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Thread: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

  1. #101

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    It's hard to have much sympathy for Dresden to be honest. In school we where shown pictures of Dresden and Nuremburg and shown pictures of London and Coventry. Mayer and his ilk deliberately ignore this when harping on about German victims.

    I remember a picture of a family of five, laid out outside their bombed out house with bed linen covering them, the youngest was a baby.

    Mayer may feel that the life of a dead German is worth more than that of a dead English baby, I feel that Germany set the terms of the war and we fought it accordingly.

  2. #102
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You have a better alternative?
    LITERALLY TONS!

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    Better alternative?
    Having the bomb, a huge alternative: wiping out Stalin (As Churchill suggested)

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    Your right Germany having declared total war should get the luxury of the US and UK and Russia fighting with Queensberry Rules?
    This is not about how to conduct a war, this is about the deliberate (also clearly theorized and admitted) use of mass-murderings of unarmed civilians, to terrorize the enemy. This is not war, this is state terrorism at mondial scale.

    Anyway, conon my dear, I'm not expressing any moral judgement about Americans, I was just answering to the question expressed by Mayer. If you don't like my answers, post yours!

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Mayer may feel that the life of a dead German is worth more than that of a dead English baby, I feel that Germany set the terms of the war and we fought it accordingly.
    Wasn't that the british position? Sir Arthur Harris said "I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier" which is a genocidal spin of Bismarck's words "The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian Grenadier". The difference is Bismarck meant that Austria's ambitions and ethnic tensions in the Balkans are not worth a war, whereas Arthur Harris argues german cities aren't worth saving.

    Also i never claimed that a dead german is worth more than a dead english.
    Last edited by Mayer; February 08, 2019 at 11:54 AM.
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  4. #104

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Wasn't that the british position? Sir Arthur Harris said "I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier" which is a genocidal spin of Bismarck's words "The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian". The difference is Bismarck meant that Austria's ambitions and ethnic tensions in the Balkans are not worth a war, whereas Arthur Harris argues german cities aren't worth saving.
    Harris genuinely believed he could bomb Germany into surrender, he was proven correct with Hiroshima and Nagasaki in fact. Just we didn't have the ability to wipe out a whole city on that scale.

    The fact remains that if Germany had not started the war, started bombing British civilian targets then their cities would be safe. German tactics allowed Harris to find acceptance for his strategy.

    You are whining that the British proved better at the same tactic Germany was using against the British.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Also i never claimed that a dead german is worth more than a dead english.
    Really? You condemn the bombing of Dresden but are silent about the Luftwaffe bombing London and Coventry.

    Either you genuinely care about the imorality of civilian bombing and therefore include the Luftwaffe in your condemnation or you only care about the German dead and by refusal to condemn the bombing of British cities your silence implies you are ok with it.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Why are you silent about german victims and only commemorate the allies? I can make the same accusation.
    I do not whine that Britain was better at murdering civilians from the air(nice legacy you got there), i want to commemorate the german losses of allied bombing campaign. That is all.



    And Harris was a war criminal, no excuses.
    Last edited by Mayer; February 08, 2019 at 12:14 PM.
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  7. #107

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Why are you silent about german victims and only commemorate the allies? I can make the same accusation.
    I do not whine that Britain was better at murdering civilians from the air(nice legacy you got there), i want to commemorate the german losses of allied bombing campaign. That is all.



    And Harris was a war criminal, no excuses.
    I don't commemorate either side, and I don't even condemn the Germans exactly. In theory, breaking the will of the civilian populace is a valid tactic and it worked for Germany in the low countries. It failed in the case of the UK.

    I just wish that Britain had nukes in 1940 or 1941. Had we been able to drop an atom bomb and wipe out Berlin or Nuremburg the way Nagasaki or Hiroshima had been we could of ended the war and stopped the holocaust in it's infancy.

    You, however, have not mentioned the German actions once.

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    I don't commemorate either side, and I don't even condemn the Germans exactly. In theory, breaking the will of the civilian populace is a valid tactic and it worked for Germany in the low countries. It failed in the case of the UK.

    I just wish that Britain had nukes in 1940 or 1941. Had we been able to drop an atom bomb and wipe out Berlin or Nuremburg the way Nagasaki or Hiroshima had been we could of ended the war and stopped the holocaust in it's infancy.

    You, however, have not mentioned the German actions once.
    You should not forget that the only reason for which your country was rightfully fighting against Adolf Hitler, it was Hitler's political ideology expressed by his political actions that your country considered criminal and barbarous; now, if you follow Hitler's startegy, using his own systems and chosing to do the same things, perhaps you win WW2 (with a HUGE American help), but you lose the fundamental battle, not only in this small debate but also at planetary scale, because you show that Hitler's ideology, if correctly applied and if applied with the right industrial power, is the right strategy! Results? You win the war and you lose the peace, that is, the future, in fact ..

  9. #109

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    You should not forget that the only reason for which your country was rightfully fighting against Adolf Hitler, it was Hitler's political ideology expressed by his political actions that your country considered criminal and barbarous; now, if you follow Hitler's startegy, using his own systems and chosing to do the same things, perhaps you win WW2 (with a HUGE American help), but you lose the fundamental battle, not only in this small debate but also at planetary scale, because you show that Hitler's ideology, if correctly applied and if applied with the right industrial power, is the right strategy! Results? You win the war and you lose the peace, that is, the future, in fact ..
    Had we played fair, followed all the treaties, been nice gentlemen then all of Europe would be under Nazi occupation and every Jew in Europe would be dead.

    We won the war, saved Europe and made sure the Jewish people and religion survived.

    Now, are you saying you'd prefer to see every Jew, homosexual, and anyone that fell short of Hitler's eugenic ideal dead and all of Europe enslaved to the Nazi ideal just so we could say "Well lads, at least we played fair and have the moral high ground."?

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Had we played fair, followed all the treaties, been nice gentlemen then all of Europe would be under Nazi occupation and every Jew in Europe would be dead.

    We won the war, saved Europe and made sure the Jewish people and religion survived.

    Now, are you saying you'd prefer to see every Jew, homosexual, and anyone that fell short of Hitler's eugenic ideal dead and all of Europe enslaved to the Nazi ideal just so we could say "Well lads, at least we played fair and have the moral high ground."?
    In my opinion with Russia + USA + China + British Empire figfhting togheter, in whatever way you had played the game you would have won.

    In my opinion your country bombed Germany in that way, because actually your military target was not Adolf Hitler and his regime, but actually your real and actual target was the economic, human and industrial power of Germany, whatever were its regime, the real target was the role played by Germany on world scale and the impending decline of your country's role in the world, impending decline punctually verified in the years after WW2, but in a way which took 20 or 30 years to happen, thanks to the destructions the Allies inflicted to Germany during and after WW2.

    About Jews, omosexuals and all those poor victims, I remind you that Allies never bombed the concentration camps in which the Jews were being butchered, for Allies there were more relavant military targets in Germany ..

  11. #111

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    In my opinion with Russia + USA + China + British Empire figfhting togheter, in whatever way you had played the game you would have won.

    In my opinion your country bombed Germany in that way, because actually your military target was not Adolf Hitler and his regime, but actually ypur real and actual target was the economic, human and industrial power of Germany, the role played by Germany on world scale and the impending decline of your country's role in the world, impending decline punctually verified in the years after WW2, but in a way which took 20 or 30 years to happen, thanks to the destructions the Allies inflicted to Germany during and after WW2.

    About Jews, omosexuals and all those poor victims, I remind you that Allies never bombed the concentration camps in which the Jews were being butchered, for Allies there were more relavant military targets in Germany ..
    Really? Harris was actualy very clear on his reasons for targeting cities:

    "The aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive ... should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany ... the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories."

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Really? Harris was actualy very clear on his reasons for targeting cities:

    "The aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive ... should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany ... the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories."
    Perhaps a case of .. Heterogonie der Zwecke?

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    I just wish that Britain had nukes in 1940 or 1941. Had we been able to drop an atom bomb and wipe out Berlin or Nuremburg the way Nagasaki or Hiroshima had been we could of ended the war and stopped the holocaust in it's infancy.
    A real shame that the british didn't have nukes to satiate your bloodlust, but nuclear fission was discovered by the german Otto Hahn
    And we shouldn't talk about the massive famines in British India, now shall we?
    The main reason for british anti-german agitation since the 19th century was jealousy. Made in Germany was invented by your people to discriminate german products but instead it turned into a quality label.
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  14. #114

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    A real shame that the british didn't have nukes to satiate your bloodlust, but nuclear fission was discovered by the german Otto Hahn
    And we shouldn't talk about the massive famines in British India, now shall we?
    The main reason for british anti-german agitation since the 19th century was jealousy. Made in Germany was invented by your people to discriminate german products but instead it turned into a quality label.
    Your nationalism is amusing.

    Feel free to make a post about British atrocities during our colonial empire, I'll probably be able to add many you havn't even heard of. Britain admitted our shame and because of that we still have the British Commonwealth, our former empire working together in peace.

    You have yet to acknowledge the German's atrocities against Coventry and London that led to what happened to Dresden.......

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    A real shame that the british didn't have nukes to satiate your bloodlust, but nuclear fission was discovered by the german Otto Hahn
    And we shouldn't talk about the massive famines in British India, now shall we?
    The main reason for british anti-german agitation since the 19th century was jealousy. Made in Germany was invented by your people to discriminate german products but instead it turned into a quality label.
    Shouldn't you as defender of christian german values against arabic hordes not knowing the words of your lord better?

    Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?


    We Germans are the last people on the planet, who should accuse other nations because of their past...

    Your behavior got more and more a shameful display for our nation.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; February 09, 2019 at 06:45 AM.
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  16. #116

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley_Quinn View Post
    Shouldn't you as defender of christian german values against arabic hordes not knowing the words of your lord better?

    Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?


    We Germans are the last people on the planet, who should accuse other nations because of their past...

    Your behavior got more and more a shameful display for our nation.
    I grew up in Germany, my father was RAF, stationed at Brugen. I understand Mayer represents a minority of your nation.

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    This is Germany


    Berlin alone has 50 memorials for victims of Nazism, hundreds more in the rest of the country, concentration camps are maintained as memorials. There are literally paving stones with jewish names on the street. All school children are teached of the horrors of National Socialism and Germany in WW2 (because that's more important than any other part of german history), most youth don't even know the communist GDR and the Eastern Block.

    Nazism memorial days:
    27th January - Day of remembrance of victims of National Socialism
    10th May - Day of the free Book(Nazi book burning)
    20th July - Day of military resistance against Hitler (Bundeswehr recruits are sworn in)
    1 September - Anti-War Day(Poland Attack)
    9 November -Reich progrom night
    19th December - Day of remembrance of the genocide on gypsies

    And Germany did not participate in any wars between 1945-1990, just recently it had to do Nato's bidding.




    This is America


    Memorials for the Iraq War?
    Memorials for Vietnam, Afghanistan, Somalia?
    Memorials for the massacres on native americans?
    No, just national pride without shame despite the endless wars (The US has never been at peace for more than a couple of years)


    Quote Originally Posted by Harley_Quinn View Post
    We Germans are the last people on the planet, who should accuse other nations because of their past...
    Whatever, I am not the one who defends bombing civilians and wants to nuke cities.
    95thrifleman's single argument is whataboutism: Allied war crimes were justified because Germany did... which is a fallacy.
    Last edited by Mayer; February 09, 2019 at 07:41 AM.
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  18. #118

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    This is Germany


    Berlin alone has 50 memorials for victims of Nazism, hundreds more in the rest of the country, concentration camps are maintained as memorials. There are literally paving stones with jewish names on the street. All school children are teached of the horrors of National Socialism and Germany in WW2 (because that's more important than any other part of german history), most youth don't even know the communist GDR and the Eastern Block.

    Nazism memorial days:
    27th January - Day of remembrance of victims of National Socialism
    10th May - Day of the free Book(Nazi book burning)
    20th July - Day of military resistance against Hitler (Bundeswehr recruits are sworn in)
    1 September - Anti-War Day(Poland Attack)
    9 November -Reich progrom night
    19th December - Day of remembrance of the genocide on gypsies

    And Germany did not participate in any wars between 1945-1990, just recently it had to do Nato's bidding.




    This is America


    Memorials for the Iraq War?
    Memorials for Vietnam, Afghanistan, Somalia?
    Memorials for the massacres on native americans?
    No, just national pride without shame despite the endless wars (The US has never been at peace for more than a couple of years)



    Whatever, I am not the one who defends bombing civilians and wants to nuke cities.
    95thrifleman's single argument is whataboutism: Allied war crimes were justified because Germany did... which is a fallacy.
    If you could save 70 million people by nuking a city of 4 million, wouldn't you do it?

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    If the Nazis told you these 4 millions were jews, would that still be just? Maybe you lack self-awareness, but you are actually arguing for genocide.
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  20. #120
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    In my opinion with Russia + USA + China + British Empire figfhting togheter, in whatever way you had played the game you would have won.

    In my opinion your country bombed Germany in that way, because actually your military target was not Adolf Hitler and his regime, but actually your real and actual target was the economic, human and industrial power of Germany, whatever were its regime, the real target was the role played by Germany on world scale and the impending decline of your country's role in the world, impending decline punctually verified in the years after WW2, but in a way which took 20 or 30 years to happen, thanks to the destructions the Allies inflicted to Germany during and after WW2.

    About Jews, omosexuals and all those poor victims, I remind you that Allies never bombed the concentration camps in which the Jews were being butchered, for Allies there were more relavant military targets in Germany ..
    About Jews, omosexuals and all those poor victims, I remind you that Allies never bombed the concentration camps in which the Jews were being butchered, for Allies there were more relavant military targets in Germany
    First very many of the German death camps were simply not in range of anything but a one way trip (before mid to late 1944)
    Second to what end? Really how would bombing any camp have helped anyone? The German regime held hard tight to killing undesirables right up to the time someday showed up at the door with a gun. Even when it was say clear in 1944 they were loosing a total war for keeps they were still wasting effort to ship people to death camps and no doubt would keep repairing them. Who would die in a one way raid on Auschwitz? Guards in their slit trenches or half dead prisoners? The camps were not relevant military targets. I would agree some effort could probably have been diverted late in the war but I still think it would likely have a pointless diversion against something that the German leadership valued to the point of insanity keeping it working to the end.

    Memorials for the massacres on native americans?
    There is whole national park/monument dedicated to the trail of tears. I don't think you looked very hard.
    Last edited by conon394; February 09, 2019 at 08:39 AM.
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