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Thread: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

  1. #41
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    That's an interesting discovery, thanks Daruwind! You've got me wanting to try a Wrath of Sparta campaign (even though the siege of Troy was centuries before the events of Wrath of Sparta, as you said it might give us some clues).

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    It will obviously be based on the Iliad, whose narrative, despite including political entities that did exist in some time, describes events completely unconfirmed by historical and archeological evidence, while also reflecting the social situation of the "Dark Ages", which can be dated several centuries after the alleged events of the Iliad.
    Yes, I'll be interested in the balance between use of the Iliad and the historical and archaeological evidence. To be fair, apparently archaeologists used to believe that the events of the Iliad were "purely legend", before the discoveries of Heinrich Schliemann (who you mentioned) and others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Moreover, the clear similarities with the Chinese epic of the Romance make me suspect that super-powered heroes will play a crucial role in the game. The new Saga title will presumably be more successful than Throb, but less accurate. Fingers crossed for a Heinrich Schliemann mode.
    I imagine you're right - obviously, the duels feature from Three Kingdoms could be used to represent the duels of Paris and Menelaus, Hector and Ajax, Patroclus and Hector (and so on). Maybe this game will be a chance to experiment with new duel mechanics?

    I like your idea of a Heinrich Schliemann mode - it would be great if they called it after him!

    I wonder if you've seen a recent video by Republic of Play analysing what made Rome: Total War so immersive. He argues that the connections between the campaign map and battlefield, through the ability to view our cities (where we can see our buildings), generals' speeches (which refer to the location and the situation between the opposing sides) and the battlefield maps (which represent features such as roads and hills on the campaign map), were a big part of what achieved this. I think he makes good points. Hopefully the more detailed campaign map of a Saga game would make it possible to see more connections between the campaign map and the battlefields.
    Last edited by Alwyn; August 09, 2019 at 11:07 AM.
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  2. #42
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Looks like next saga might be really Troy, CA filled new trade mark recently:
    https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tm.../UK00003415988

    Courtesy of reddit:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...title_is_troy/

    Now Troy War was supposed to be around 1200 BCE? With Bronze Age collapse being 1200-900 BCE playing the role of Normans in ToB?...Another question might be, is this more historical of fantasy setting? With recent 3K focus on characters, this could be somewhat similar but looking at possible map, that would be just rehash of Wrath of Sparta..kind of.

    I'm sure they'll use 3K engine so it'll be based on the Illiad rather than pure historical setting.

  3. #43

    Default New TOTAL WAR SAGA is....

    TROY.

    Check google for source.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: New TOTAL WAR SAGA is....

    delete please :-)
    Last edited by Daruwind; August 09, 2019 at 03:46 PM.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    It is very rounded up scenario. Probably there will be no additional faction DLC(s)....it is pretty ancient so CA can get off with pretty simplistic unit roosters. No hard unique new animations. I actually don´t think it would be fantasy at all as that would require a lot of unique animations. Harpies, Medusas, Giants....stuff that is ok for big game ala Warhammer but not here (unless it is heavily borrowing assests from Warhammer of course or directly based on it as is ToB on Attila ) But that would probably require either full fantasy setting as Romance/Record mode is not working here. If CA is making fantasy stull like units, there is no way in switching them off for record mode due to low resources for such title. I simply don´t think small Saga game has enough resources to produce multiple unique units...Focus on heroes/characters? Oh yes, that is easy and mandatory. :-)

    So probably something like Oddysey´s journey is off the table.
    http://www.classics.upenn.edu/myth/p...hp?page=odymap
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    IF we look at ToB, there are 10 factions in 5 culture groups, with one end game faction - normans. Campaign starts in 878 and basically ends before 1066, that´s like span of 2 centuries. And looking at Welsh Kingdoms and Gealic ones, these were not so big players. So I can imagine Sea people invasion as end game instead of normans and map between the upper one and lower one. Easy way would be having multiple Mycenaean factions...Crete.. but what if the culture groups are more likely Mycenaean, Troy, Hittite, Egypt and Assyrian ? Could the scenario be loosely based around Troy war leading into Bronze Age Collapse / Sea people invasion / Dark Ages?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    EDIT: found nice article with lot of sources:
    https://gatesofnineveh.wordpress.com...rical-sources/
    Last edited by Daruwind; August 09, 2019 at 03:46 PM.

  6. #46

    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    A Bronze age game would be more interesting but it could very easily just be an entirely Troy focussed game with a focus on the heroes and characters mentioned, and a map focused on Greece and Western Anatolia.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: New TOTAL WAR SAGA is....

    O_O
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    Quote Originally Posted by AHumpierRogue View Post
    A Bronze age game would be more interesting but it could very easily just be an entirely Troy focussed game with a focus on the heroes and characters mentioned, and a map focused on Greece and Western Anatolia.
    It should have small parts of Greece and Asia minor IMO. We hit a few Phoenician colonies and then went for the city.

    Of course heroes played a huge role. Also, this is the one game where there shouldn't be large units. Don't trust Iliad; there's no way a bronze age civilization could muster the required manpower to send tens of thousands of soldiers in an expedition to Asia Minor.
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  9. #49
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    Here is my take on it if the rumours are true.

    I thought that the saga series were going to be about focused regional conflicts in different historical time periods that they could not cover in the main total war series and not about historical fantasy. But because of the success? of three kingdoms total war and hero/duel features they introduced, it will have affected the future developement of games CA will make. Thus we see something like total war saga: troy. It's the perfect setting with three kingdoms mechanics. Thus i doubt that we are going to see a medieval total war III in the foreseeable future.

    The trojan war is fiction. The only source for the trojan war is a novel about olympian gods fighting a proxy war in aegean with myceneans and troyans as chess pieces. I don't doubt that the myceneans went around fighting and besieging different petty kingdoms in the aegean, but the main reason for the choice of setting is because of the hero mechanic they can use and not about making a historical game set in the bronze age.

    They could make a saga game about Ramesses III and his hittite wars. That would be awesome.
    Last edited by wis; August 09, 2019 at 04:09 PM.

  10. #50

    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    It's pretty much 100% guaranteed it'll feature the Iliad in some shape or form, so you will have Agamemnon and Achilles and so on. I suspect the focus will be that map posted earlier https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ece-en.svg.png . It could extend to the Eastern Mediterranean at large but I am skeptical of it. I think the safe bet will be for playables:

    Achaean Culture:

    1 - Agamemnon (Mycenae)
    2 - Menelaos (Sparta)
    3 - Achilles (Phthia)
    4 - Odysseus (Ithaca)
    5 - Diomedes (Argos)
    These 5 are guaranteed. Nestor and Ajax should be playable, but it would load things heavily on the Achaean side.
    6 - Possibly Nestor of Pylos
    7 - Possibly Telamonian Ajax of Salamis.

    Trojan/Anatolian culture:
    8 - Hektor and Paris (Troy)
    9 - Aeneas (Dardania)
    10 - Sarpedon and Glaucus (Lycia) - I would personally cast the Lycians and Carians as Sea People (after the Lukka and Karkisha) and the non Carian/Lycian West Anatolians as Anatolian culture
    11 - Penthesilea's problem is the homeland of the Amazons by Herodotus is the Thermodon River, which is far to the east in the Pontus area. Going that far means you have to have the Hittites. Which could be plausible but would go against my expectations of the map size. However, Penthesilea is a surefire choice except for that map issue.
    12 - Asteropaois of Paeonia is an unlikely choice but he was the only man to wound Achilles in the Iliad. I think a Thracian/Phrygian/Paeonian ally would make for good sense given you could depict them as a barbaric European Bronze age or Proto-Thracian faction.

    I'm skeptical the Saga focus will feature the Egyptians and Hittites.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    One interesting point of this setting would be return of full time naval combat

  12. #52
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    The Late Bronze Age Collapse sounds horrific. Is Robert Drews (quoted on the Wikipedia page) accurate? He's a historian, so presumably this is based on evidence:

    Within a period of forty to fifty years at the end of the thirteenth and the beginning of the twelfth century almost every significant city in the eastern Mediterranean world was destroyed, many of them never to be occupied again.
    That sounds apocalyptic - I wonder if they'd represent that with mechanics from Atilla. I'm intrigued by the speculation about the causes of the collapse - was it a volcanic eruption, draught, the development of iron weapons or changes in warfare?

    alhoon made a good point about large units and Ahiga's thinking about factions sounds good. I agree with wis that Troy seems like an ideal setting for the new Three Kingdoms mechanics. I like the sound of naval combat returning. I wonder how bronze age combat, on sea and land, differed from battles in the early periods covered by Rome II campaigns Wrath of Sparta and Rise of the Republic.

    (I've also heard that there will be an easter egg in the new game, if you miss Achilles' heel and hit his knee, he'll become a guard in Whiterun. )
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  13. #53
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    The Late Bronze Age Collapse sounds horrific.
    I doubt it for I think that the Attila example has shown the CA that TW based on "collapse" is not the best idea. The players like to build and conquer from scratch. The 4th and 3rd century in the Mediteranean is perfect just because is about building your own empire.
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  14. #54
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    Bronze Age Collapse seems to be yet again combination of factors.
    The palace economy of the Aegean region and Anatolia that characterised the Late Bronze Age disintegrated, transforming into the small isolated village cultures of the Greek Dark Ages. The half-century between c. 1200 and 1150 BC saw the cultural collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms, of the Kassite dynasty of Babylonia, of the Hittite Empire in Anatolia and the Levant, and of the Egyptian Empire;[1] the destruction of Ugarit and the Amorite states in the Levant, the fragmentation of the Luwian states of western Asia Minor, and a period of chaos in Canaan.[2] The deterioration of these governments interrupted trade routes and severely reduced literacy in much of the known world.[3] In the first phase of this period, almost every city between Pylos and Gaza was violently destroyed, and many abandoned, including Hattusa, Mycenae, and Ugarit.[4] According to Robert Drews:
    Within a period of forty to fifty years at the end of the thirteenth and the beginning of the twelfth century almost every significant city in the eastern Mediterranean world was destroyed, many of them never to be occupied again.[5]
    1) probably some weather change, like Attila slow degradation of fertility, drought
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse

    2) end of trade, it was important for big nations like Egypt, Hittite, Assyria, Mycenaean. From reading it looks like the trade in late bronze age was significant part, it was important especially in case of Tin as vital component for Bronze plus probably stop for trade mean even food shortages in certain areas.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    3) Sea people invasion. No idea where they came from, probably from multiple areas around Sicily, maybe even from Dacia/Thrace, Lybia... In very short period od time they swept away most of the Empires and only Egypt survived. Greatly diminished. There is battle in Nile Delta and after this point Pharaon started to hire the "mercenaries" to boost his armies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    That all is why I like the Bronze Age Collapse, it is so easy TW endgame event. Like in ToB, invasion fleets appear on map and start razing...Just compare it with Norman invasions in the end of ToB. Totally the same. Ultimate Victory - survive.
    Last edited by Daruwind; August 10, 2019 at 03:42 AM.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    I am personally a bit skeptical about naval battles being added. As it has already been mentioned, Creative Assembly is very reluctant to reintroduce complicated features in such low-budget games. I would be surprised if the new Saga title will be based on the dated Rome II, instead of the much more beautiful Three Kingdoms, so the chances of maritime warfare are rather slim. Regarding the visual style, the primary source of inspiration will most probably be Brad Pitt's film. As for the military equipment, CA will certainly consult Osprey's illustrations and some iconic modern representations of Mycenean armour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahiga View Post
    It's pretty much 100% guaranteed it'll feature the Iliad in some shape or form, so you will have Agamemnon and Achilles and so on. I suspect the focus will be that map posted earlier https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ece-en.svg.png . It could extend to the Eastern Mediterranean at large but I am skeptical of it. I think the safe bet will be for playables
    Judging from CA's record, the initial number of playable factions will be eight, presumably equally divided between the Trojans and the Achaeans. Depending on the game's popularity, a couple of DLCs will also be released, featuring perhaps extra four warlords. From the Achaean side, Agamemnon, Menelaus and Achilles will definitely be present from the beginning. The remaining slots will probably be filled by Odysseus, Nestor and Ajax. Diomedes or even Idomeneus and Philoctetes are also potential candidates, but they do not enjoy the reputation of the rest in popular culture (CA's principal requirement), mainly because they were ignored by the 2004 movie.

    In what concerns the Trojans, I wouldn't be surprised if Hector, Priam and Paris are separated into two distinct factions. Penthesilea's inclusion is also doubtless, although she could be published a bit later as a DLC, together with a Thracian hero (Rhesus, perhaps?). Regarding the rest, Aeneas is definitely guaranteed, while the prospects of both Sarpedon (Lycian) and Memnon (Hittite) are also very bright, although not as much as either Penthesilea or Aeneas.
    EDIT: Bronze Age Crisis is a very interesting scenario, but it's too niche for CA standards, as very few are even familiar with the general background. It's similar to how the Middle East was totally neglected in Rome II and Attila, in favour of the much more known to CA's target audience western portion of the map. Moreover, the variety in cultures renders it absolutely unacceptable for Sagas, which are supposed to be focused on timeframes which do not demand too much work for new modens and units.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; August 10, 2019 at 04:20 AM. Reason: Last paragraph added/Crete.

  16. #56

    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Creative Assembly is very reluctant to reintroduce complicated features in such low-budget games.
    To open a tangent, I believe it is this very attitude that may result in a ToB-scale failure. Such a small game must introduce a niche, even being a playing ground for new mechanics in more ambitious games, or it is merely a glorified expansion campaign for whatever game it rips mechanics from, with little reason to play it very far at all.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    Question is, how big the final scale of the game should be. If they are planning DLCs or not. (Was ToB initial sales so bad they cancelled DLCs? Because CA rolled out a tons for Attila despite low sales..)

    If CA is planning no DLCs from beggining, they have to flesh out all content in one go. No placeholder factions...No additianal cultures. Bear in mind the DLCs usually cover some initial loses. With DLCs they can opt to go for bigger base game...and fill, expand things later.
    Last edited by Daruwind; August 10, 2019 at 06:02 AM.

  18. #58

    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    I highly doubt that the game will be about the Bronze Age collapse. It's just too big for a Saga game, I'd have loved to see a Total War:Bronze Age with the Battle of Kadesh and the Hittite-Egyptian war as a starting date/scenario but that is not what we are getting.

    As for DLC, I won't say they won't release any but they might not. According to Darren(not sure how trustworthy he is on this) ToB sold well for their expectations, but DLC plans they had were scrapped indicating that they did plan something at least. I'd say they will likely have some plans but I expect that the game will largely revolve around the Achaeans and Troy. If they go by Homer they will be literally the same culture but hopefully CA decides to have a bit of fun with the art style and differentiate their cultures a bit. Hopefully some of the Trojan Allies like Lycia, Thracians, Paeonians, Memnon(who according to a very brief wikipedia brought an army of Ethiopians and Indians to Troy) etc. will get some representation. I expect that they will at least be able to be recruited as units for Troy but actually being playable factions would be great. If anything I would expect some of these allies to be DLC. Penthesilea and her Amazons I personally think would be in the base game, maybe not as a faction but as a character for Troy that shows up in the late game with some Amazon units or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I am personally a bit skeptical about naval battles being added. As it has already been mentioned, Creative Assembly is very reluctant to reintroduce complicated features in such low-budget games. I would be surprised if the new Saga title will be based on the dated Rome II, instead of the much more beautiful Three Kingdoms, so the chances of maritime warfare are rather slim. Regarding the visual style, the primary source of inspiration will most probably be Brad Pitt's film. As for the military equipment, CA will certainly consult Osprey's illustrations and some iconic modern representations of Mycenean armour.

    Judging from CA's record, the initial number of playable factions will be eight, presumably equally divided between the Trojans and the Achaeans. Depending on the game's popularity, a couple of DLCs will also be released, featuring perhaps extra four warlords. From the Achaean side, Agamemnon, Menelaus and Achilles will definitely be present from the beginning. The remaining slots will probably be filled by Odysseus, Nestor and Ajax. Diomedes or even Idomeneus and Philoctetes are also potential candidates, but they do not enjoy the reputation of the rest in popular culture (CA's principal requirement), mainly because they were ignored by the 2004 movie.
    I don't see how CA's track record indicates there will only be Eight factions. Since Shogun 2, Shogun 2 had 10 factions on launch, Rome 2 had 9(8+Pontus which was free on launch), Attila had 10 factions on launch, Warhammer had 4 and WH2 8(really 2 starting places for each race), ToB had 10 and 3K had 12(11+the unlockable Dong Zhuo). This is all not counting any Pre Order DLCs I believe. I'd say a Troy game could easily have 10 starting factions. That said, for characters I expect that this game will be similar to 3K and have a lot of playable characters who don't control factions themselves, and I could even see it use the retinue system so as to include more characters as playable in battles. 3K has over 40 unique characters so I could easily see this game having around that many, maybe a bit less though. For example, rather than being his own faction Achilles might be part of Agamemnon's faction or something.

    Also, I feel like you put a bit too much stock into the idea that everything CA does needs to be something that is popular in pop culture. They literally just released a DLC set in the War of the Eight Princes, probably one of the least popular or known about periods of chinese history and not long before released Empire Divided, which covered the Crisis of the Third Century that only the biggest of Rome nerds knew all that much about. I am sure pop culture popularity matters but I really think you assume CA needs it as a requirement a bit too much.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    I don't see why they should (or even could) base factions around the most iconic and popular heroes when 3K showed that they can have hero characters without them being their own faction. Ajax the Greater and Philoctetes are big figures in the Trojan Cycle, but Ajax brought twelve ships to Troy and Philoctetes seven. They were evidently not terribly important kings from a geopolitical standpoint, just great warriors who can be swayed into other factions via diplomacy. Achilles had enough that he could possibly be justified as his own faction (and was independent enough to be able to ponder pulling out his entire contingent from the war when having a dispute with Agamemnon), but Odysseus could just be rolled up with Agamemnon or one of the other primary leaders. Idomeneus may not be famous in pop culture, but in addition to having one of the largest contingents was one of the primary Achaean commanders as well as being king of Crete which could be a unique faction if they allow for some trace Minoan influence. And he was also apparently formerly popular enough to get a fairly dramatic post-Troy story as well as an opera written by Mozart.
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  20. #60
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    Default Re: New SAGA #2 (after ToB)

    Starting factions are tricky.

    Shogun 2 has basically single culture group with each faction being just a clone. The very same is true for 3K. Only difference is color scheme and maybe symbols.Not counting units statistics. We are speaking about assets like animations, textures, models... Like even Yellow Turban Rebellion is not so different.

    R2/Attila/ToB multiple culture groups each one with a few (sub)factions (R2 - Rome/Carthage have subfactions while others factions...) For example ToB has 10 starting factions...but they are from 5 culture groups,each one composing of two factions. (sharing units, textures....)

    Warhammer(s) are different kind of beasts. Culture groups here are more likely factions, and what are usually factions in other TWs are represented as Legendary Lords / sub-faction leaders. Both games have 4 new LL at very start.

    Point is, look at which faction shares textures,animations,units.. etc. In shogun 2 basically each faction is cloned. Difference is just color scheme and symbol and maybe special unit. Warhammers are extreme where each culture group/faction is way different. We are speaking about different races, monsters, machines..but look at ToB. ToB has quite cheap unit roster. There are no crazy units, no elephants, dragons....

    I can imagine ToB style for Bronze Age Collapse but honestly if they are going to focus on heores, it make sense to be built upon 3K and basically has almost just one culture. Very similar unit roster...

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