watchdog group, argued that Netanyahu — in seeking to enact sweeping judicial changes — is in violation of a conflict of interest arrangement that bars him from involvement in matters that could impact his ongoing corruption trial.

    “An attempt to oust a prime minister against the law, while trampling on democratic choice, is no different from a putsch carried out with tanks,” claimed Levin…

    Recent reports in Hebrew media claimed Baharav-Miara was looking into the possibility of ordering Netanyahu to step down for violations of the conflict of interest agreement, in light of his public remarks backing the judicial overhaul and alleged actions to advance it. Those reports were denied by the attorney general’s office…

    Under the 2020 conflict of interest agreement, drawn up by then-attorney general Avichai Mandelblit to enable Netanyahu to stay on as prime minister even while on trial, Netanyahu cannot be involved in any matters that affect witnesses or other defendants in the trial, or in legislation that would impact the legal proceedings against him.

    He also cannot intervene in any issues related to the status of several top police and prosecution officials, in several fields under the responsibility of the Communications Ministry, or in the Judicial Selection Committee, which appoints judges to the Jerusalem District Court — where his trial is being conducted — and to the Supreme Court, which would hear any appeals in the case.
    Religious Zionism MK Simcha Rothman on Friday called to jail former attorney general Avichai Mandelblit for “incitement,” after the ex-official warned in an interview that the stark division in the country over the government’s judicial overhaul would likely end in violence.

    Rothman, who serves as chairman of the Knesset Constitution, Law and Justice Committee, is a key architect of the reform and his call echoes those of other government members to jail critical opponents.

    Mandelblit, who served as attorney general, under the previous government led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, gave a wide-ranging interview with Channel 12’s Uvda program on Thursday night, in which he warned the judicial reform was tantamount to “regime change” and would destroy the Israeli legal system.

    In the interview, Mandelblit spoke of the deep divide between the sides and warned the situation “will continue to deteriorate, it’s not over. It will end in violence; someone or some people will pay the price in blood. That’s what will happen.”

    Rothman responded to Mandelblit in a combative interview on Radio 103 FM on Friday, where he charged that the former attorney general should be locked up for incitement.

    “A person who talks about fixing the justice system and uses phrases such as ‘blood in the streets’ is a person who lacks responsibility, who calls for a rebellion and incites. The fact that this person was the attorney general is a total disgrace… he should be put in jail.” Rothman said.

    Citing a similarly strong warning made by former Supreme Court president Aharon Barak, Rothman opined that the concerns raised by the pair were heavily exaggerated “when all we are doing is advancing the judicial system, the separation of powers and restoration of the people’s sovereignty.”

    In a series of TV interviews in January, Barak described the reforms as a “string of poison pills” that, if materialized, would mark “the beginning of the end of the Third House” — the third period of Jewish national sovereignty, after the ancient First and Second Temple eras...

    New Hope head Gideon Sa’ar, who was the justice minister in the previous government led by Naftali Bennett and Lapid, defended Mendelblit, saying he never made any call for violence. “Rather, he expressed his fear that it would reach that stage.”

    Sa’ar accused Rothman of producing the “most serious social rift in the country’s history,” and said that MK’s call to jail Mendelblit was evidence of his intention to jail those who oppose the judicial makeover.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  13. #593
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Wow Bibi is literally Lazarus with a triple bypass, what an extraordinary arrangement to keep him in power. Is there no one else? Just by occupying the office he requires the courts be collared, but the fact this arrangement was even made suggests it is the Knesset that has become corrupted beyond functionality.

    I hate to see nitwit politicians skirting around declarations about blood and unilaterally demanding gaoling opponents (I bet he's not agreeing to his own party members being gaoled), that's brinkmanship to glade the hearts of Israel's enemies.

    I shouldn't get upset about this, but the survival of Israel as a fair and functional state matters to me.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  14. #594
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    So, since there is going to be a climate change that might render the entire Middle East uninhabitable by the end of the century. How is that working out. Plans?

  15. #595

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    So, since there is going to be a climate change that might render the entire Middle East uninhabitable by the end of the century. How is that working out. Plans?
    If any country will be alright in the Middle East, it will probably be Israel. It’s not really something I know much about, but Israel’s agricultural and desalination tech are the most advanced in the world. Both are considered matters of national security, as is preparation for heat waves up to 50°C, and these aren’t issues where there is any partisan disagreement.

    The places in Israel where almost everyone lives are typical Mediterranean climate, where it rains a lot in the winter. Currently, the water concerns are about agriculture over the summer. I was surprised to discover when I moved here that Tel Aviv rarely gets hotter than Seattle in summer, and in the summer of 2021, it was actually much hotter in the Pacific Northwest than in coastal Israel. It got up to 49.6°C in British Columbia. I also recall it often being hotter in Northern Europe than in Tel Aviv over this last summer. Historically, during warmer periods in Europe, Israel has been wetter than it is now. However, I have no idea if that fact is at all relevant to anthropogenic climate change, and I know the long-term planning being done is operating under the assumption that it is not.

    More pressing in the short term is the fact that buildings in Israel built before 1980 are vulnerable to a situation like what recently happened in Turkey. There’s a plan to upgrade them all, but so far it’s mostly only been carried out in the central (Tel Aviv) area, where there are major financial incentives. Again though, this isn’t really an area where there is partisan disagreement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  16. #596
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    How can anyone take these fools seriously?
    I'm surprised, my answer was..deleted?
    If I remember correctly, I answered in one short ironic sentence: If there is no apartheid, it is because there are no Palestinians. The fact that Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, or the fact that there are many Italians alive today who are directly descended from people who lived in Italy during the Roman era, is irrelevant to the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    Netanyahu denies Palestinians exist

    Former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has again denied the existence of the Palestinian people, calling their historic land a "barren mess - a ruin" before the creation of Israel…These spurious claims have been repeatedly made by right-wing Israelis to justify the existence of Israel following the mass ethnic cleansing of Palestinian villages but have been completely dismissed by respected historians and sociologists.

    Netanyahu Told Jordan Peterson Arabs Expelled Jews From the Land of Israel – Historians Say He Is Distorting Facts - Haaretz


    Benjamin Netanyahu, and the uses and abuses of history - ABC
    One of Netanyahu’s principal arguments is from history. Asked by Peterson to speak about Theodor Herzl, the founder the modern Zionist movement at the end of the nineteenth century, Netanyahu told us that he calls Herzl “the modern Moses”, and then used that as a slightly slippery segue straight into the original Moses of the Bible. Herzl was forgotten.
    But Netanyahu’s historical excursions were not over. He explained that the Jews had lived in what is now Israel for some two thousand years, beginning three and a half thousand years ago. His numbers were carefully chosen. 3,500 years minus 2,000 brings us to the sixth century or so. Until then, Netanyahu said, the Jews had conquered and been conquered; they had been treated badly and not so badly, but they had stayed in their land. “The loss of our land”, Netanyahu asserted, “actually occurred with the Arab conquest” in the seventh century. At that time the Arabs burst out of the Arabian Peninsula, conquering what is now Israel, “taking the land of the Jewish farmer”, and the Jews were “flung to the far corners of the earth.” Now they are back, though there are no longer very many Jewish farmers.
    It’s an emotive tale. Netanyahu is an experienced and effective speaker. And it offers a solid argument for the recovery, the re-conquest, of the land, the return of the people to their home — the home from which it was expelled by the ancestors of the current occupants. The problem is, whatever we may think about the state of Israel and its right to exist, little of this account is actually true.
    ----
    Nadeem Karkabi is a lecturer in the Department of Anthropology at the University of Haifa. Jewish Religious Nationalism in Israel and the Racist Exclusion of Palestinians
    The Zionist settler-colonial project distinguishes little between Palestinian citizens in Israel and Palestinian subjects living under military rule in the West Bank or a militarized siege in the Gaza Strip.
    Haifa, why Haifa? It’s not a coincidence. Haifa was an important cosmopolitan center prior to the loss of its majority Palestinian population in 1948. Its residents have dubbed it the "Palestinian cultural capital in Israel".
    As a side note, according to Haaretz, during the formation of Israel in the late 1940s, hundreds of Jewish women were branded as enemies for marrying Arab men, resulting in exclusion, isolation, and in some cases murder. The Jewish Women Who Posed an 'Existential Threat' to Israel


    Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International
    Israel's illegal occupation of Palestinian territory - UN
    General Assembly Adopts 33 Resolutions Recommended by its Fourth Committee,
    ---

    U.S., European Top Diplomats Slam Israel's Plan to Build 10,000 Housing Units in West Bank.

    That’s good to hear, but come on, let’s be real. Nothing will happen that can stop it. It is the fruit of the impunity granted by the entire international community to the Israeli leaders, whoever they are and whatever they do.

    Israel: UN rights chief calls for end to 'culture of impunity'

    ---

    Regional monarchs nervously watching events in Israel

    What recent bloodshed in Jenin, East Jerusalem, and Jericho means for the greater Middle East remains to be seen. But, with the most right-wing government in Israel’s history now in power and Palestinians justifiably worried about it inciting settler violence, Gulf Cooperation Council officials are closely monitoring the highly volatile situation.
    …As polls demonstrate, Emirati and Bahraini public opinion opposes normalization, as is the case across the Arab world. At a time when Israeli violence against Palestinians intensifies, regional governments cannot afford to ignore views held by their Arab/Muslim constituents. Suffice to say, while Israel’s then-prime minister, Naftali Bennett, paid visits to the UAE and Bahrain last year, Benjamin Netanyahu probably won’t be a guest in any Gulf Arab country in 2023.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  17. #597
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Regional monarchs nervously watching events in Israel
    HA hahahahaha... Really who cares what bastions of human rights like gulf monarchies think! Really if they so concerned about the Palestinians they could have funding massive investment and aid for them in the West bank and Gaza and their diaspora community. Even welcomed them as citizens in their countries ...but oh wait is that another skyscraper with a tennis court ideal I see or mega yacht or the world cup to finance and build with slave labor?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #598
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    HA hahahahaha... Really who cares what bastions of human rights like gulf monarchies think!
    Good question, ask Biden...



    But that is not the point.You haven't read the whole article.It matters for Israel. Just a small excerpt,
    Saudi Arabia slammed the raid as constituting “serious violations of international law” and called for ending the Israeli occupation. With Netanyahu having spoken to high-ranking U.S. officials and the media about his ambition to bring Riyadh into the Abraham Accords, this objective appears unrealistic in the absence of serious progress on Israel’s part in terms of respecting Palestinian rights.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  19. #599

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Trouble within the coalition...

    From yesterday:

    National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir has clashed in recent days with both Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Israel Police Commissioner Kobi Shabtai over his demands to step up the demolition of illegally built Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem, Hebrew-language media reported Tuesday.

    Multiple reports said that in both cases conversations were heated and “voices were raised” and in the end, Ben Gvir vowed to push ahead with demolitions and was ordering the call-up of three reserve Border Police companies.

    Ben Gvir, of the far-right Otzma Yehudit party, has vowed to take a more aggressive stance against Palestinian homes that were built without the necessary permits from Israel in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. He has framed demolition of such structures as part of Israel’s efforts to combat Palestinian terror, even though there have been no links between the owners of the homes razed for a lack of permit in recent weeks and security offenses.

    Ben Gvir’s first clash occurred during and after Sunday’s cabinet meeting to decide on what Netanyahu called “broader action” after three Israelis, including 6- and 8-year-old brothers, were killed in a ramming attack in Jerusalem on Friday.

    According to the Ynet news site, tempers were raised during the meeting and in a follow-up conversation between Ben Gvir and Netanyahu.

    Ben Gvir reportedly demanded that he be allowed to raze an uninhabited 14-story building constructed without permits next to the security barrier in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Sawarha. He reportedly called for army engineers to implode the building.

    When Netanyahu asked him to show restraint, noting that demolishing the building would likely spark an international backlash, Ben Gvir reportedly shouted at Netanyahu: “I’m tired of carrying out a policy of appeasement.”

    The Ynet news site quoted sources close to Netanyahu as saying, “The Arabs would see it like the bombing of Dahieh in Beirut,” a reference to the massive Israeli Air Force strikes that leveled much of the Hezbollah terror group’s stronghold during the 2006 war.

    Netanyahu then told Ben Gvir that there were “diplomatic reasons” not to demolish the building.

    Ben Gvir reportedly yelled at Netanyahu: “What diplomatic considerations? Our children were murdered. The world will understand that they killed children and a sovereign state implements its laws in its capital.”

    “Children were killed and you are worried about annoying the Arabs,” he reportedly said.

    “They killed our children, there is no reason we should not respond,” Ben Gvir said, asserting that the building also presented a security threat to Israel as it overlooked the barrier and Palestinians throw stones from it at the security forces.

    Ben Gvir then clashed with police chief Shabtai on Monday, multiple Hebrew media reports said.

    The national security minister reportedly demanded that the police step up the pace of carrying out building demolitions in East Jerusalem.

    “This is not how you make decisions,” Shabtai reportedly retorted, according to the Haaretz daily.



    Ben Gvir was also prevented from launching a sweeping police crackdown in East Jerusalem.

    Shortly after Friday’s attack, he released a statement saying he’d told police to gear up for a major anti-terror crackdown starting Sunday, specifically mentioning a massive 2002 military campaign against West Bank terror groups. However, Ben Gvir lacks the authority to approve such an operation on his own and his comments were dismissed by a senior government official.

    This is not the first time Ben Gvir has feuded with police brass in recent days. Over the weekend he lashed out at Jerusalem police after they failed to use force to disperse anti-government protesters.
    Netanyahu is neither liked nor respected by his “allies” to the right.

    From October 2022:

    In a recording aired Sunday by Israeli television, far-right leader Bezalel Smotrich is heard saying opposition chief Benjamin Netanyahu “desperately wanted” to ally with the Islamist Ra’am party after the elections last year, and that the former prime minister was “lying through his teeth” for denying this.

    Smotrich, who heads the Religious Zionism party, also called Netanyahu “trouble” and said he may yet be found guilty in his criminal trial, according to the tape played by the Kan public broadcaster, which reported the comments were made in a conversation during the past year.

    Netanyahu is widely reported to have made Ra’am generous offers to clinch its support for him forming a government after the March 2021 elections, but Smotrich ruled out such an alliance at the time, and Netanyahu later denied ever seeking it. Ra’am, an Islamist party, joined the coalition led by Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid, which collapsed after a year, triggering next week’s elections.

    Since the now-outgoing government was formed last June, Netanyahu and his Likud party have railed against its inclusion of Ra’am, claiming the coalition was leaning on the backing of “terror supporters” — though Ra’am has repeatedly condemned terror.

    “If I’d wanted to take two parliamentary seats from Bibi, I should have laid into him,” Smotrich said, using Netanyahu’s nickname. “He’s lying through his teeth. He didn’t want to go with Ra’am? He was desperate to. I’m the only one who stood in the way.”

    But since Netanyahu is denying it, Smotrich said, “I’m toeing the line. I don’t lie when I’m interviewed [about it]. I say, I’m not concerned with the past — it’s not important.”

    ...

    As for why he opposes Ra’am’s inclusion, despite the party’s stated desire to set aside the Palestinian issue and focus on civil matters, Smotrich said he wants to help the Arab public, but does not want Arab parties to achieve things, as this would “puff up the chests” of the Arab public.

    ...

    Smotrich also said Netanyahu, Israel’s longest-serving prime minister, will leave the political scene eventually.

    “Netanyahu won’t stay forever,” he said. “Physics and biology will take their course. Eventually, he’ll be found guilty in court or I don’t know what. We need a little patience.”

    “There’s no doubt that Netanyahu is trouble, alright? But now you have to choose between troubles.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #600
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Netanyahu is neither liked nor respected by his “allies” to the right.
    Indeed, but Netanyahu loves the power- and returns repeatedly to the power. With or without B.N., the two-state solution has always been an alibi for Israeli governments. There were many Zionists (Martin Buber, Hannah Arendt in 1948, etc.) who were in favor of binationalism, from the idea that a Jewish state could not have existed in the Middle East. The big problem is that, since 1948, the State of Israel is not truly democratic. The state developed political liberalism, pluralism and liberal civil laws. But from the beginning, Israel defined itself as the state of the Jewish people, not of the Israelis. 20% or 25% of its population is Arab and the state does not belong to them. We can call it a liberal ethnocracy. And it's not just Arabs that suffer discrimination, it's also that Jews consider themselves superior. Even the Jewish Zionist left accepted the fact that Israel is the state of the Jews and not the Israelis, and it could have been easy for them to say otherwise and it was easy for them to say the opposite. But no. The explanation is the reliance on American Jewry; Biden is limited by the Jewish lobby (1). Only one American president has not relied on the Jewish lobby: Carter forced Israel to make peace with Egypt. Here in Europe, too, nationalism and religion are beginning to merge, and this symbiosis is the new threat to democracies.
    (1) Biden drops candidate's nomination to human rights post over Israel remarks.
    The Biden administration has withdrawn the nomination of a leading law professor to an international human rights post, for describing Israel as an “apartheid state” and accusing the top Democrat in Congress of being “bought” by pro-Israel groups.
    ---
    Shlomo Sand, watch the enlightening Interview in English to the RTP International, a few days ago.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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