View Poll Results: Which party would you vote for?

Voters
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  • Likud (Conservative)

    2 13.33%
  • Jewish Home (Right-Wing)

    0 0%
  • Yesh Atid (Centrism)

    0 0%
  • Labour (Center-Left)

    0 0%
  • New Right (right-wing)

    1 6.67%
  • Joint Union (Israeli Arab)

    1 6.67%
  • Kulanu (Center)

    0 0%
  • Shas (Sephardic-Mizrahi Orthodoxy)

    1 6.67%
  • United Torah Judaism (Ashkenazi Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Yachad (Ultra-Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Hatnuah (Liberalism)

    0 0%
  • Ta'al (Arab Nationalism)

    2 13.33%
  • Israel Resilience Party (Center-Right)

    0 0%
  • Metetz (Green-Left)

    5 33.33%
  • Yisrael Beiteinu (Zionism)

    0 0%
  • Gesher (Right-Wing)

    0 0%
  • Zehut (Libertarianism)

    3 20.00%
  • Other (Please, specify)

    0 0%
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Thread: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

  1. #221

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    Intersesting stuff, thanks to sumskilz and feco2!

    As a side question, why is living in Israel so expensive?
    In line with what nhytgbvfeco2 said. Seems to be mostly taxes, shortages, and protectionism. For example, when you buy car, its price has already been inflated by almost 50% due to various commercial import charges. Yet you still have to pay 50% vehicle tax on that inflated price, and then you have to pay 17% VAT on the inflated price plus 50%. That’s right, you have to pay taxes on the taxes you just paid, because your car is now artificially worth more (except only in Israel, not compared to the world). Commercial importers of all types don’t just have to pay taxes on the value of what they import plus tariffs, etc., they also have to pay tax on the insurance they paid on the shipping and the cost of transport. Manufacturers actually in Israel can then raise their own prices up to match everything imported and still be competitive.

    For housing, there are shortages nearby where most people have a better chance at making a higher wage, which also happen to be the safest places to live, so the housing prices there get inflated to the point that the higher potential local wage (if you can get it) isn’t really getting you much more than location.


    Israel needs the ridiculously high taxes to keep the government running, but the ridiculously high taxes stifle economic growth (that could be taxed in the future). Because of all the import BS, Israeli companies mostly manufacture in other countries, because with all the taxes on importing components and materials and then taxes on exports, they couldn’t be competitive otherwise, so they create way more jobs outside the country than inside. Israel is a major arms exporter for example, but I remember reading something like 70% of what Rafael manufactures is actually in the US in collaboration with Raytheon. Which sounds to me more like it’s being exported from the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #222
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    @sumskilz and feco2: Thank you both, those insights make the picture more nuanced... no longer the land where milk and honey flows, I´m afraid :-(

    After reading sumskilz Post, the big IT Sector in Israel makes sense... and btw, Taxes on Taxes are also possible in Germany.

  3. #223

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    and btw, Taxes on Taxes are also possible in Germany.
    As an American, I just find it inconceivable... Although, our country was kind of founded on not paying taxes... literally.

    Ayelet Shaked just called me from a private number, all shouting and in a panic. I'm pretty sure it was a recording though, I couldn't get her to calm down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  4. #224
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    you don't have any sympathy for whatever bad happens to kids because their parents chose to cross a border illegally
    When you draw an analogy between two things, you compare them for the purpose of explanation. Analogies should make sense to us. What you are saying doesn't make any sense. I don't feel any sympathy for Trump's horrific behaviour 'Trump is literally deporting kids with cancer': New immigration rule and I don't feel sympathy for the illegal, systematic, expansive colonization of the Palestine.Today, between 600,000/750,000 Israelis live in these illegal settlements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    territorial maximalism from the Israeli right is really what allowed settlements to flourish
    That's because the US has given the state of Israel a free pass to do whatever it likes, regardless of systematic violation of international law or concern for human rights, including "legislate anywhere in the world, entitled to violate the sovereignty of foreign countries, and allowed to ignore the directives of international law in any field it desires". (previous post)
    Netanyahu: 'We are a Rising Superpower' | The Jewish Press
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  5. #225
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Remember that no one is actually opposed to Israeli settlers; they're against Jewish settlers. Arab Israeli settlers are perfectly fine.

    A Jew whose family has lived in Israel for 2000 years has no right to move to East Jerusalem, but an Arab descendant of Sudanese immigrants from the early 1900s has a human right to live in Ashdod, Jerusalem, Bethlehem or anywhere he wants, really.
    Last edited by Prodromos; September 17, 2019 at 08:11 PM.

  6. #226

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Remember that no one is actually opposed to Israeli settlers; they're against Jewish settlers. Arab Israeli settlers are perfectly fine.

    A Jew whose family has lived in Israel for 2000 years has no right to move to East Jerusalem, but an Arab descendant of Sudanese immigrants from the early 1900s has a human right to live in Ashdod, Jerusalem, Bethlehem or anywhere he wants, really.
    I've never seen anybody make that distinction, yet I don't find myself particularly caring over it. I'm assuming, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are attempting to draw attention to a double standard of racism and state sovereignty. Yet the larger issue, is that Jewish settlements in the West Bank infringe on Palestinian rights and self-government. Israel does not allow a full Palestinian state to exist, yet they do not treat Palestinians as civic equals. At the same time, a solution may be to seek separated societies, yet Israel does not permit that situation to occur either by allowing settlements to expand.

    In that context, what possible relevance does opposition to strictly Jewish settlers, rather than Arab settlers, have to the situation?

  7. #227

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    When you draw an analogy between two things, you compare them for the purpose of explanation. Analogies should make sense to us. What you are saying doesn't make any sense.
    Considering the rep comments I received on that one observation, I'm pretty sure the hypocrisy is clear enough. The analogy isn't about your stance on any government's policy. Those people went to live in the West Bank of their own volition. They bought that apartment building from a Palestinian property developer named Faez Rajabi who had purchased the vacant property from its previous Palestinian owner. The problem is selling property to Jews is illegal under Palestinian law, in fact it is a capital offense. When the situation started to get public attention, Rajabi no doubt fearing for his life, claimed that he had never sold the building and that the settlers had just occupied it by force, this was later proven to be false. It was also not an atypical situation.

    Based on the context of your comment, I'm not sure if you meant you have no sympathy for their families being violently attacked by Palestinians or whether your lack of sympathy for their families was limited to not caring about the trauma and injuries they experienced in being forcibly evicted by the Israeli government. Assuming it's only the latter, I doubt you would have a lack of sympathy if a video similar to the one I posted surfaced of US immigration enforcement and the US national guard forcibly evicting entire families of illegal immigrants from their homes in a similar manner.

    The Green Line is not an international border, but if we pretend it is, then those people's only crime is crossing a border illegally. Their children committed no crime. Of course Israelis know that the Green Line is not an international border, so they know that those people's only crime is being Jews where Jews are not wanted. So naturally, forcibly evicting them causes sympathy for them even among Israelis who have no interest in the West Bank. One can recognize that, while still thinking Jewish settlement in the West Bank is a bad idea for the prospects of a two state solution, and while still opposing any Israeli government policies facilitating settlement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    I've never seen anybody make that distinction
    They don't really do so explicitly, it's implicit in their conception of reality and the historical narrative they subscribe to.

    As for the election, it looks like polls were right. Neither the center-left nor the right wing coalition have enough control to form a government without Liberman. As I said before, Liberman wants a unity government without the religious parties.

    Exit polls:



    The magic number is 61. The vote counts so far are in the same neighborhood.

    EDIT:
    Liberman laid out his demands — a secular wishlist including an ultra-Orthodox military draft, public transportation and commerce on Shabbat, Haredi secular education and other measures — and said he did not plan on speaking to any other party leaders until they meet his preconditions.
    Reiterating call for unity, kingmaker Liberman sets out list of secular demands
    Last edited by sumskilz; September 18, 2019 at 02:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  8. #228
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post

    Exit polls:



    The magic number is 61. The vote counts so far are in the same neighborhood.

    EDIT:
    Reiterating call for unity, kingmaker Liberman sets out list of secular demands
    Somewhat misleading. The United list's seats here are added under the category of "center-left", however they ought to be separate, as they wouldn't join a center-left coalition (or any coalition for that matter).

    With 91% of votes counted, the current results, in number of seats, are as follows:
    32 - Blue And White (centre-left)
    31 - Likud (centre-right)
    13 - Joint list (Arab, ranging from Islamist to Communist)
    9 - Shas (ultra-Orthodox Sephardi)
    9 - Israel Beitenu (Lieberman)
    8 - United Torah Judaism (ultra-orthodox Ashkenazi)
    7 - Right (right, shockingly)
    6 - Labour-Gesher (left)
    5 - Democratic camp (left/far-left)
    0 - Otzma Yehudit (far-right)

    This leaves us with 55 seats that support only Netanyahu (Supposedly), 43 that support only Gantz (Supposedly), 9 with Lieberman and 13 with the United list (might aswell think that there are only 107 seats, because those 13 aren't joining any coalition).
    All in all, Netanyahu definitely lost power this election, his "coalition" going from 60 seats to 55. Still, he is in a better position to form a government than Gantz. Any 1 party joining Netanyahu (with the exception of the democratic camp, but that wouldn't happen anyway) would be enough to form a coalition, meanwhile Gantz is missing 18 seats, which would require a minimum of 2 parties joining him. His position is further complicated by both the UTJ and Shas declaring that they won't sit in a coalition with the number 2 in his party, Yair Lapid, with whom he has a rotation agreement (Gantz would be PM for the first 2 years, Lapid the next 2). This means that it's simply impossible for Gantz to gain the necessary number of seats, unless Likud somehow splinters. A party that is more likely to splinter, however, is Blue and white, a combination of 3 parties with members whose ideology ranges from right wing to left wing, including former Likud Member Moshe Ya'alon.
    Last edited by nhytgbvfeco2; September 18, 2019 at 10:34 AM.


  9. #229
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Those people went to live in the West Bank of their own volition. They bought that apartment building from a Palestinian property developer named Faez Rajabi who had purchased the vacant property from its previous Palestinian owner...
    ...certainly an an exceptional/particular case.I don't have sympathy for the illegal process of colonization of Palestine, period.What really matters,
    Six-Month Report on Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank including East Jerusalem

    There are currently approximately 215,000 Israelis living in East Jerusalem while the settler population in Area C in the occupied West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem, is some 399,300. This brings the settler population to approximately 600,000 Israeli settlers in 143 locations in the West Bank (132) including East Jerusalem (11)[2]. According to the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics 4.6% of the total Israeli population resides today in the Occupied West Bank excluding East Jerusalem.Through recent settlement activity, Israel continues to reinforce existing settlements and the separation of East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank and is exacerbating the territorial fragmentation of the West Bank.
    Settlements are illegal under international law as reaffirmed by UN Security Council Resolution 2334 (2016), The developments on the ground make the prospect of a two-state solution increasingly unattainable.
    -----
    A recent survey finds Arabs more open than Jews to political cooperation. Time has come for a Joint List+Gantz to re-enter negotiations with the P.A., endorse a two- state solution, and amend the racist nation law.




    Joint List to present list of demands to Gantz in ... - The Times of Israel


    Blue and White has established a back channel to communicate with the Joint List...
    These include freezing home demolitions in unrecognized Arab villages, forming a team to examine the issue of those villages, passing a government decision on battling violence within the Arab sector, canceling the controversial nation-state law — which enshrines Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people — and initiating a peace process with the Palestinian Authority.
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 22, 2019 at 05:58 PM.
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  10. #230
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Time has come for a Joint List+Gantz to re-enter negotiations with the P.A., endorse a two- state solution, and amend the racist nation law.
    Can't and won't happen. Gantz's own party would fall apart if he were to do that. The joint list is comprised of parties that are communist, Arab-nationalist and Islamist. The quickest way for Netanyahu to form a coalition would be for Gantz to say that he would form one with the Joint list.
    There's nothing racist about the nation state law. We've been over this many times now, and you still fail to respond to me every time I explain why it isn't.

    These demands are for show. The percentage of Arabs voting has been declining over the years because voting for the Arab parties is pointless because they won't ever join a coalition, and thus will never pass any laws or do anything useful to help the Arab population. So in a trick to attract voters and give them hope, they published these demands, that they know that neither the Likud nor Blue and White will meet. About as genuine as Netanyahu's calls for a unity government.

    Just a slight update on the results I posted earlier, with soldier votes counted Blue and white gained an extra seat while Lieberman lost one.


  11. #231
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Can't and won't happen. Gantz's own party would fall apart if he were to do that...
    I see...well, the last time Arab parties backed a candidate was in 1992. Rabin was assassinated on 1995.

    There's nothing racist about the nation state law. We've been over this many times now, and you still fail to respond to me every time I explain why it isn't.
    It's not difficult to understand that the racist law codifies discrimination against Palestinians through the exclusive recognition of Jewish rights to self-determination in the land of Israel,and entrenches an apartheid system in Israel through the selective status awarded to Hebrew and the removal of Arabic as an official language.
    Netanyahu is right: Israel is a nation with no interest in equality |Guardian.

    ----
    ----


    Amal Assad, one of the leading Druze activists who served as officer in the Israeli Defense Forces, said that Gantz's addressing the rally was a good sign and a gives him hope that the legislation will indeed be amended.

    In first public statement, Benny Gantz vows to 'fix' nation-state law
    Netanyahu's Likud party slammed Gantz's "attack of the nation-state law" Monday and added that "everyone knows the obvious: Gantz is left-wing
    Oh dear.




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  12. #232

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    The screen in the lower left of that picture is right next to where Rabin was shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  13. #233
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I see...well, the last time Arab parties backed a candidate was in 1992. Rabin was assassinated on 1995.
    And yet Balad, part of the joint list, and it's 3 members did not back him, thus Gantz only got 10 seats of their 13, and ended up with 1 seat fewer in support of him than Netanyahu, meaning Netanyahu will most likely get the job of creating a coalition first.

    It's not difficult to understand that the racist law codifies discrimination against Palestinians through the exclusive recognition of Jewish rights to self-determination in the land of Israel,and entrenches an apartheid system in Israel through the selective status awarded to Hebrew and the removal of Arabic as an official language.
    How is that Apartheid? Is France an apartheid state because it doesn't have any official languages other than French, despite having many other peoples living in it, such as the Bretons? The USA doesn't have an official language at all, is it apartheid targeting everyone?
    Yes, it says that Israel is the nation state of the Jews. That was the very purpose for the creation of the state in the first place. It's not the world's only nation state, doesn't make it racist.
    Ugh. I've already explained the meaning of "state of all it's citizens" to you. Portugal is also not a state of all its citizens by the Israeli definition, yet you wouldn't say that Portugal has no interest in equality.
    The arguments the article brings are laughable. The admission committees target Jews as much as Arabs. Palestinian history isn't taught in state schools because.. why should it be? Can you study Ugandan history in a state school in France? You'd lose state funding for making your play paint the state as an evil oppressor and that's bad because..? Why should tax payer money be given by the state to someone who uses it to promote hatred of the state? hello?


  14. #234

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    And yet Balad, part of the joint list, and it's 3 members did not back him, thus Gantz only got 10 seats of their 13, and ended up with 1 seat fewer in support of him than Netanyahu, meaning Netanyahu will most likely get the job of creating a coalition first.
    I read that's not true and that Balad has to follow JL's prerogatives, unless it's dissolved first.


  15. #235
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    I read that's not true and that Balad has to follow JL's prerogatives, unless it's dissolved first.
    What is that based on? First time I hear of this, and I don't think that it's true


  16. #236
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Now, what is going to happen next?...new elections?
    I don't have unrealistic expectations. For Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, Netanyahu and Gantz are two sides of the same coin, Pepsi v Coke...
    It seems that Gantz recently boasted of sending parts of Gaza to the Stone Age.
    Gantz's Stone Age - Haaretz Cartoon - Israel News | Haaretz.com
    Gantz’s first public declaration, that he would work to fix the nation-state law, was important and instilled hope in his potential voters... How can a decent person who seeks to become prime minister boast that the army under his leadership sent back to the Stone Age parts of Gaza, a place where 2 million people live in terrible conditions, a place known as “the world’s largest prison,” where there are severe shortages of electricity, water, infrastructure, medical services and food. With all due respect to the war on terror, there is no justification for a video that celebrates a body count as if this were just some computer game.
    The Observer view on the threat posed to Israel by ... - The Guardian
    Netanyahu’s critics say he has surpassed himself this time, running the “nastiest, most racist campaign that will go down is Israel's history (1)”, according to Yossi Verter, a Haaretz columnist
    (1)... I quote the Haaretz,
    When historians come to study this period, they will find it difficult to explain to their students what in the blazes happened to this intelligent nation – to this “special race,” in the words of Likud MK Makhlouf “Miki” Zohar.
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  17. #237
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post

    (1)... I quote the Haaretz,
    You really shouldn't. It's a terrible source (not to mention pay to read beyond 1 or 2 articles a month).


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