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Thread: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

  1. #21
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Put Europe, but also include Asia.

    It would be impossible to do a detailed map from Europe to the Americas to Asia.

    I'd personally be excited for the Amercias because then thanks to alternate history, we can have Aztecs conquering Europe.

    City battle maps MUST NEED VARIATION. I CANNOT STRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS. I DO NOT WISH TO PLAY COPY PASTE MAPS AND MEDIUM CITY SIZED SETTLEMENTS. IF THAT IS FUN THEN NO IT ISN'T.

    They must do it in an Empire format. That way the maps don't collide with each other in many respects.





















































  2. #22
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Ohh I forgot garrisonable buildings/objects :-)

  3. #23
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Endless buildings are unrealistic for me. Why play historical setting when you can make new Rome/Constantinople from any small no-name village? Plus it removes ANY specialization.
    Although I understand your point and quite liked the Shogun 2 system, I disagree because for me that's part of the beauty of the "what-if" aspect of Medieval 2 Total War. I get why Altdorf gets more slots than the rest of the province. "It's the lore!"

    What if I want to make a new Rome on a small village on the Baltic because a got a sweet real estate deal? I can concede that probably more restrictive population growth models would be in order so that in order to make an imperial sized city I had to make active measures for population growth but imo the fact that you can make your own history is one of the reasons that made it so great.

    About specialization, in vanilla M2TW you had to make choices as funds (and turns) were limited so it resulted in specialization because the AI had the diplomacy prowess of North Korea, particularly at higher difficulties, you would spend most of your money in recruitment and upkeep. By the time you had money for everything you were already so bloated that specialization was pretty pointless as no one had the power to defeat you anymore (and it is why Realm Divide was so good imo)

  4. #24
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wandering Storyteller View Post
    Put Europe, but also include Asia.

    It would be impossible to do a detailed map from Europe to the Americas to Asia.

    I'd personally be excited for the Amercias because then thanks to alternate history, we can have Aztecs conquering Europe.

    City battle maps MUST NEED VARIATION. I CANNOT STRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS. I DO NOT WISH TO PLAY COPY PASTE MAPS AND MEDIUM CITY SIZED SETTLEMENTS. IF THAT IS FUN THEN NO IT ISN'T.

    They must do it in an Empire format. That way the maps don't collide with each other in many respects.
    The line in blue is what i shout since day 1 of Attila release! There is ONLY one coastal and only one inland battlemap model of settlements per culture and per size.
    Again and again you defend CLONED settlements!!! +1 rep
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  5. #25
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    I am sure not what you mean by defending cloned settlements, but I am a bit apathetic now by playing the same RII city maps hoping there is some variation. And the Attila coyotes are shaped like a bottle has anyone noticed that? I wish CA would just release TED for RII at this point. Ancient Empires did a better job!





















































  6. #26
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wandering Storyteller View Post
    I am sure not what you mean by defending cloned settlements, but I am a bit apathetic now by playing the same RII city maps hoping there is some variation. And the Attila coyotes are shaped like a bottle has anyone noticed that? I wish CA would just release TED for RII at this point. Ancient Empires did a better job!
    Clone means "exactly same". For example: In Attila a eastern Roman village is the ONE AND ONLY everywhere! There is NOT a second model. The Eastern Roman coastal village is also ONE and only EVERYWHERE.
    That happens in every level of settlements in every culture. That is what i mean CLONED.
    In M2TW there were atleast 4 variations in each settlement and each castle level per culture. In Attila that number is simply ONE(1).
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  7. #27
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Clone means "exactly same". For example: In Attila a eastern Roman village is the ONE AND ONLY everywhere! There is NOT a second model. The Eastern Roman coastal village is also ONE and only EVERYWHERE.
    That happens in every level of settlements in every culture. That is what i mean CLONED.
    In M2TW there were atleast 4 variations in each settlement and each castle level per culture. In Attila that number is simply ONE(1).
    This should honestly have been the bane of total war issues. Not AI (even though that's important yes but I've come to accept CA refuses to improve their AI. Paradox is already well aware of this fact.) Shogun 2 had some variation (but not all castles were different individually and were artificial maps, thoroughly not reflecting the actual Japanese battle maps, and Master of Stragety does a great job in changing this.)

    RII is the crux of the issue. Its battle maps are good in variety, but the ambush battles have a distinct lack of unique maps, and Carthage map - CA cutting so much from the map doesn't make it fun. Sieges don't have siege escalation, and its the same damn city. You would have thought CA could have added more Eastern city maps - but oh no. Just 3 big unique maps. Med 2 also had the same problem. Americas campaign you only have 4 distinct types of Aztec city but that's it. There's no other distinct type of Aztec city.

    Forget female generals in RII - Mods could have finished this issue -RII should have been talked on about the fact that there is no TED for RII.

    Why RII - even if you don't like it, is still being actively played by the fanbase?

    Why with all the new updates, does it not have TED?

    Attila has some of the worst modding tools ever known in the history of CA's declining and gradually lackluster support for modding tools. How is that Ancient Empire developers managed to find a battle map/import etc? CA didn't even bother to support Attila modding tools at this point. The TED map mods in Attila are only 28-30. No where near the Shogun 2 scale. And the only popular ones are Doomon15's RII styled maps.

    Ancient Empire is a success that it shows what can be done with dogged determination and pursuit. However, RII recieved a family tree, new graphics lighting finally removing the horrendous night lighting and received three new DLCs.

    CA knows this game is the most popular out of all their franchise looking now.

    Why hasn't TED been released for this game?





















































  8. #28
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wandering Storyteller View Post
    This should honestly have been the bane of total war issues. Not AI (even though that's important yes but I've come to accept CA refuses to improve their AI. Paradox is already well aware of this fact.) Shogun 2 had some variation (but not all castles were different individually and were artificial maps, thoroughly not reflecting the actual Japanese battle maps, and Master of Stragety does a great job in changing this.)

    RII is the crux of the issue. Its battle maps are good in variety, but the ambush battles have a distinct lack of unique maps, and Carthage map - CA cutting so much from the map doesn't make it fun. Sieges don't have siege escalation, and its the same damn city. You would have thought CA could have added more Eastern city maps - but oh no. Just 3 big unique maps. Med 2 also had the same problem. Americas campaign you only have 4 distinct types of Aztec city but that's it. There's no other distinct type of Aztec city.

    Forget female generals in RII - Mods could have finished this issue -RII should have been talked on about the fact that there is no TED for RII.

    Why RII - even if you don't like it, is still being actively played by the fanbase?

    Why with all the new updates, does it not have TED?

    Attila has some of the worst modding tools ever known in the history of CA's declining and gradually lackluster support for modding tools. How is that Ancient Empire developers managed to find a battle map/import etc? CA didn't even bother to support Attila modding tools at this point. The TED map mods in Attila are only 28-30. No where near the Shogun 2 scale. And the only popular ones are Doomon15's RII styled maps.

    Ancient Empire is a success that it shows what can be done with dogged determination and pursuit. However, RII recieved a family tree, new graphics lighting finally removing the horrendous night lighting and received three new DLCs.

    CA knows this game is the most popular out of all their franchise looking now.

    Why hasn't TED been released for this game?
    Do you know for the exact same critic CA/SEGA banned me from its official site and its FB page . In the official site I can no longer activate my account in their attempt to silence me.
    Its their right ofcourse. They tried here as well long ago ... but no matter what they do I wont stop telling their failures and their lies about the games they sold us.
    If you nottice i make no critic for Napoleon TW or the WarHammer TW either simply because i do not own these games and it would be a lie to make critics about them. But for the games i own and tested as a TW long and hardcore player since Shogun I , my voice wont be silenced untill my life will comes to its end ...I hope my mod will be released by then in order to fulfill my promise to those that believed in my dream for historical accuracy , realism and above all respect for all religions and cultures.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  9. #29
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Do you know for the exact same critic CA/SEGA banned me from its official site and its FB page . In the official site I can no longer activate my account in their attempt to silence me.
    Its their right ofcourse. They tried here as well long ago ... but no matter what they do I wont stop telling their failures and their lies about the games they sold us.
    If you nottice i make no critic for Napoleon TW or the WarHammer TW either simply because i do not own these games and it would be a lie to make critics about them. But for the games i own and tested as a TW long and hardcore player since Shogun I , my voice wont be silenced untill my life will comes to its end ...I hope my mod will be released by then in order to fulfill my promise to those that believed in my dream for historical accuracy , realism and above all respect for all religions and cultures.

    You wouldn't be the first to complain against CA and that would happen. In an ironic way, Darthmod left the total war series at its peak. Its a shame he hasn't returned, but I think he too would find the modding tools very restrictive. It's been 9 years since he left. That is a very long time. I wonder what he would have made of the RII nonsense debacle that occurred.
    As of now CA Warhammer's battle maps truly reflect what the new base of CA dev team wants. Restrictive maps, not letting the players engage in fun visuals. They're going for strategy rather than visuals. Look at the Ai on that lol. It's the reason they were shocked when modders managed to unlock Warhammer (CA hasn't allowed this to happen in a long time) campaign map and edit it with new maps.

    What is your mod about?

    Moving back to the topic of Med 3, I'm not sure CA will attempt it because of RII.
    Last edited by The Wandering Storyteller; February 16, 2019 at 12:37 PM.





















































  10. #30
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wandering Storyteller View Post
    You wouldn't be the first to complain against CA and that would happen. In an ironic way, Darthmod left the total war series at its peak. Its a shame he hasn't returned, but I think he too would find the modding tools very restrictive. It's been 9 years since he left. That is a very long time. I wonder what he would have made of the RII nonsense debacle that occurred.
    As of now CA Warhammer's battle maps truly reflect what the new base of CA dev team wants. Restrictive maps, not letting the players engage in fun visuals. They're going for strategy rather than visuals. Look at the Ai on that lol. It's the reason they were shocked when modders managed to unlock Warhammer (CA hasn't allowed this to happen in a long time) campaign map and edit it with new maps.

    What is your mod about?

    Moving back to the topic of Med 3, I'm not sure CA will attempt it because of RII.
    Yea i remember Darth Vader , it seams yesterday that we spoke -as you said - 9 years ago!
    Today's dev team of CA/SEGA is unable to simply create what in Rome I and M2TW engine had for creating unique battlemaps (depending on the strat_map tiles)...
    A tile left or right , down or lower and a totaly new battlemap is creating...They can not even do that!!
    The last hope -inorder to see descent TW games again- is that Paradox would buy the battle system of CA/SEGA and have a realy good game with best AI and realy good battles.

    My modding career started as a researcher creating Complete Byzantine Unit Roster project and expanding to a mod called The Great Conflicts 872-1071 .
    The mod is underdevelopment for almost 9 years simply because I am a detail "freek" (Ceasar Clivus used to say that I am a crazy guy that asks his teammates to do the impossible).
    Luckily i was forthuned enough to find many FRIENDS to share the same crazyness for historical accuracy (as possible) .Personaly i contacted mr D'Ammato , mr Timothy Dawson , Mr Katsikes (hellenic Armors) and finally mr G.Rava that gave me their advices and their permison (espesialy mr G.Rava that his art work is the basis of our creations) to continue that ambitius project. Also 2 of our members that involved in the project were REAL Historians that helped us "see" through the eyes of the "opposite" site. You see when someone makes a mod his has a spesific prospective based on his national education and pride. But a mod that hopes to become a "playable teaching tool" forces us to see how things were seen on the "enemy's" point of view.
    In our Previews you will find two "Roman Empires" for example showing how the people of those two political identities defined themselves.
    I am a Greek and Greeks have a long "hate" for Bulgarians by "default" but thanks to our Bulgarian FRIENDS in the mod's fellowship we wanted to see how those people saw the wars against Romans (later Greeks).
    We wanted to expirience how the magnificent Islamic World broke in to pieces trying to be Caliph in the place of the Caliph leading to their weakness to defend against the 1st Crusade (TGC ends with the battle of Matzikert 6 years before the 1st Crusade). That hunting for accuracy (we never claim that we are perfect though) is what in this mod people will see. From the political events to the highly detailed armors (up to the last nail on them). Maybe Ceasar Clivus was right ...maybe i am the crazy one that asks the impossible but from unique animations to highly detailed textures we are almost there..Unforthunatly my health is on the cutting edge for a number of reasons. But i intend to keep my promise to those that believed in that dream and some still work hard on it , will come true.





    Yes in previus post of mine i count 10 things a M3TW should have that with the curent developing team can not be done.
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; February 16, 2019 at 02:57 PM.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  11. #31

    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Wow. That's a lot of great ideas and opinions in this thread. Amazing.

  12. #32
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Do you know for the exact same critic CA/SEGA banned me from its official site and its FB page . In the official site I can no longer activate my account in their attempt to silence me.
    Its their right ofcourse. They tried here as well long ago ... but no matter what they do I wont stop telling their failures and their lies about the games they sold us.
    If you nottice i make no critic for Napoleon TW or the WarHammer TW either simply because i do not own these games and it would be a lie to make critics about them. But for the games i own and tested as a TW long and hardcore player since Shogun I , my voice wont be silenced untill my life will comes to its end ...I hope my mod will be released by then in order to fulfill my promise to those that believed in my dream for historical accuracy , realism and above all respect for all religions and cultures.
    Mod looks great though isn't my time period, but what you have achieved is a lot more than CA is making at the moment.


    CA is trying to be a global company now, trying to over-achieve and makes it games streamlined in an effort to say: Hey, we're no longer a niche company! Notice the style of writing, their blogs, their advertising etc. The same youtubers that they liked are now ignored in favour of newer youtubers as well.


    If Paradox can buy total war(I seriously think Paradox has considered this, but they can't compete against Sega.) it would be a god-send.


    But it won't happen in about 25 years later depending on what happens.





















































  13. #33
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    I believe sieges, rams and catapults are essentials. Other things may include horse power, archers, maybe some Da Vinci inventions as well? I mean why not, lets add some Da Vinci inventions, it is going to be epic. Just imagine medieval battlefield with Da Vinci tanks and other cool cannons, etc.

  14. #34
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    I would basically love a Medieval 2 remake with the following addons:

    Technical:
    - Work on 64bit systems only for the memory issues.

    Strategic map:
    - Removed the limit on factions, units, buildings, religions and cultures, or at least increased to hundreds for everything, thousands for the units.
    - Being able to build several buildings at the same time in the same city.
    - Even better scripting, with more options that allows for killing specific characters (or characters with specific traits) and many other things.

    Battle map:
    - Naval battles.
    - Amphibian battles.
    - Every mounted unit can dismount.
    - Control of at least 40 units per battle.
    - Units being able to "broke up" like in Cossacks games for sieges or street battles. Perhaps not into individual units but squads of 10/20/30 or so soldiers.
    - Garrisonable buildings, like towers, gates and keeps. Towers and gates not working unless you have soldiers in them (this works in context with the option of separating units).

    The following is optional but would be great:

    Technical:
    - Employ scalable multi threading.
    - Updated graphics, but I would be content with Med2 quality anyway.
    - The engine capable of taking custom animations besides the custom models and textures. (dunno if Med2 actually takes new custom built animations made from 0, if that's so then this point is moot)

    Strategy:
    - More than one city per province.
    - Logistic and supply system for armies.
    - Manpower and more deep population system.

    EDIT:
    Being a remake this should be naturally on the game anyway, so I removed it from the list and put it here.
    - No building slots, keep the original Med 2 system. Before yelling imbalance or everyone building everything everywhere, building should be a very expensive enterprise, tied to resources, manpower and upkeep, so it would be naturally nonviable (is that the right word?) to build everything everywhere.
    Last edited by Lord Baal; November 19, 2019 at 11:24 AM.
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  15. #35
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Sight. We don´t need "unlimited building slots". We need complex building system.

    Campaign map bonuses,penalties according to location, climate for population growth. (Ports->fishes+trade, arrid location->agriculture...)

    Have population grow and fall according to natural and players/AI conduct (war razing cities) with slots being determined by city size/population.

    Add ability to unlock artificial slots for high prize. But at constant upkeep cost for city to sustain it unless city grows in size for it. (basically there should be natural max cap and if player wants he can create super dependant cities if empire can sustain the cost)

    Add complex trade/resource system and complex building system with multiple branches which are mutually exclusive and bonuses/penalties on province levels.

    Bonus point: ability to settle new towns.

    We don´t need 20 slots in each city. 10+6 for overall 28ish (major +3x minor city) slots per province is enough. Or make it even 12+8 with ability to create a few small cities for overall 52 slots (major + 5 small). Building everything everywhere is bumb and yeah, I was doing exactly that in Med2. Because I can and I have the will to powerplay. ;-) Like having mandatory building in each settlement is important why? Roads, walls...I would prefer city with three branches 1)military (including walls) 2)economy (including roads) 3)culture/generic variant with bonus for population/food etc....with ability to roads/walls in cities where they are not including in main chain. See...this is how you make choices....
    Last edited by Daruwind; November 18, 2019 at 12:38 PM.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Building everything and everywhere, which really isn't than common from my experience, is not an issue of the absence of slots, but the result of an unbalanced economy and nonexistent workforce mechanic. This could be reduced by the introduction of upkeep for maintaining infrastructure, the introduction of inflation and offer/demand mechanics and finally the clear demarcation of the map's wealth. Even in Rome I and Medieval II, the player can accumulate infinite wealth by hoarding his treasures, without any negative impact on commerce, currency value and fiscal efficiency. Since Empire Total War, the situation has actually deteriorated, because now resources infinitely add to the wealth of the province, from where taxes are extracted.

    Consequently, in Medieval II there is a strict limit of how many armies you can recruit, even if you control the entirety of Europe and have amassed millions of florins. If you exaggerate your investment on the military, you will gradually bankrupt yourself to a practically insuperable debt. On the contrary, in Empire, there is literally zero limit to how much you can increase your profits, so therefore you can always deploy an infinite amount of soldiers. Οf course, there are worse offenders, like the High Elves in the fantasy games and the Byzantines in Attila (where CA obviously didn't not take into consideration the primordial principle of credit economics: compound interest is absurdly exponential). Creative Assembly can solve the issue by implementing upkeep for buildings and restricting the potential size of the economy, but, unfortunately, enforcing artificial restrictions to the player is both easier and cheaper.

  17. #37
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    I disagree with any hard cap that is arbitrary. Why not being able to build everything in a large city somewhere else that's not your capital? Why you can't build, lets say a supply depot or a state bank because the last plot of land ever was used on a brothel?

    Ah so you wanna build everything everywhere? Enjoy being broke and unable to field any army and the crumbling buildings because the lack of upkeep.

    Medieval 2 system was almost perfect except for the fact you could only build a single thing at the time. So you had ridiculous things like a huge city paralized building a single chapel for x ammount of turns.

    The limit of buildings and everything in the game should be more organic, limited by population, resources, treasure all for construction and also upkeep, and of course city location.

    Edit: Paradox doesn't need to buy Total War. They just need to include real time tactical battles in their games as the campaing is already pausable in sp it could work kinda turn based but they could employ an advance one week/month/year easily too. CA nor Sega owns the concept of turn based strategy and real time tactics. Not even for Warhammer, they aren't the first nor will be the last company to make a strategy game about it.
    Last edited by Lord Baal; November 18, 2019 at 05:37 PM.
    PROUD TO BE A PESANT. And for the dimwitted, I know how to spell peasant. <== This blue things are links, you click them and magical things (like not ending up like a fool) happens.
    Visit my utterly wall of doom here.
    Do you wanna play SS 6.4 and take your time while at it? Play with my 12 turns per year here.
    Y también quieres jugar Stainless Steel 100% en español? Mira por aca.

  18. #38

    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    There's no reason aside from making it easier for players who have no desire to manage dozens of settlements each turn that we have the current system in the first place. Strategic choice on what to build and where could be done in all manner of ways that doesn't include arbitrary slot systems.
    ORANGE MAN BAD

  19. #39
    Gigantus's Avatar The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    The limited building slot arrangement has been irritating me to no end. Zero immersion there.



  20. #40
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: 10 Things Medieval 3 Would Need

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    There's no reason aside from making it easier for players who have no desire to manage dozens of settlements each turn that we have the current system in the first place. Strategic choice on what to build and where could be done in all manner of ways that doesn't include arbitrary slot systems.

    There are numerus M2/TW Kingdoms that prove you wrong.
    Rusichi TW was a pioneer to that ...The player has unlimited building slots -like in vanilla game- BUT he/she must chose the right building tree inorder to focus into:
    Finansial growth
    Military Stronghold
    Administration center
    There is NO NEED for limited building slots as such mods prove. All it needs is a varius number of choices that the game developers HAVE to give to player. But they have been proved unable to fit clasic TW games features such proper walls and sieges in the last historical games , how do you EXPECT them to create comlicated features like buildings tech trees? THEY ARE SIMPLY UNABLE TO DO SUCH A TASK.
    TGC mod for example has ONLY cities.
    But the player has to carefully choose if he will have a city as a trade/finansial center, a military base or a naval base , a trade port , or a combination of two of those four choices.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


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