View Poll Results: Which party would you vote for?

Voters
25. You may not vote on this poll
  • Likud (Conservative)

    3 12.00%
  • Jewish Home (Right-Wing)

    0 0%
  • Yesh Atid (Centrism)

    0 0%
  • Labour (Center-Left)

    1 4.00%
  • New Right (right-wing)

    1 4.00%
  • Joint Union (Israeli Arab)

    3 12.00%
  • Kulanu (Center)

    0 0%
  • Shas (Sephardic-Mizrahi Orthodoxy)

    1 4.00%
  • United Torah Judaism (Ashkenazi Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Yachad (Ultra-Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Hatnuah (Liberalism)

    0 0%
  • Ta'al (Arab Nationalism)

    3 12.00%
  • Israel Resilience Party (Center-Right)

    0 0%
  • Metetz (Green-Left)

    8 32.00%
  • Yisrael Beiteinu (Zionism)

    0 0%
  • Gesher (Right-Wing)

    1 4.00%
  • Zehut (Libertarianism)

    3 12.00%
  • Other (Please, specify)

    1 4.00%
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Thread: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

  1. #181

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    If it were then he'd be on trial, not her.
    Then how did she managed to spend funds she had no access to without her husband's knowledge?
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #182

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Then how did she managed to spend funds she had no access to without her husband's knowledge?
    Obviously he knew she was eating too much, maybe just not that it was $50,000 too much.

    The media was never exactly clear on the mechanics, but from what I gather, she can just submit invoices to be reimbursed for expenses at the prime ministers residence, or something to that effect. Someone else decides what is legitimate to cover. The state was paying the invoices for catering, and apparently this wasn't a problem until whoever was in charge realized they were also paying for an in-house chef to be on staff. What she plead guilty to was knowingly taking advantage of someone else's misuse of state funds.

    The main reason the incident won't effect Netanyahu, I think, is that it just feeds confirmation bias. Those that already think he's corrupt will see this as more proof, but those who support him will just see it as proof that that his opponents are willing to come up with any "petty" reason to discredit him because they can't beat him in elections.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  3. #183
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Netanyahu is also being investigated for other case of corruption

  4. #184
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Yes, investigated, however innocent until proven guilty is still the practice.

  5. #185
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Several significant changes have taken place since the last update on this thread:
    The Labour party's leader resigned after the catastrophically low result in the last election, and in the party elections held Amir Peretz, former Minister of defence and minister of Enviormental protection, won and now leads the party.
    The Gesher party, which failed to pass the voter threshold in the previous election, has merged with the Labour party, much to the dismay of it's voters who had considered it to be a right-wing party. Apparently the resulting party will get a new name, but one has yet to be chosen.
    Former prime minister Ehud Barak, who was leader of the Labour party at the time, has returned from his self imposed exile to the USA and rejoined Israeli politics, creating a new party called "Democratic Israel". The party is likely a left-wing one, seeing as Barak was head of Labour, however under his leadership the party had been in a coalition under Netanyahu in the past.
    While not yet fully official, the leaders of both the Zehut party and the New Right party have almost finalised a merger between their parties. Both parties fell short of the voter threshold during the last election, however it wasn't by much. It is as of yet unclear if Ayelet Shaked, 2nd place in the new right party and until very recently active minister of Justice will remain in this new party or try to join a different one.
    Speaking of Shaked, there have been reports that Netanyahu is trying to work on a merger of all the smaller right wing parties into one (those being the Union of Right Wing Parties, itself already a merger of 3 parties, Yahad, the New Right and Zehut) under the leadership of Shaked. This seems to be facing opposition largely from Rabbi Rafi Peretz, current leader of the URWP.
    The Arab parties seem to have re-united into one again. Time will tell how long that lasts this time.

  6. #186
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Several significant changes have taken place since the last update on this thread:
    The Labour party's leader resigned after the catastrophically low result in the last election, and in the party elections held Amir Peretz, former Minister of defence and minister of Enviormental protection, won and now leads the party.
    The Gesher party, which failed to pass the voter threshold in the previous election, has merged with the Labour party, much to the dismay of it's voters who had considered it to be a right-wing party. Apparently the resulting party will get a new name, but one has yet to be chosen.
    Former prime minister Ehud Barak, who was leader of the Labour party at the time, has returned from his self imposed exile to the USA and rejoined Israeli politics, creating a new party called "Democratic Israel". The party is likely a left-wing one, seeing as Barak was head of Labour, however under his leadership the party had been in a coalition under Netanyahu in the past.
    While not yet fully official, the leaders of both the Zehut party and the New Right party have almost finalised a merger between their parties. Both parties fell short of the voter threshold during the last election, however it wasn't by much. It is as of yet unclear if Ayelet Shaked, 2nd place in the new right party and until very recently active minister of Justice will remain in this new party or try to join a different one.
    Speaking of Shaked, there have been reports that Netanyahu is trying to work on a merger of all the smaller right wing parties into one (those being the Union of Right Wing Parties, itself already a merger of 3 parties, Yahad, the New Right and Zehut) under the leadership of Shaked. This seems to be facing opposition largely from Rabbi Rafi Peretz, current leader of the URWP.
    The Arab parties seem to have re-united into one again. Time will tell how long that lasts this time.
    American party politics are so comparatively dull - always two parties...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #187
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    American party politics are so comparatively dull - always two parties...
    Comparatively dull, yes. It seems to me that the American Republic (the Americans) is afraid of political chaos without two sempiternal "official" parties.
    --
    For Netanyahu, all Israeli Arab politicians (Palestinians) are an existential threat. Let's keep in mind his infamous statement :"Israel is not a state of all its citizens" (last March, in response to an Instagram post by actress Rotem Sela). Even with all those parties, Israel is a democratic regime for the Jews,exclusively, not for all its citizens. A state for all its citizens is a basic concept of a truly democratic regime.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  8. #188
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    American party politics are so comparatively dull - always two parties...
    A natural result of the first past the post system (when there are no local parties). The benefit is that the prime minister/president doesn't have to give out unproportional control of the government to small parties to be able to pass the 50% threshold, although I still prefer our system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    For Netanyahu, all Israeli Arab politicians (Palestinians) are an existential threat.
    Not really. The fact that the Arab parties won't join any coalition, left or right, means that they aren't something he really even has to take into consideration.
    Also, you're painting with a very broad brush, there are Arab-Israeli politicians within the Likud, such as member of Knesset Patin Mula, and formerly Ayoob Kara, who in Netanyahu's previous coalition was minister of communications.

    Let's keep in mind his infamous statement :"Israel is not a state of all its citizens" (last March, in response to an Instagram post by actress Rotem Sela).
    Which, as you've been told countless times, does not mean what you imply that it means.
    Even with all those parties, Israel is a democratic regime for the Jews,exclusively, not for all its citizens. A state for all its citizens is a basic concept of a truly democratic regime.
    How so? All citizens can vote and participate in the democratic regime, Jews or not. There are Arabs in all major "Jewish" parties except for the sectarian ones (for obvious reasons).

  9. #189
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    A natural result of the first past the post system (when there are no local parties). The benefit is that the prime minister/president doesn't have to give out unproportional control of the government to small parties to be able to pass the 50% threshold, although I still prefer our system.
    Although the down side is since both coalitions are so broad and deal making happens behind the party walls I think a lot of people get disenchanted and it leads to the low voter turn out in the US.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #190
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Not really.
    Fair enough: just let me rephrase that "Netanyahu wants to portray all Israeli Arab politicians as an existential threat".
    Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm merely asking:- although United Arab List/Balad denies Israel's legitimacy, the Hadash-Taal seeks to participate in the Israeli system in some fashion, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    How so?
    Ask Netanyahu, he tells us that "Israel is not a state of all its citizens" (sic)
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #191
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Fair enough: just let me rephrase that "Netanyahu wants to portray all Israeli Arab politicians as an existential threat".
    You've also missed my note about Israeli-Arab politicians who are members of Netanyahu's own party. Now if you were to say Israeli-Arab parties instead of politicians, I would agree with you.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm merely asking:- although United Arab List/Balad denies Israel's legitimacy, the Hadash-Taal seeks to participate in the Israeli system in some fashion, yes or no?
    That division is now moot since the parties have merged once more. Hadash does indeed, but is a communist party, so no one would enter coalition with them either way. Ta'al is an Arab-nationalist party.


    Ask Netanyahu, he tells us that "Israel is not a state of all its citizens" (sic)
    Sigh. "state of all its citizens" is a specific term in Israel. Take the part in quotations, turn it into Hebrew through google translator, google it, go to the wikipedia article, translate the relevant part into English, here's the result for you:
    Quote Originally Posted by translated wikipedia article
    A state of all its citizens is a term for a state that is not a nation-state, whose political identity is cut off from ethnic symbols, and whose immigration and citizenship laws do not prefer citizens whose origin (by examining their ethnic affiliation) has a national connection to that state. The United States and Canada, for example, are countries with all their citizens, since their immigration policy does not give preference to a certain nationality. Countries such as Britain are nation-states, since descendants of citizens of those countries are entitled to priority immigration.

    This means that Portugal is, by this definition used in Israel, also not a state of all its citizens. Yet you wouldn't say "
    Portugal is a democratic regime for the Portuguese, exclusively, not for all its citizens. A state for all its citizens is a basic concept of a truly democratic regime.", would you?
    Last edited by nhytgbvfeco2; July 23, 2019 at 03:03 PM.

  12. #192
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    @nhytgbvfeco2

    So you going to get a government this time with all the party shuffling? Any impact from what looks a tit for tat drift to war or least some military action between the US and Iran?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #193
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    @nhytgbvfeco2

    So you going to get a government this time with all the party shuffling? Any impact from what looks a tit for tat drift to war or least some military action between the US and Iran?
    As for the first part, hard to say. We still don't have the full picture of exactly what parties are running as there are still talks of mergers on both sides, and the result really depends on that. Last election neither Zehut nor New Right passed the threshold, missing it by just a little. Had they merged they would have passed and Netanyahu would have had a coalition. This time there is talk of uniting all the right wing parties (other than Likud and Kulanu, the latter of which already merged into the former), which would make it easy for Netanyahu to form a coalition. No significant parties failed to pass the threshold on the left side of the isle during the last election (though I suppose it is debatable which side Gesher was on), so I don't see them making any significant gains this election. Labour will either collapse further and lose seats to Ehud Barak's new party, or regain some of the ground they lost to blue and white, who have so far not done a particularly good job relaying their message across. Whereas last election cycle they kept absorbing more and more parties, giving them momentum as a rising new force for "hope", this time around you hear very little from them, mostly because them being a merger of parties results in them not really having much of a clear and concise message beyond replacing Netanyahu.

    As for the 2nd part, not too much impact. Netanyahu is using it as proof of his good ties to the USA, and Trump in particular, while the rest are silent about it as it's seen as a victory of Netanyahu's foreign policy. Not so much the recent escalations, but the sanctions and the withdrawal from the deal.

  14. #194
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Once more drama has occurred, as Meretz and the new Democratic Israel announced a merger into what is called "the Democratic Camp", which is also joined by Stav Shapir, who was until yesterday the number 2 in Labour, as Labour's death spiral continues. In a move that honestly surprised me, former prime minister Ehud Barack was given the 10th spot in the new party (a number of seats that they are not at all guaranteed to get), while Shapir was given the 2nd, and the head of Meretz the first. More Labour MK's are considering joining this merger and leaving behind the dying party.

  15. #195
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Yet more changes as election grows closer and the final date for submitting party lists looms on the horizon:
    At long last all Arab parties have agreed to once more merge into the "United List" under the leadership of Hadash's Ayman Oodah.
    Meanwhile on the right an interesting week came to a close. At first the radical Otzma Le'Israel was somewhat "pushed out" of the union of right wing parties, as the latter was engaged in talks with the New Right, where the parties former number 2, Ayelet Shaked returned and assumed the position of party leader as Naftali Bennett stepped down and is now in the 2nd place. Shaked's status was ambiguous after the last election and there were rumours of her looking to join the Likud, however Netanyahu had refused to reserve a spot for her in the party, and she finally made her return.
    In the negotiations between the 2 parties the new right, which had failed to pass the voter threshold during the last election, now demanded that Shaked be placed at the head of the potential United party, a demand which Rafi Peretz, leader of the United right wing parties, refused at first. Reports on the media came out that he was also being pressured by both his wife, and allegedly Netanyahu's wife, not to accept Shaked's demand, however after a meeting this Sunday he did just that.
    And thus Shaked, whom Netanyahu refused to reserve a spot for and is rumoured to be on bad terms with his wife (they are even on video sitting in the same synagogue a few seats apart and never even looking at each other's direction), leads the "United Right", a party Netanyahu depends on for the purpose of forming a coalition.
    This new part declared its intent to attempt to absorb into itself both Otzma Le'Israel and Zehut, however Zehut's leader, Moshe Feiglin, announced that this is unlikely to happen, and that while he had almost finalised an agreement with Bennet to form a liberal party, this party instead is full of people who's ideology stands in opposition to his own. He also stated that "for complaints about wasting votes - talk to Shaked."

  16. #196

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Shaked is evidently a tough negotiator. I can't be the only person to find it odd that a coalition of Religious Zionist parties is now led by a secular woman from Tel Aviv.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  17. #197
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Shaked is evidently a tough negotiator. I can't be the only person to find it odd that a coalition of Religious Zionist parties is now led by a secular woman from Tel Aviv.
    I think it's more to do with her greater popularity, and making the party look less like a sectarian party. They probably looked at internal polling and came to the conclusion that they'd get more seats with Shaked at the helm.

  18. #198

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    You are genuinely confused. Portugal is the oldest nation state in Europe having the same defined borders since since 1249, at the end of the reconquest. And an independent kingdom since 1143.
    TWC Thread Historical development of statehood and the Portuguese example ...
    Post #3 quoting,
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In fact, nation states first emerged in the 16th and 17th centuries in the countries on the western edge of Europe. But the modern did not happen everywhere at once. National identity was established earlier in Portugal than Spain, and during the 12/13th centuries Portugal become the first nation-state in Europe. The Portuguese identity took shape during the middle ages, based on a political unity, on a geographic unity, on a common language, and on a sense of social and institutional difference from Castile, the dominant power in the Iberian Peninsula.
    ------
    States and Nationalism in Europe, Charles Tilly, page 137,
    Not that homogeneous nation-states suddenly become dominant in Europe. On the contrary: Even during the last two nationalistic centuries, only a tiny proportion of the world's distinctive religious, linguistic, and cultural groupings have formed their own states, while precious few of the world's existing states have approximated the homogeneity and commitment conjured by the label "nation-state". Within Europe itself, twentieth-century Portugal...despite much mythmaking to the contrary, such large states as France, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain all hosted visibly, vigorously heterogeneous peoples

    And guess what? Portugal is a state for all its citizens, according to the articles 4 (citizenship), article 12 ( principle of universality) and article 13, principle of equality of the Constitution
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1. All citizens possess the same social dignity and are equal before the law.
    2. No one may be privileged, favoured, prejudiced, deprived of any right or exempted from any duty for reasons of ancestry, sex, race, language, territory of origin, religion, political or ideological beliefs, education, economic situation, social circumstances or sexual orientation.

    The borders of England have been pretty much the same since the time of the Norman conquest, so England would seem older than Portugal. Scotland as well, its borders are pretty much the same since then as well. The idea that a nation must be composed of the same.ethnicity, or that all members of the same ethnicity should come together and form a single nation, is a relatively modern idea.

    Modern nations have fixed geographical borders, although the exact limit of these borders may change with time as a result of wars and other means. While a common ethnicity and language can make the country more stable, it is notna requirement. Switzerland, India, etc., Are all examples of linguistically diverse countries.

  19. #199
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    The borders of England have been pretty much the same since the time of the Norman conquest, so England would seem older than Portugal.
    The Kingdom of England was formed when Æthelstan, the King of the Anglo-Saxons, decided to unify various of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms into one sovereign state. Together with Denmark and Norway, the kingdom became a part of the North Sea Empire of Cnut the Great. As I said before,the point here is the nation-state,the coincidence between nation and state. Henry VII wins the war of Roses and starts building the English nation-state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    The idea that a nation must be composed of the same.ethnicity, or that all members of the same ethnicity should come together and form a single nation, is a relatively modern idea.
    For many authors (Gellner, Hobsbawm, etc), the emergence of nationhood and of the first nation-states does not go further back than the 19th century. And yet,the idea that prior to the 1500s, in Europe, the nation-state did not exist, is not accurate.
    ---
    Edit,
    On the other side- thinking about it - let's hear Harari. He hits the nail on the head,



    ...the most important factors in modern politics are nations and states...But what are nation and states? they are not an objective reality. A mountain is an objective reality...but a nation or a state like Israel, or Iran, or France or Germany this is just a story that we've invented, and became extremely attached to.
    Last edited by Ludicus; August 21, 2019 at 02:24 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  20. #200
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    In a surprising turn of events Zehut has announced that it isn't going to take part in the coming election, which is now 2 weeks away. The party leader, Moshe Feiglin, signed a deal with Benjamin Netanyahu in which it was agreed that, in return for not running, Netanyahu would make several concessions for Feiglin, including making him a minister in his government if he wins the election, legalisation of medical Marijuana as well as allowing every doctor to give prescription to it, aswell as several moves towards a freer market, for example: any product that has been approved in a majority of developed countries can be imported into Israel and sold without needing a special permit, something that will make the processes cheaper, quicker and easier, tax exemptions for new small businesses for their first 2 years as long as they make below a certain amount of money, the creation of a committee that will include Feiglin and will strive to lower many regulations, setting a goal to enter the top 5 in the list of countries by ease of doing business and more, as well as things unrelated to the economy such as making quicker and simpler the process of allowing Jews to go on to the temple mount.
    Feiglin put the deal up to a vote available to party members and donors, and it was accepted with over 70% of the vote.

    If these promises are kept it will be an impressive achievement for a party that ran once and failed to pass the voter threshold, and won't be running this time.
    Meanwhile, Netanyahu is also trying to convince Itamar ben Gvir, of "Otzma leIsrael"(power to Israel), a far-right party which in the last election was part of the now defunct union of right wing parties, to also withdraw from this election. This will seemingly be more complicated for Netanyahu, as he refuses to give Ben Gvir the position of minister, and according to reports has so far offered to lower the required voter threshold to get into parliament ahead of the next election in return for Otzma's withdrawl, something that is highly unlikely to be enough.

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