View Poll Results: Which party would you vote for?

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  • Likud (Conservative)

    3 13.64%
  • Jewish Home (Right-Wing)

    0 0%
  • Yesh Atid (Centrism)

    0 0%
  • Labour (Center-Left)

    1 4.55%
  • New Right (right-wing)

    1 4.55%
  • Joint Union (Israeli Arab)

    1 4.55%
  • Kulanu (Center)

    0 0%
  • Shas (Sephardic-Mizrahi Orthodoxy)

    1 4.55%
  • United Torah Judaism (Ashkenazi Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Yachad (Ultra-Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Hatnuah (Liberalism)

    0 0%
  • Ta'al (Arab Nationalism)

    3 13.64%
  • Israel Resilience Party (Center-Right)

    0 0%
  • Metetz (Green-Left)

    7 31.82%
  • Yisrael Beiteinu (Zionism)

    0 0%
  • Gesher (Right-Wing)

    1 4.55%
  • Zehut (Libertarianism)

    3 13.64%
  • Other (Please, specify)

    1 4.55%
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Thread: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

  1. #501
    Tribunus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    That's impossible,Cyclops.As Oren Yiftachel, Professor of Political Geography, Ben Gurion University, clearly explains,


    Take note,"‘selective openness… which allows for public protest, free speech, and periodic election is largely an illusion".
    I don't accept that Israeli politics is illusory, I think its very real, and whle it does not always function well it does give the opportunity for memebers of the communtiy to choose their representatives. The fact Netanyahu has been voted out of office twice seems to support this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The reason why Israel does not have a constitution,as Amnon Rubinstein (the founding father of Israeli constitutional law) explains,

    Amnon Rubinstein, concludes, "Can Israel be both Jewish and democratic? The answer… is far from simple..."
    In fact, the answer is no.
    There is only one solution: a two states solution,based on pre 1967 lines.UN two-state solution on 'pre-1967 lines'
    Israel was established by the UN under a tortuous formula that satisfied neither the Israeli or the Palestinian Arab side. Both sides have paid for that, but even more so the adventurism of surrounding states and leaders have led to bloodshed. Israel also engaged in terrorism and war (most egregiously in Lebanon) but less so than most factions in the region.

    I'm pretty sure Israel has a functioning constitution. Netanyahu has been voted out twice. If thats an illusion then so is pretty much every liberal state on Earth.

    I think Israel is committed to the two state solution, although factions in the state pursue their own loony agenda (as you'd expect in a pluralist state). They have a bunch of different PoVs in there.

    Most people and leaders in the Palestinian state (statelets? Gaza seems to operate independently) do not seem to support the two state solution: despite great diversity in faith and culture in pre-mandate (1918) Palestine, the Arab Palestinian state(s) is (are) 97% Sunni Muslim, whereas Israel encompasses Muslims (inc Sunni, Druze etc) Christian (a rainbow there) and all sorts of Jews.

    I think the Arab Palestinian state project is crippled by Islamist backers who retain it as a vehicle for their aims. Get all the foreign fingers out of the pie and maybe we can have peace.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  2. #502
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    @nhytgbvfeco2

    Do see some way that would link the west bank and Gaza in a two state solution and thus give the Palestinian state a sea port? A secure route for both sides other wise Gaza seems like a problem that will always be a problem because as far as I can see Egypt is not all cheerfully opening their border
    Last edited by conon394; July 16, 2021 at 08:25 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #503
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    @nhytgbvfeco2

    Do see some way that would link the west bank and Gaza in a two state solution and thus give the Palestinian state a sea port? A secure route for both sides other wise Gaza seems like a problem that will always be a problem because as far as I can Egypt is not all cheerfully opening their border
    Well sure. The Trump plan, for example, had a solution for this: an underground tunnel linking the two, and that's probably the best way to go about it. Previous plans had offered a road connecting the two, but that would have to be subject to Israeli checkpoints and there'd always be the risk that someone would go off road, whereas a tunnel wouldn't need to have much direct oversight by Israel at all. It would be quite the project though, and of course can't work so long as Gaza is ruled by a different government that is hostile to the one in Ramallah. Gaza would need to be not under the thumb of a terrorist organisation for Israel to agree to let them operate a sea-port.

  4. #504

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I'm pretty sure Israel has a functioning constitution.
    They have the Basic Laws:

    The Basic Laws of Israel are thirteen constitutional laws of the State of Israel, and some of them can only be changed by a supermajority vote in the Knesset (with varying requirements for different Basic Laws and sections). Many of these laws are based on the individual liberties that were outlined in the Israeli Declaration of Independence.[1] The Basic Laws deal with the formation and role of the principal institutions of the state, and with the relations between the state's authorities. They also protect the country's civil rights, although some of these rights were earlier protected at common law by the Supreme Court of Israel.[2] The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty enjoys super-legal status, giving the Supreme Court the authority to disqualify any law contradicting it, as well as protection from Emergency Regulations.[3][4]

    The Basic Laws were intended to be draft chapters of a future Israeli constitution,[5] which has been postponed since 1950; they act as a de facto constitution until their future incorporation into a formal, unitary, written constitution.[6] Israel is one of 6 countries (along with Canada, New Zealand, San Marino, Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom) that functions according to an uncodified constitution consisting of both material constitutional law (based upon cases and precedents), common law, and the provisions of these formal statutes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  5. #505
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    The declaration of Independence of of Israel does not speak in the name of “we the people” or “we the citizens” but in the name only of Jewish people.
    -----
    Generally speaking, I'm against ethno-religious states in Europe. Yet,I have nothing against an ethno religious Jewish democracy in Israel. Strange as it may seem,in my opinion, the state of Israel is the exception that proves the rule, deserves this exceptional status. Why? simple answer: there is no other option.Persecution of Jews has been a major part of Jewish history, over the centuries,keep in mind the persecution of the Jews in the 12th century during the Great plagues, the Inquisition, the radical antisemitism in Germany and France during the 19th century, the antisemitism in the French Third Republic (Dreyfus rings a bell?)... and I could go on ad nausea.Simply put, The History of the Jews is a history of persecution. Hitler is the "cherry on top of the cake".
    ---
    I think Israel is committed to the two state solution
    The annexation and colonization of the West Bank is incompatible with a two-states solution. Bennett opposes a two-state solution and is a staunch supporter of Jewish settlements/ the annexation of the West Bank.UN urges Israel to halt building of settlements immediately

    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  6. #506
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The declaration of Independence of of Israel does not speak in the name of “we the people” or “we the citizens” but in the name only of Jewish people.



    The annexation and colonization of the West Bank is incompatible with a two-states solution. Bennett opposes a two-state solution and is a staunch supporter of Jewish settlements/ the annexation of the West Bank.UN urges Israel to halt building of settlements immediately
    Bennet only wants to annex part of what you're calling the west bank. Not the whole thing.
    You're right though, Bennet indeed opposes the two state solution, and so does Sa'ar. Everyone else in the coalition, however, supports it.
    Last edited by nhytgbvfeco2; July 19, 2021 at 11:41 AM.

  7. #507
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post


    Israel, isn't a "nation of citizens". Isreal is an ethno religious state. Nothing wrong with that, as I said before.It became an absolute necessity.
    ----
    "The nation of citizens does not derive its identity from some common ethnic and cultural properties, but rather from the praxis of citizens who actively exercise their civil rights"
    Jurgen Habermas
    -----
    You're right though, Bennet indeed opposes the two state solution,
    "Anyone who rejects the two-state solution, won’t bring a one-state solution. They will instead bring one war, not one state. A bloody war with no end"
    Shimon Peres, 2009
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  8. #508
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Israel, isn't a "nation of citizens". Isreal is an ethno religious state. Nothing wrong with that, as I said before.It became an absolute necessity.
    Well, it's a nation state, not an ethno state, which by definition is a state in which citizenship is restricted to members of an ethnicity.
    It's also a secular state, not a religious one. Israel in fact has no official religion.
    "Anyone who rejects the two-state solution, won’t bring a one-state solution. They will instead bring one war, not one state. A bloody war with no end"
    Shimon Peres, 2009
    I agree. As I've mentioned several times now I support a two-state solution.

  9. #509
    Tribunus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Israel is not really a nation (which frankly is a synonym for ethnos) state either as it gives special place to two languages, Arabic and Hebrew (although the recent constitutional changes unfortunately elevate one above the other, they both are still privileged). Israel does serve the historic function of "a safe homeland for Jews", which given millenia of victimisation and at least one serious genocide attempt seems to be a reasonable political project, which was the aim of the founding terrorists. They were forced by the UN to be more inclusive.

    IIRC Fatah/PA does tolerate "Palestinian Jews" but I'm not sure how the Islamist backers that have hijacked Gaza feel about that. Given the genocidal campaigns in Syria etc by Islamist groups I can't imagine they split hairs like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Classic. Another variation on the theme:

    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  10. #510
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Israel is not really a nation (which frankly is a synonym for ethnos) state either as it gives special place to two languages, Arabic and Hebrew
    There are 55 bilingual countries in the world. Israel is a ethno ( Jews)-religious (Jewish religion) state for Jews.As I said before, the declaration of Independence of of Israel speaks in the name only of Jewish people.
    ...The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the reestablishment of the Jewish state, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gate to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations...this recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their independent state may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, like all other nations, in its own sovereign state.
    The Declaration is divided into four parts:
    1) a biblical, historical, and international legal case for the existence of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel.
    2) the self-evident right of the Jewish people to claim statehood.
    3) the actual declaration of statehood.
    4) statements about how the state would operate, including an enumeration of citizen rights.
    The Constitution was constitution was postponed indefinitely in June 1950.
    Read also, "Why not Judea? Zion? State of the Hebrews?".

    ------
    Completely off-topic. Sorry.
    Shirley Pinto, the first-ever deaf MK, is sworn into Knesset ...
    Shirley Pinto, the first deaf lawmaker in the Knesset’s history, gave her maiden speech to the Knesset plenum in sign language on Monday evening.She is a long-time activist for disability-related issues, particularly those dealing with the hearing-impaired. “Alongside me stand 1.8 million men, women, and children with physical, mental, emotional, and intellectual disabilities”, says Shirley Pinto. She was met with a standing ovation, made up of a mix of applause and hand waving (“deaf applause”) by the Knesset members present.
    Pinto is of Jewish/Portuguese descent and was interviewed today by a Portuguese TV channel. Too bad this woman belongs to a right wing, ultra nationalist party- but I forgive you, Shirley.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #511
    Tribunus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    There are 55 bilingual countries in the world. Israel is a ethno ( Jews)-religious (Jewish religion) state for Jews.As I said before, the declaration of Independence of of Israel speaks in the name only of Jewish people.

    The Declaration is divided into four parts:
    1) a biblical, historical, and international legal case for the existence of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel.
    2) the self-evident right of the Jewish people to claim statehood.
    3) the actual declaration of statehood.
    4) statements about how the state would operate, including an enumeration of citizen rights.
    The Constitution was constitution was postponed indefinitely in June 1950.
    Read also, "Why not Judea? Zion? State of the Hebrews?".

    ------
    Completely off-topic. Sorry.
    Shirley Pinto, the first-ever deaf MK, is sworn into Knesset ...

    Pinto is of Jewish/Portuguese descent and was interviewed today by a Portuguese TV channel. Too bad this woman belongs to a right wing, ultra nationalist party- but I forgive you, Shirley.
    OK "a constitution" was postponed, Israel has a functioning political system based on written and unwritten codes. Its a functioning state and the Basic Law 9part ofg its constitution) places Hebrew and Arabic in a special place.

    Yes Israel was born of a bunch of movements including several very religious Zionist groups but ultimately the heavy lifting was done by socialists and the legal basis was supplied by the UN. I though YHWH was left out of the declaration?

    Now while I share you discomfort with right wing nationalists, Israel has many parties to represent all the idiots living there, just as my country has many parties for all the idiots living here. I really believe Israel is a functioning representative state with a more or less fair constitution. It definitely compares favourably with every single one of its neighbours. It is less racist, less bigoted, less terrorist (even though it was founded by terrorists and its intel services engage in rough play) than everyone else in the neighbourhood, but its gets the blowtorch.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  12. #512
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    There are 55 bilingual countries in the world. Israel is a ethno ( Jews)-religious (Jewish religion) state for Jews.As I said before, the declaration of Independence of of Israel speaks in the name only of Jewish people.
    noun: ethno-state


    • a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.





    Israel is not an ethno state. It is a nation state.
    Israel is not a religious state. It has no official religion. It is a secular state.
    Completely off-topic. Sorry.
    Shirley Pinto, the first-ever deaf MK, is sworn into Knesset ...

    Pinto is of Jewish/Portuguese descent and was interviewed today by a Portuguese TV channel. Too bad this woman belongs to a right wing, ultra nationalist party- but I forgive you, Shirley.
    I'd say that the election of a deaf person for the first time in Israel's history on a thread discussing the election is on-topic

  13. #513
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Israel is not an ethno state... It is a secular state.
    Let's agree on disagree. Read the full Jewish Nation state Law.

    The fulfillment of the right of national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people
    Our constitution says,
    All persons whom the law or an international convention considers to be Portuguese citizens are such citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I'd say that the election of a deaf person for the first time in Israel's history on a thread discussing the election is on-topic
    I agree

    Edit.
    Here, The black woman with a stutter who changed the course of
    "I stutter when I speak, not when I think. The danger in parliament is individuals who stutter when they think," Katar Moreira told Efe in an interview.
    It is is a stutter that is very evident and that it is even quite spectacular, so it is absolutely impossible for someone to listen to me and pretend that I am not stuttering.
    Joacine's first speech in Parliament. Everyone waits, patiently...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    ---
    On another interesting topic.
    On the last 14th, Yair Lapid spoke at the 7th Global Forum to Combat Anti-Semitism in Jerusalem and said "Anti-Semitism is racism, let us therefore speak to all those who oppose racism."

    Lapid began by saying, “It’s time that we tell the right story about anti-semites”. I quote, from, "Yair Lapid at the Conference Against Antisemitism in Jerusalem",
    On the 27th of December 1944 my father was a child in Budapest Ghetto. 600 people lived there in a basement smaller than the hall you are sitting in today... My grandfather had already died in the gas chambers of Mauthausen concentration camp... This story comes with a question: why?
    Why did they hate him so much?
    Why would they want to kill a 13-year-old boy that they didn’t know, that hadn’t wronged them?
    My father didn’t write the protocols of the elders of zion. He wasn’t an international banker. He didn’t meet any Jewish stereotype. Why did they want to kill him? The first step is dehumanisation of those you hate. They’re not really human. They’re a faceless group on which you can deflect all your fears, hatred and prejudice. The Jew you know loves their children, the Jew you don’t know hates your children.

    So the question isn’t ‘what kind of person is the Jew?’ but rather: what kind of person can have so much hate for someone that they don’t know? What kind of person is so full of hate, poison, prejudice and racism that they’d want to kill a harmless child?
    We have been defensive for too long. For too long we’ve thought that we need to tell the right story about the Jews so that the antisemites would stop hating us. I want to propose the opposite:

    It’s time that we tell the right story about antisemites. It’s time that we tell the world what we face. Antisemites weren’t only in the ghetto in Budapest. The antisemites were the slave traders who threw chained slaves into the ocean. The antisemites were the the Hutu tribe members in Rwanda that slaughtered the Tutsis. The antisemites are those Muslims who have killed more than 20 million fellow Muslims in the past decade.

    The antisemites are ISIS and Boko Haram. Antisemites are those who beat young LGBT people to death. The antisemites are all those who persecute people not for what they did, but for who they are, for what they were born as. Antisemitism isn’t the first name of hatred, but its surname. It’s everyone who is so filled with hatred that they want to destroy, persecute and expel people simply for being different to them. The Jewish people rightly expect the world to remember the Holocaust. It was the peak of hatred. It demonstrates what happens when no stands up to hatred. The fight is not between antisemites and Jews, but between antisemites and everyone who believes in the values of freedom, justice and humanity.

    Antisemitism is racism, so let’s talk to all those who oppose racism. Antisemitism is extremism, so let’s cooperate with everyone who is afraid of extremism. Antisemitism is hatred of outsiders, so let’s recruit anyone who was ever an outsider and tell them – this is your fight too”.
    ----------
    The nationalist right, starting with Netanyahu, immediately opened fire on Lapid, seeking to quash the debate he opened. Says Bibi in a response to Lapid: "The historical truth is that anti-Semitism was hatred of Jews, and the new anti-Semitism is hatred of the State of Israel."

    Dan Illuz, who represents the Zionist Organization of American in Israel, accused Lapid of playing into the hands of the “Israel haters” . He said,” You damaged our ability to fight against anti-Semitism on campuses, in international organizations, in governments and in institutions”.

    Lapid commented “Over the last day, representatives of the radical right have attacked the speech I gave to the Global Forum on Anti-Semitism in Jerusalem. It turns out that it is not just Israeli society that these people are trying to ruin. They are even willing to help anti-Semites in order to score political points.

    Haaretz responds, "It is an outrageous nationalist claim that places the Jewish people at the center of history and relegates the other victims of racism to a secondary place." Lapid has started a vital antisemitism debate in Israel. Let's Haaretz ...


    Lapid also says,
    Another problem is Israel's use of anti-Semitism to refute criticism of the policy of occupation of the Palestinian territories. Such criticism is automatically qualified as anti-Semitism. This has been an effective strategy, particularly in Europe.

    For years, Netanyahu manipulated anti-Semitism to suit his political interests. He had no qualms about giving cover to the nationalist leaders of Hungary and Poland, the same ones who deny the anti-Semitism that victimized Polish and Hungarian Jews. He himself prevented the Israeli ambassador in Budapest from denouncing Viktor Orbán's anti-Semitic acts
    Yesh Atid: As PM, Lapid would demand Orban apology for ...


    The Holocaust was unique, but: well said, Lapid!
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 24, 2021 at 03:26 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  14. #514
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Let's agree on disagree. Read the full Jewish Nation state Law.


    Our constitution says,
    The section from the Portuguese constitution talks about citizenship. The section from the Israeli nation state law does not. You're comparing sections discussing differing topics.



    Haaretz responds, "It is an outrageous nationalist claim that places the Jewish people at the center of history and relegates the other victims of racism to a secondary place." Lapid has started a vital antisemitism debate in Israel. Let's Haaretz ...
    Typical Haaretz. Yes, Jews should be in the centre of a discussion about hatred of Jews. Duh.
    Much like how a debate on victims of slavery wouldn't change the focus to anti-semetism or to hatred of Roma.
    Lapid also says,
    Another problem is Israel's use of anti-Semitism to refute criticism of the policy of occupation of the Palestinian territories. Such criticism is automatically qualified as anti-Semitism. This has been an effective strategy, particularly in Europe.
    This I agree with, labelling people as anti-semites willy nilly doesn't help at all. And I wouldn't say it has been effective at all, au contraire.

  15. #515
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The section from the Portuguese constitution talks about citizenship. The section from the Israeli nation state law does not.
    Precisely. As I said before- let's agree to disagree.

    (PDF) Contradictions between citizenship and nationality

    Israeli Jewish ethnicity is itself the product of Zionist nationalism, one whose existence depends on the hierarchical structure of inequality through which Jewish nationalism dominates non-Jews.
    In fact, it’s interesting to note that 20 percent of the population(Palestinian citizens of Israel) are not conscripted in the Israel IDF- and face poor access to education, jobs, and services. The law removed Arabic as an official language: Arabic was an official language in Israel for 70 years, 2 months and 5 days
    Sometimes what a law says is more important than what it does.
    ...and said the Jewish people have a unique “right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel.” Let's be clear - Israel's survival depends on it.
    The Palestinian citizens of Israel are second-lass citizens. That's because they aren't Jews.They have two options - to stay as they are, if that makes them feel good, or to be integrated into the independent Palestinian state in the future - if one day that happens.
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 29, 2021 at 03:28 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  16. #516
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Precisely. As I said before- let's agree to disagree.
    ..What do you mean "exactly"? It's like if we were arguing about how dictionary A defines oranges and to strengthen your point you've provided dictionary B's definition on apples and compared the two.
    Are you trying to argue that Jews aren't an ethnicity?

    In fact, it’s interesting to note that 20 percent of the population(Palestinian citizens of Israel) are not conscripted in the Israel IDF
    Are you saying that them not being force conscripted is discriminatory?
    Can you think perhaps of another demographic that isn't conscripted? Maybe.. Ultra-Orthodox Jews? Are they also being discriminated against?

    The law removed Arabic as an official language: Arabic was an official language in Israel for 70 years, 2 months and 5 days
    Yes. And?
    ...and said the Jewish people have a unique “right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel.” Let's be clear - Israel's survival depends on it.
    Self determination means: "the process by which a group of people, usually possessing a certain degree of national consciousness, form their own state and choose their own government."
    So yes, the Jewish state is the outcome of Jewish self-determination. So in other words Arabs cannot form their own state in Israel. I think you'll find that Israel is far from the only state forbidding the formation of other states within its territory.
    The Palestinian citizens of Israel are second-lass citizens. That's because they aren't Jews. They have two options - to stay as they are, if that makes them feel good, or to be integrated into the independent Palestinian state in the future - if one day that happens.
    They are not second class citizens, they are full fledged citizens.

  17. #517
    Tribunus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    I think Arab Muslims and Christians in Israel are not Palestinian Israelis, they are Arab Israelis?

    Calling one state Palestine plainly indicates its project to eliminate Israel, which occupies roughly half of Palestine. "Muslim Palestine", or Non Jewish Palestine", or some other form of words would be a step in the right fdirection.

    I may be talking nonsense of course, Modern Israel does not conform to any historical version of Israel we know of, so a remade Palestine by the same token might well be compatible with coexistence.

    I do wish there was less desire to annihilate Israel, I think the state passes the reality test, of firstly actually functioning (unlike a grab bag of other states) and secondly doing good to its citizens and (by and large) the world. While I definitely understand the PoV of Palestinians wanting "invaders evicted from stolen land" (I am descended from grudge bearing Irish) and "their illegal state dismantled", as a principle that argument if applied generally would lead to a holocaust in the billions.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  18. #518
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I think Arab Muslims and Christians in Israel are not Palestinian Israelis, they are Arab Israelis?
    Most Israeli-Arabs define themselves as palestinians. Though at the same time most of them also oppose their city/village being part of a palestinian state through land transfer.
    Calling one state Palestine plainly indicates its project to eliminate Israel, which occupies roughly half of Palestine. "Muslim Palestine", or Non Jewish Palestine", or some other form of words would be a step in the right fdirection.
    Eh, I don't think that that's really necessary, the same can be said of the name Israel, the ancient kingdom controlled most of Jordan's population centers and part of Lebanon up to and including Sidon.

  19. #519

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Most Israeli-Arabs define themselves as palestinians.
    I think that impression comes from a significant vocal minority, but it appears not to be the case:

    According to preliminary data from the Jewish People Policy Institute's (JPPI) upcoming annual Pluralism Index for 2020, over the past year there has been a significant change in the way Israeli Arabs identify themselves.

    According to the survey, conducted by Prof. Camille Fuchs of Tel Aviv University, about a quarter of Israeli minorities (23%) define themselves primarily as "Israeli" and half (51%) self-identify as "Israeli-Arab."

    The proportion of non-Jewish people who define themselves primarily as "Palestinian" now stands at around 7%, down from 18% this time last year.

    Moreover, there was a sizable increase in the number of Arabs who define themselves as Israeli - that number rose from 5% last year to 23% this year.

    According to Shmuel Rosner, one of the people who conducted the study for the Pluralism Index at the JPPI said that "these figures indicate a significant change in the self-determination of Israeli Arabs at the end of an election year, in which there was widespread discussion regarding the question of Israeli Arabs' participation in the political arena and social fabric of Israel."

    Another question on the survey asked respondents to rate how much they agree with the phrase "I feel like a real Israeli."

    Most Arabs responded that they either agree completely (65%) or somewhat agree (33%) with the statement.

    Among Muslim Arabs, the vast majority who "feel" Israeli stands at 61%. Nearly one in five Arabs in Israel (18%) say otherwise.
    It almost certainly differs regionally. I assume that in Haifa, they're much more likely to identify as Arab-Israelis compared to the Triangle, where most probably consider themselves to be Palestinians. Nevertheless, as you mentioned:

    Leaders and residents of Arab-Israeli towns in the so-called Triangle fumed on Wednesday after US President Donald Trump’s peace plan proposed including their villages southeast of Haifa in a future Palestinian state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #520
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    ..What do you mean "exactly"?
    You said that "Israel is not an ethno state." (sic)
    Israel is the ethno state of the Jewish people.I support the idea of Israel as a nation state of the Jewish people, condition sine qua non for its survival. Refusing to enshrine civil equality in the law that enshrines the Jewish character of the state is an inevitably side effect of this choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    They are not second class citizens, they are full fledged citizens
    No, because they are not Jews, Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel is 'not a state of all its citizens .

    “Israel is not a state of all its citizens. According to the basic nationality law we passed, Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people – and only it.
    It's crystal clear.
    Last edited by Ludicus; August 06, 2021 at 12:16 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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