View Poll Results: Which party would you vote for?

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  • Likud (Conservative)

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Thread: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

  1. #201
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    In a surprising turn of events Zehut has announced that it isn't going to take part in the coming election, which is now 2 weeks away. The party leader, Moshe Feiglin, signed a deal with Benjamin Netanyahu in which it was agreed that, in return for not running, Netanyahu would make several concessions for Feiglin, including making him a minister in his government if he wins the election, legalisation of medical Marijuana as well as allowing every doctor to give prescription to it, aswell as several moves towards a freer market, for example: any product that has been approved in a majority of developed countries can be imported into Israel and sold without needing a special permit, something that will make the processes cheaper, quicker and easier, tax exemptions for new small businesses for their first 2 years as long as they make below a certain amount of money, the creation of a committee that will include Feiglin and will strive to lower many regulations, setting a goal to enter the top 5 in the list of countries by ease of doing business and more, as well as things unrelated to the economy such as making quicker and simpler the process of allowing Jews to go on to the temple mount.
    Feiglin put the deal up to a vote available to party members and donors, and it was accepted with over 70% of the vote.

    If these promises are kept it will be an impressive achievement for a party that ran once and failed to pass the voter threshold, and won't be running this time.
    That's good to hear. But to be honest I'm starting to doubt if Netanyahu is the best man to keep Israel safe. If this analysis is correct, it's possible he's been outmaneuvered in Syria and as a result Israel's security could be threatened now more than ever.

    How Netanyahu saved Assad, helped Russia and gave Iran the run of Syria

  2. #202
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    t I'm starting to doubt if Netanyahu is the best man to keep Israel safe
    Don't worry, Israel ranked 8th most powerful country in the world - and has the nuclear bomb. With that being said, Israel Fears Abrupt Trump Reversal on Iran After Bolton Fired ... and Iran gives cautious welcome to sacking of John Bolton | Financial Times
    As a side note, Netanyahu wants to bury the two states solution, annexing a massive part of the West Bank. He said, I quote- "We haven't had this kind of opportunity since the [1967] six-day war, and may not have it again for another 50 years"
    Probably not. With the American elections are around the corner, he doesn't know what to expect. The International community has already reacted, EU reacts to Netanyahu's plans to annex Jordan Valley, ; UN warns Israel
    Some political analysts say that Trump will greenlight West Bank annexation to force Israeli pols to keep Netanyahu as PM, but who knows...Trump is the King of Israel, not Netanyahu. I quote Trump,

    Thank you to Wayne Allyn Root for the very nice words. “President Trump is the greatest President for Jews and for Israel in the history of the world, not just America, he is the best President for Israel in the history of the world...and the Jewish people in Israel love him....
    Netanyahu is right to be worried. There is a list of stories within the One Thousand and One Nights stories (Arabian Nights), where Caliphs and Vizirs don't mix well.
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 11, 2019 at 03:31 PM.
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  3. #203
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    That's good to hear. But to be honest I'm starting to doubt if Netanyahu is the best man to keep Israel safe. If this analysis is correct, it's possible he's been outmaneuvered in Syria and as a result Israel's security could be threatened now more than ever.

    How Netanyahu saved Assad, helped Russia and gave Iran the run of Syria
    Eh, from Israel's perspective the rebels winning wasn't the preferred outcome, instead that was a prolonged war that would leave Syria, regardless of who wins, in no state to threaten Israel. The Rebels (or at least the overwhelming majority) also hate Israel. The one side in Syria friendly to Israel is the Kurds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Don't worry, Israel ranked 8th most powerful country in the world - and has the nuclear bomb. With that being said, Israel Fears Abrupt Trump Reversal on Iran After Bolton Fired ... and Iran gives cautious welcome to sacking of John Bolton | Financial Times
    As a side note, Netanyahu wants to bury the two states solution, annexing a massive part of the West Bank. He said, I quote- "We haven't had this kind of opportunity since the [1967] six-day war, and may not have it again for another 50 years"
    Probably not. With the American elections are around the corner, he doesn't know what to expect. The International community has already reacted, EU reacts to Netanyahu's plans to annex Jordan Valley, ; UN warns Israel
    As I've said before in this thread, take Netanyahu with a grain (a pile really) of salt. He is already backtracking on his promise made during the last election to annex all of the settlements. I'll say now what I've said then: It's election talk. Netanyahu is trying to take away votes from the far-right Otzma LeIsrael party and keep them under the voter threshold, so that he isn't force to give them government positions to create a coalition. He's all talk and no action.
    Some political analysts say that Trump will greenlight West Bank annexation to force Israeli pols to keep Netanyahu as PM, but who knows...Trump is the King of Israel, not Netanyahu. I quote Trump,
    That would lose Netanyahu support, not gain it. No sane Israeli wants an annexation of the whole west bank, at least not those who want to have a democratic state.
    Trump's probably more popular in Israel than Netanyahu to be honest.


  4. #204
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    No sane Israeli wants an annexation of the whole west bank, at least not those who want to have a democratic state.
    That's good to hear...
    But-there is always a but - the occupation only got worse during the last decades, the long military occupation became more permanent than ever, the settlements are constantly expanding...

    Israel okays major West Bank settlement roads, seizing large tracts of
    Special Coordinator Reports Largest Expansion of West Bank
    UN slams Israel's 'effective annexation' of West Bank after 2,000 ...










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  5. #205

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Regarding campaign promises, credibility, annexations, settlements, etc...

    Netanyahu has claimed that Gantz supported an Obama administration proposal that involved evacuating settlements from the Jordan Valley. However, Martin Indyk (former US ambassador to Israel under Obama) claims that in fact it was Netanyahu who supported the plan, and that it was Moshe Ya'alon (then Israel's defense minster) who vetoed it. Ya'alon is now the third place man in Gantz's Blue and White party. A couple months back, Gantz said, “The valley is the State of Israel’s eastern protective wall and will always remain under our control”. Ya'alon has likewise said, “Anyone who understands anything about security knows that the valley has to be an inseparable part of Israel”.

    The two takeaways: 1) Netanyahu's public statements regarding annexation aren't to be trusted, and 2) The status quo in the West Bank isn't likely to change much if the center-left coalition comes to power.

    A government without settler affiliated parties in its coalition is less likely to pander to them on expansion in the center of the West Bank, but nothing will change west of the security barrier where most Israelis in the West Bank actually live. Notwithstanding the Deal of the Century, the occupation will continue business as usual, because there are no realistic solutions that satisfy the bare minimum demands of both sides. While this may be a main point of interest for some posters/readers here, it's a pretty irrelevant issue for most of the Israeli electorate.

    According to the last round of polls, neither the center-left nor the right wing coalition will have the minimum 61 MKs needed to form a ruling coalition. Which means that Liberman will probably be the kingmaker again. As you may all remember, it was Liberman's refusal to compromise with Netanyahu last time that sent Israelis back to the polls so quickly. Liberman has vowed to force a unity government without the religious parties, but then he may just negotiate from a strong position to join one or the other coalitions. Gantz has said he's open to a unity government with Likud, but without Netanyahu.

    Another possibility is that the Labor Party doesn't even pass the threshold, even after merging with Gesher. If that's the case, the final counts are harder to predict. Netanyahu could potentially have enough without Liberman in that case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  6. #206
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    To quote your article (btw, you really should use a source other than Haaretz):
    "The existing Route 60, which crosses the West Bank, goes through several Palestinian villages. Israeli settlers have called for the paving of bypass roads, claiming driving through Palestinian villages endangers them, following several attempted attacks near Hawara over the past few years, including an attempted stabbing in recent weeks."
    Maybe if they stopped trying to kill people who are passing through their village bypasses wouldn't have to be made?
    Largest expansion in 2 years isn't particularly impressive.
    Yes, the population is growing and Israel is building houses. For Arabs too, btw, Netanyahu recently approved 700 buildings in Arab populated parts of area C.


    @Sumskillz
    Likud almost always performs better than pre-election polls show, also with the lower turnout we can expect the Ultra-orthodox parties to gain strength as their base will still vote
    Last edited by nhytgbvfeco2; September 15, 2019 at 11:15 AM.


  7. #207
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Feco2 have you considered maybe the settlements shouldn’t exist in the first place?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Well if you survive a beheading I feel like that's fair enough you get to go home

  8. #208

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    It doesn't really matter what the majority Israelis think, evacuating settlements is pretty much political suicide for any Israeli politician. The problem is they resist, so then you get images and videos of guys in uniforms forcefully evicting entire families - children weeping from tear gas, young kids having asthma attacks in the middle of a brawl, guys with bleeding head wounds holding their infant daughter in one hand while trying to fight off helmeted guys armed with batons, women trying to cover their children while a mob of soldiers try to pull her off. The whole scene starts to look way too much like the Nazis clearing out the Warsaw Ghetto.

    This is what happened when Israeli police evacuated a single building (note the local Palestinians' appreciation):



    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    also with the lower turnout we can expect the Ultra-orthodox parties to gain strength as their base will still vote
    I imagine they're also hard to poll.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  9. #209
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Yeah but how did the settlements get there in the first place. Why should I have sympathy when they’re not even supposed to be there. And if they’re not stupid, they know that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Well if you survive a beheading I feel like that's fair enough you get to go home

  10. #210

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Read about the Gush Emunim if you wanna learn about the origins of settlements.

  11. #211

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Yeah but how did the settlements get there in the first place. Why should I have sympathy when they’re not even supposed to be there. And if they’re not stupid, they know that.
    There are two types of settlements. The first type are those west of the security barrier in territory which Israel basically claims because it’s strategically important and because there is no official border between Israel and the Palestinian territories and there never has been. The people who live in these areas, which are most Israelis in the West Bank, are typical Israeli citizens most of whom can’t afford housing in safer areas.

    The second type of settlement are those established out in the middle of the West Bank by the Religious Zionist movement. These were almost all established illegally according to Israeli law. Though many were eventually legalized for various reasons, sometimes just that having people off the grid creates its own problems, sometimes because a particular government needed Religious Zionists support to remain in power. Sukiyama’s suggestion is good if you want more information on how all that went down, but I’ll give a bit of history relevant to your question.

    The Zionist movement was secular, its founder was an atheist. Originally Orthodox Jews were hostile to Zionism, because they believed Jews were in exile because of God’s will and that only God could reestablish a Jewish State. Nevertheless, many Orthodox Jews lived in and around Jerusalem during the Ottoman Period and many times more arrived because they were fleeing the Nazis or Arab persecution. Then came along a rabbi named Abraham Isaac Kook, who argued that even though the Zionists were non-religious, they had unwittingly set in motion God’s plan. In that, Kook founded Religious Zionism. The British supported Kook as chief rabbi in the Mandate and facilitated his work, because they wanted to minimize tensions between the Zionists and the Orthodox Jews which he was trying to bring together.

    Nevertheless, Religious Zionism remained insignificant until the early 1970s. Many Israelis expected the 1967 and 1973 wars to end in a second Holocaust, yet both turned out to be great Israeli victories. Some Orthodox Jews started seeing this as a direct sign from God that Kook was right, and that led to the Religious Zionist settler movement. They believe that settling the West Bank is part of the process that will lead to a Messianic age and peace for all humanity.

    So to answer your second question. It doesn’t matter if you have sympathy. Any Israeli leader who tries to evict the settlers creates massive sympathy for them within the Israeli electorate even among those who don’t at all care about the settlements. Such a leader would simply be replaced, and the settlers will continue on with their plan. As for the settlers knowing they are not supposed to be there, on the contrary, they "know" absolutely due to a direct sign from the highest authority that they are supposed to be there.
    Last edited by sumskilz; September 16, 2019 at 12:07 AM. Reason: typos
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  12. #212
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Well it’s nice to know Netanyahu puts getting elected before following the law.

    As for the illegal settlers, it’s pretty clear the actual highest authority says what they they are doing is illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Well if you survive a beheading I feel like that's fair enough you get to go home

  13. #213

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Well it’s nice to know Netanyahu puts getting elected before following the law.
    No Israeli PM has ever made a significant effort to evict settlers in the West Bank other than in some isolated cases where private Palestinian property rights were infringed so it was forced by the high court. Former Israeli governments have dismantled settlements in the Sinai and Gaza, but it took right wing leaders in solid political positions with the promise of major benefits in return. The problem is there is much greater ideological attachment to the West Bank than Gaza or Sinai and the idea of land for peace has been thoroughly discredited in most Israelis' eyes. I can imagine an Israeli government willing to evacuate settlements in the West Bank in exchange for a peace deal that recognizes Israeli control of the areas west of the security barrier in exchange for land swaps while allowing Israel to retain security control of the Jordan Valley, but I can’t imagine the Palestinians agreeing to that. It probably wouldn’t end the conflict anyway, because there will for the foreseeable future always be a segment of the Palestinian society that refuses to give up any part of historical Palestine and there will always be Religious Zionists who refuse to give up historical Judea and Samaria. It’s much easier for the radicals to drag the moderates into a conflict than it is for the moderates to stop it, because all the radicals need to do is provoke the other side into politically obligatory retaliation.

    Israelis may differ one way or the other from me on this prognosis to some degree, but most essentially accept it, which is why the so-called peace process is irrelevant to most Israel voters and Palestinians alike. It’s more a thing each side has to go through the motions of in order to gain favor with various Westerners.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  14. #214
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    However, this is one thing that antagonizes the other side and doesn’t help Israel appear as even wanting to have peace. The settlements are one of the bigger things that serves as political ammunition for Hamas propaganda and turns foreign observers against Israel. Netanyahu allowing the settlements, and eventually annexing them for domestic political reasons is absolutely pathetic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Well if you survive a beheading I feel like that's fair enough you get to go home

  15. #215
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Any Israeli leader who tries to evict the settlers creates massive sympathy for them within the Israeli electorate even among those who don’t at all care about the settlements. Such a leader would simply be replaced
    All Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories are illegal, but it doesn't matter at all. In fact, the U.S.-Israel alliance is expansive, extensive and expensive. But it's old news...read the full article.
    Israel says it is “entitled to violate the sovereignty of foreign countries” Excerpts,

    The Israeli government has recently claimed that it can “legislate anywhere in the world”, that it is “entitled to violate the sovereignty of foreign countries”, and that “is allowed to ignore the directives of international law in any field it desires This was written in an official response letter to the Supreme Court last month.

    The Israeli government was represented by a private lawyer, Harel Arnon, because Attorney General Avichai Mandelblit refused to defend the law in court, since he deemed it illegal by international law already when it was first passed.
    The Settlement Regularization Law was passed in February last year, in order to retroactively legalize thousands of settler homes and structures built on Palestinian private land, to avert the possibility that the Supreme Court might one day sanction their removal.
    It was not only Haaretz that called the law a “theft law” – it was also longtime Likudniks such as lawmaker Benny Begin; Former Likud minister Dan Meridor called it “evil and dangerous”;

    ...even Prime Minister Netanyahu was warning that passing it may end up getting Israeli officials to the International Criminal Court in The Hague; attorney General Avichai Mandelblit’s stated refusal to defend the law in court was met with reassurance by Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked that the state could simply get a private attorney (which it did). The contentious matter was not only the theft itself – but the application of Israeli law enacted directly by the Knesset (rather than by the Military occupation authority), that was seen as a precedence leading to de-facto annexation.

    As Dan Meridor wrote in his Haaretz opinion piece just ahead of the final vote on the law:
    “The Knesset has never enacted legislation regulating Arabs’ property ownership in Judea and Samaria. The Knesset was elected by Israelis and legislates for them. The Arabs of Judea and Samaria did not vote for the Knesset, and it has no authority to legislate for them. These are basic principles of democracy and Israeli law. As a rule, elected officials legislate for their constituents and those within the area of their jurisdiction, not others.

    No government in Israel has applied its sovereignty to the West Bank – not former Likud prime ministers Menachem Begin or Yitzhak Shamir. They understood the obvious: If you want to pass legislation for the West Bank, you have to extend your sovereignty and allow the residents of Judea and Samaria the right to become citizens and vote in Knesset elections. And the meaning is clear.”
    I should add a critical note here about Meridor’s central claim – that it is in fact erroneous regarding the West Bank, in that East Jerusalem is by international law a part of the West Bank, and Israel has applied its sovereignty unilaterally upon it (de facto since 1967, and in quasi-constitutional basic law in 1980, in defiance of international law and UNSC resolutions). The fact that Meridor simply considers East Jerusalem a part of Israel, and now goes to admonish Israel for basically doing the same (de facto annexation) regarding the rest of the West Bank, only goes to show that this is a case of the blind leading the blind.

    (...)The State of Israel, in the recent response letter (Hebrew) to the court (filed August 7th), claimed in its defense that:
    [1] ‘The Knesset has no limitation which prevents it from legislating extra-territorially anywhere in the world, including the area [‘Judea and Samaria’]’.

    ...and goes further to suggest that it is not at all subject to the directives of international law:

    [4] ‘…Although the Knesset can legislate [concerning] any place in the world, although it is entitled to violate the sovereignty of foreign countries through legislation that would be applied to events occurring in their territories […], although it is within the authority of the Government of Israel to annex any territory […], although the Knesset may ignore directives of international law in any area it pleases […] despite all these, the plaintiffs seek to define a “rule” by which precisely in Judea and Samaria the Knesset is prohibited from legislating anything, and that precisely there, and nowhere else in the world, it is subject to the directives of international law’.
    Someone wrote in response: "John Bolton must be pea green with envy!".
    ---
    Edit,
    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    So to answer your second question. It doesn’t matter if you have sympathy.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It's not just Aexodus.Nobody has

    As we already know, the slogan about the strong and the weak comes from the Athenian Israelite side of the argument, with a barely veiled arrogance- "The powerful exact what they can, and the weak have to comply"











    Last edited by Ludicus; September 16, 2019 at 04:53 PM.
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  16. #216

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    There are two types of settlements. The first type are those west of the security barrier in territory which Israel basically claims because it’s strategically important and because there is no official border between Israel and the Palestinian territories and there never has been. The people who live in these areas, which are most Israelis in the West Bank, are typical Israeli citizens most of whom can’t afford housing in safer areas.
    I'm unsure about the way you frame this issue. "Economic settlements" may very well be cheap housing, but cheap in what way? I'm sure it's cheaper to have a 2,000 sq. foot house with a swimming pool in the West Bank than it is to have a family sized condo in Tel Aviv, yet I struggle to find sympathy for the "struggling" settlers. Similarly, I'm sure the West Bank is a cheap place to live in comparison to Tel Aviv, but what about the poorest sections of Tel Aviv? Haifa? Rahat? What makes West Bank safer anyway? Relaxed gun ownership?

    The second type of settlement are those established out in the middle of the West Bank by the Religious Zionist movement. These were almost all established illegally according to Israeli law. Though many were eventually legalized for various reasons, sometimes just that having people off the grid creates its own problems, sometimes because a particular government needed Religious Zionists support to remain in power. Sukiyama’s suggestion is good if you want more information on how all that went down, but I’ll give a bit of history relevant to your question.

    The Zionist movement was secular, its founder was an atheist. Originally Orthodox Jews were hostile to Zionism, because they believed Jews were in exile because of God’s will and that only God could reestablish a Jewish State. Nevertheless, many Orthodox Jews lived in and around Jerusalem during the Ottoman Period and many times more arrived because they were fleeing the Nazis or Arab persecution. Then came along a rabbi named Abraham Isaac Kook, who argued that even though the Zionists were non-religious, they had unwittingly set in motion God’s plan. In that, Kook founded Religious Zionism. The British supported Kook as chief rabbi in the Mandate and facilitated his work, because they wanted to minimize tensions between the Zionists and the Orthodox Jews which he was trying to bring together.

    Nevertheless, Religious Zionism remained insignificant until the early 1970s. Many Israelis expected the 1967 and 1973 wars to end in a second Holocaust, yet both turned out to be great Israeli victories. Some Orthodox Jews started seeing this as a direct sign from God that Kook was right, and that led to the Religious Zionist settler movement. They believe that settling the West Bank is part of the process that will lead to a Messianic age and peace for all humanity.

    So to answer your second question. It doesn’t matter if you have sympathy. Any Israeli leader who tries to evict the settlers creates massive sympathy for them within the Israeli electorate even among those who don’t at all care about the settlements. Such a leader would simply be replaced, and the settlers will continue on with their plan. As for the settlers knowing they are not supposed to be there, on the contrary, they "know" absolutely due to a direct sign from the highest authority that they are supposed to be there.
    Again, I'm not in total agreement about your characterization of the history of Zionism, or settlements. I understand that brevity is important, but "Zionism" cannot be reasonably coalesced as a single movement. There were many different competing ideas, and while the Zionist organizations that led to the founding of Israel obviously co-operated and had a common vision, they were not in agreement on even their basic political ideology. I doubt there was a whole lot of camaraderie between the Histadrut and the JNF for instance.

    Aside from that, I suppose you are fairly accurate, that religious elements of zionism did not come to the forefront until the 70s in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. However, I would argue that territorial maximalism from the Israeli right is really what allowed settlements to flourish. Which was aided by Gush Emunim movement who became unwitting allies (or perhaps intentional) of revisionist zionists. What started at first, as "religious hipsters" building tents in order to make an obnoxious political demonstration, became, by the late 70s, a de facto invasion. The Israeli right has not always been a staunch ally of the Gush Emunim or the wider settlement movement (the withdrawal from Gaza for example), but a wider analysis would indicate, in my opinion, that the times when the Israeli right went against the settlers, was when they were pressured by external political factors. I.e. negotiations with Palestinians, U.S., and so on. However, inaction and indecisiveness is a really an approval towards the settler movement.

    Then there's the actual religious or political extremists in settlements like Hebron. It's a joke, that such a situation is allowed to carry on. The inaction of Israeli governments for decades about such a brazen and obvious issue simply points out that Israel has no interest in any kind of solution.

  17. #217

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    It's not just Aexodus. Nobody has
    I get it, you don't have any sympathy for whatever bad happens to kids because their parents chose to cross a border illegally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    I'm unsure about the way you frame this issue. "Economic settlements" may very well be cheap housing, but cheap in what way? I'm sure it's cheaper to have a 2,000 sq. foot house with a swimming pool in the West Bank than it is to have a family sized condo in Tel Aviv, yet I struggle to find sympathy for the "struggling" settlers. Similarly, I'm sure the West Bank is a cheap place to live in comparison to Tel Aviv, but what about the poorest sections of Tel Aviv? Haifa? Rahat? What makes West Bank safer anyway? Relaxed gun ownership?
    The West Bank is less safe. For normal Israelis, as in non-ideologically motivated, the only reason to live just across the line Green Line is economic. By American standards the cost of living in Israel is insane, especially housing. Only the extremely wealthy live in what we call houses. I've been all over the country, and I've never seen a house other than in kibbutzes. Even then, the kibbutz houses are more like the size of a single wide trailer in the US. Most Israelis live in what we would call condos. They call them apartments. There isn't a difference in Israel. When you rent an apartment, you rent from the owner, nobody owns the building. Unlike the US, you always have to pay all the utilities when you rent, plus the bi-monthly city taxes, plus the monthly condo fee. My apartment near the university in Tel Aviv which is nice by Israeli standards, typical by American standards, is roughly $2,650 per month.

    So I did an experiment on your question, just as much to educate myself. I found the absolute cheapest apartment currently for rent in Tel Aviv and compared it to what is on the cheaper side just across the green line. I picked 3 bedroom apartments for the reason that the typical secular Israeli family has 3 kids, so 2 of the kids would have to share a bedroom. It's mostly families that live in settlements.

    The absolute cheapest apartment I could find in Tel Aviv is roughly $1,760 per month. It's 861 sq feet (80 sq meters), in the high crime area next to the central bus station, on a really busy traffic clogged four lane street, and looks like this (one of those on the floor right above the businesses):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Plus that area always smells like industrial waste and hot garbage.

    Just across the green line, close enough to commute to Tel Aviv (20 miles, 33 km) the cheapest place in Sha'arei Tikva is roughly $1,155. It's 969 sq feet (90 sq meters). It's an apartment in a small multiplex with a yard in a nice open neighborhood. This is the best street view I could get:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The view across the street for each to get a sense of the neighborhoods:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In addition to housing prices, incomes are lower in Israel than in the US, but everything in Israel seems to cost at least 50% more. Cars seem to cost two and a half times a much. The monthly prices I'm giving don't included utilities, just rent+housing tax+monthly condo fee, which is the price you have to think of as equivalent to rent in the US, since our rentals don't have the latter two. I think utilities are all higher than in the US as well. My last electric bill was about $395. I don't think I ever paid half that much in Seattle. Average monthly wage in Israel is $3,030, with a 20% tax rate so take home is $2,424. Minimum monthly wage for full time work in Israel is $1,495 with a 10% tax rate, so take home is $1,345. Families with 7 kids are not uncommon in Israel, in fact that's the Haredi average.

    When I first got to Tel Aviv, I stayed in a few Airbnb places. One of them was a three bedroom apartment with three couples living in it, that's six rent paying adults, at least it had been. The girlfriend of one of the couples had moved out, so the guy that lived in that bedroom was sleeping on the floor in the hallway and renting out his bedroom as an Airbnb place because he couldn't afford a third of the rent without his girlfriend, and the place was really run down by American standards. Another one that was sort of a culture shock, is I stayed with this girl in a similar arrangement. It was a typical old 6 floor apartment building with no elevators. It seemed like everyone in the building would come to knock on the door to ask to borrow her hair trimmer, men, women, whoever. She would pull out this old mechanical thing that looked like it was from the seventies, made terrible noises. Apparently she was the only one that had one. But the reason I say it was kind of a culture shock is think about why a girl has a hair trimmer. She sure didn't have short hair or a beard. I just can't imagine that in the US, everyone in the neighborhood using some girl's pubic hair trimmer.

    Cost of living is an election issue.

    You also mentioned the enclave in Hebron. It's ridiculous, think about how much money goes into constantly protecting those people, which is of benefit to no one else.
    Last edited by sumskilz; September 17, 2019 at 02:35 AM. Reason: additions
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  18. #218
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Similarly, I'm sure the West Bank is a cheap place to live in comparison to Tel Aviv, but what about the poorest sections of Tel Aviv? Haifa? Rahat? What makes West Bank safer anyway? Relaxed gun ownership?
    Rahat is a Bedouin city, a Jew doesn't simply get to live there.
    It's less safe, which drives down prices. Ironically, if the palis resisted in more peaceful ways it would be safer and prices would go up, so there'd be fewer people living there.


    Again, I'm not in total agreement about your characterization of the history of Zionism, or settlements. I understand that brevity is important, but "Zionism" cannot be reasonably coalesced as a single movement. There were many different competing ideas, and while the Zionist organizations that led to the founding of Israel obviously co-operated and had a common vision, they were not in agreement on even their basic political ideology. I doubt there was a whole lot of camaraderie between the Histadrut and the JNF for instance.

    Aside from that, I suppose you are fairly accurate, that religious elements of zionism did not come to the forefront until the 70s in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. However, I would argue that territorial maximalism from the Israeli right is really what allowed settlements to flourish. Which was aided by Gush Emunim movement who became unwitting allies (or perhaps intentional) of revisionist zionists. What started at first, as "religious hipsters" building tents in order to make an obnoxious political demonstration, became, by the late 70s, a de facto invasion. The Israeli right has not always been a staunch ally of the Gush Emunim or the wider settlement movement (the withdrawal from Gaza for example), but a wider analysis would indicate, in my opinion, that the times when the Israeli right went against the settlers, was when they were pressured by external political factors. I.e. negotiations with Palestinians, U.S., and so on. However, inaction and indecisiveness is a really an approval towards the settler movement.

    Then there's the actual religious or political extremists in settlements like Hebron. It's a joke, that such a situation is allowed to carry on. The inaction of Israeli governments for decades about such a brazen and obvious issue simply points out that Israel has no interest in any kind of solution.
    He's talking about the religious Zionist movement specifically, not Zionists in general.
    And yes, you're right, the Israeli right only acted against the settlers when there was an external factor (save for the Gaza withdrawl), but the Israeli left has done far less.

    As we already know, the slogan about the strong and the weak comes from the Athenian Israelite side of the argument, with a barely veiled arrogance- "The powerful exact what they can, and the weak have to comply"
    When one side repeatedly attempts to annihilate the other there are consequences. They keep making demands, but offer nothing in return.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    However, this is one thing that antagonizes the other side and doesn’t help Israel appear as even wanting to have peace. The settlements are one of the bigger things that serves as political ammunition for Hamas propaganda and turns foreign observers against Israel. Netanyahu allowing the settlements, and eventually annexing them for domestic political reasons is absolutely pathetic.
    Netanyahu hasn't and won't annex anything. He's too much of a coward to take significant action, to either side.


    In other news, the election is today! hopefully we won't need a round 3.


  19. #219
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Intersesting stuff, thanks to sumskilz and feco2!

    As a side question, why is living in Israel so expensive?

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    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019. New elections announced for September.

    Because when the state was founded it was done by the early Zionists, who were by and large Socialists. After a long time running the country, the Likud party managed to win and started a process of Liberalisation, but it never quite finished and the process was done poorly. There are enormous monopolies because of the way state run industries were sold, and very little effort has gone into breaking them. Additionally the high taxes from the socialist days were never lowered, the minimum wage keeps getting increased and a high military spending that goes unchecked (read: a lot of money gets wasted pointlessly) as well as the army being forced to employ and pay for a larger number of soldiers than it realistically needs due to mandatory military service, and on top of all that add tarrifs on just about everything imported into the country (for example, a 100% tax on imported cars, even though the purpose of tariffs is to promote local manufacturing and there are no cars being manufactured locally) as well as requiring special permits on literally every import you want to sell to help pay salaries to unneeded bureaucrats all result in a high cost of living. I'm sure that there's more I forgot to mention.

    On the topic of the election, contrary to expectations so far, at this hour, this is the highest turnout since 1984 at 15% of votes having been cast by 10am. This will be an interesting election.


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