[SUBMOD: a Political Overhaul] PIGS Alpha_02 (DeI 1.2.5) [upd: jun.09/19]

[ivanpera]

I would guess that that behavior is caused by the bonuses/maluses provided by each level of loyalty. If you select one party memeber you can see his/her party loyalty effect. I guess the modfier to loyalty is applied once for each party, so if you have three happy parties that give -10 loyalty each, you'll get a total of -30.
But that's just a badly explained guess

This situation is also noticeable it the early stages of the game though, you'll see that parties tend to switch every turn/every few turns between "Sligtly good loyalty" and "sligtly bad loyalty" (or whatever they are called)

[Jake Armitage]

Yeah is that one (political_parties_loyalty_effect_bundles), but i've changed it, from the initial 5 (if I'm correct) possible ranges i've added 4 for having 9 in total.
Probably sometimes it read the table correctly, sometimes not, I'll revert to vanilla's 5 ranges.
But I like this part of the loyalty system and I hope with 5 ranges it will be back to normal.

Anyway that loyalty value is calculated at every turn start, it's for every general (not party) and should be always active (deployed or not)

@seleukos
So basically, those 'very good response', 'slightly bad response', etc. incidents are faction-wide and are connected with all the intrigues and not only with civil and military admin., right? Randomness is good, of course, but I still think, however, that they should trigger every time you use the intrigue as there would always be some sort of response to it. Otherwise, there is this feeling that something went wrong if there is no incident, like the script did not work this time, or sth of the like.

It depends, every intrigue has its own list of incidents, sometimes related to population/military/ruling party/others party, sometimes to another type of list.
Think it is really "political" this way, not always response will come from the same political part, randomness acts like a current background.
We can work on that, I had this kind of idea but it's not definitive.
I'm open to suggestions, I'll upload an excel file to check current incidents.

@seleukos (or anyone else testing PIGS):
may you try this patch (you need PIGS_Beta_02 too) and see if loyalty values return into a normal range?
thanks.
I'm gonna try it too right now but tbh it's the first time I'm gonna play with PIGS (values modded for testudo)
Load it before PIGS_Beta_02

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Yes, guys, as you said above, there is definitely a connection between these drastic changes to the party loyalty and the loyalty level for each character from all the parties but the ruling one.

I've noticed that when the party loyalty is on the increase every character from one of the opposition parties has 'very bad loyalty' displayed in its tooltip, which gives -4 loyalty for all political parties (factionwide) and then the next turn when the party loyalty in on the decrease the character loyalty changes to 'very good loyalty' which gives +4 loyalty for all political parties (factionwide). I suppose that was not much noticeable in the first dozen turns simply because there were only a few characters present in the game. What is also very strange about is that the character loyalty is actually the opposite to what the party loyalty is. So in the given turn, when the party loyalty is at approx. -60 the character loyalty shows in its tooltip 'very good loyalty' and not the opposite. And why actually does the 'very good loyalty' give you -4 loyalty to all political parties?

I am gonna take a look at this update tonight!

[Jake Armitage]

Yeah, it's correct, chars with positive party loyalty give negative.
I use this feature as a limitator for the "loyalty gaussian curve".
I've explained that some posts above to nikos.
Believe me, in terms of math (and controlling loyalty development), it's a good thing.

Yes, those effect depending on loyalty will trigger at the start of every turn, so sometimes they are uncorrect, mostly when there are loyalty changes.

The reason why is probably buggy is cause I've inserted some new effects into political_parties_loyalty_effect_bundles which, depending on an hardcoded script, is maybe not doable.
I've erased them in the patch.

-----------

EDIT: nope, it's not a problem about those added effects... it's just a problem about loyalty values being too high or maybe concerning the concept itself.
I'm used to have really a low number of charcters, I didn't think about loyalty being such elastic...
Dunno, there are 2 options:
1) remove the loyalty effect
2) do more than 9 ranges and use 0,x loyalty values (which is possible)

Effectively I was wrong when I planned this feature

@seleukos:
how many chars from others parties did you have when you start noticing this issue?

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

All right, Jake! I checked your pack yesterday and it did seem to fix the problem as the loyalty values returned to normal and I was noticing more of the 'average loyalty', 'slightly good loyalty', etc. in the character loyalty rather than only 'very bad' or 'very good' loyalty.

It is hard for me to tell exactly how many characters I had once I started taking note of this problem. Around 10 perhaps. Are women included as well?

So what's actually the connection between the party loyalty and the character loyalty? I believe that when the party loyalty is around 0 to +10 the character loyalty should be average, then if it goes above +10 to something like +20 the loyalty should be slightly good, etc. Is that how it works? And then once the party loyalty grows too high you receive the penalty to it, and the other way around, once it drops too low you receive the bonus so as to keep these loyalty levels always in check. Is that the underlaying concept behind this system?

[nikossaiz]

I've explained that some posts above to nikos.
Believe me, in terms of math (and controlling loyalty development), it's a good thing.

after some turns with PIGS i think that Jake is right. There Isnt really loyalty in politics and has a kind of immerging in it if you think about it. A party take something from the ruling one so since they have mutual interests or thy take a slice of the cake they are loyal. But this loyal instantly starting fading, call it greedy or whatever, anyway they are on an opposing party for a reason, they arent ruling but would like to. After 30 or so turns dont seem to notice a strange loyalty effect. I had a civil war, one i provoke, but everyhing seems quite logical.

There is a feature theat you can send an opposing party member to jail. Is it possible to have this kind of interaction via an idrigue? Then you can either make the party extreme loyal since you blackmail them with their captured member or they extreme disloyal since now they understand the harsh situation and try to start a civil war.

[Jake Armitage]

@ seleukos
if you open political_parties_loyalty_effect_bundles you'll see current values.
Adding effects actually work, but I'll have to lower those loyalty values.
This table comes from an hardcoded script getting party value (thing that is not possible to do via lua functions, we can work with global loyalty effects only, incidents excluded but that's totally another system).
Yes the concept is the one you described.
This is how I set them for beta_02 (9 ranges). Vanilla are 5, as per the patch I uploaded yesterday. Maybe I'll go to 11 using 0,X values.

- Very Bad Loyalty (<-31)
- Bad Loyalty (-30/-21)
- Slightly Bad Loyalty (-20/-11)
- Less than Average Loyalty (-10/-1)
- Average Loyalty (0/10)
- More than Average Loyalty (11/20)
- Slightly Good Loyalty Loyalty (21/35)
- Good Loyalty Loyalty (36/50)
- Very Good Loyalty (>51)

@nikossaiz
there is a jail option for incidents and dilemma but I think it comes from shogun, I don't know if it actually works for Rome.
But you can't use it with intrigues, no way to do it, it's for non scripted incident or dilemma only.

-------

Later today I'll do a definitive patch for this loyalty issue and start adding some features for next release, like

- check power values for cursus honorum (there are positive power% efects for every rank, that's not good, the more people you promote from others party, the more power for the ruling party you'll get)
- maybe I'll erase promotion incidents for others parties (you know, sometimes they just get promoted)
- fertility into wife ancillaries
- re-check loyalty values for cursus honorum (they are too high, maybe I'll do them negative, the more ranks a char from others parties have, the more disloyal he is, dunno yet)
- i've started working on a age-death incidents, it works but it's weird, I'll have to check why

[nikossaiz]

you can't use it with intrigues, no way to do it, it's for non scripted incident or dilemma only

It happens to me twice via dillimas. A suggestion, or idea. So, if an idrige leads to dillima, cant it lead to jail? all those faces should be close to random but hey, if we learn something from HBO series, a plot isnt always suppose to go well.

i've started working on a age-death incidents, it works but it's weird, I'll have to check why

this is the desease, ilness etch script that a general can die from illness or from old age?

maybe I'll erase promotion incidents for others parties (you know, sometimes they just get promoted)

promotion incidents are the only ones that show the other parties are alive. I like them to have them as an idrigue by them. Definately should be bad for your influence or lower their loyalty as they become bolder.

[Jake Armitage]

- ah you're right, there is an IMPRISON_CHARACTER payload for one of the assassination incidents (not intrigues, normal incidents coming from a dilemma). I'll have to figure how this differs from CHARACTER_UNAVAILABLE payload.
You can't link a dilemma to an intrigue, incidents only and the effects are global, so you can't give anything to a specific characters (afaik, at least, but I'm quite sure about it)

- a part of that system

- ok, probably you're right. Fact is cursus honorum effects are the same for any party, ruling or other, so I'll have to think before taking any decision.

[Tenerife_Boy]

Hey, I've been away for quite some time now and I just need to confirm if faction packs are no more needed from now on?

[Jake Armitage]

PIGS_Beta_03
IS OUT !

- Rebalanced Intrigue Incidents values, mostly for treasury payload and power %
- Rebalanced some effect values and Intrigue variables
- Hopefully rebalanced the loyalty coming from politicians (now is for their party only, no more a faction effect)
- Removed power % from Cursus Honorum (raising othe rarty ranks gave power to ruling party, didn't like this feature)
- Decreased by 1 gravitas gained from Cursus Honorum
- Slightly lowered Loyalty (notice that politicians will start with negative loyalty when at first rank of Cursus Honorum)
- Check Civil War post to download packs for easier Loyalty (maybe is a little too hard now, let me know)

Please, test it and report!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

@ T_Boy: yes, no more need for any faction pack, ivanpera found the solution

[Falco]

So I figured out which of my mods was causing the CTD, was actually one of the packs from this thread; @@_PIGS_Char_age_beta_01_verylow.

[Jake Armitage]

Oops
Forgot to erase a campaign variable table which unproperly canceled a lot of vanilla's values.
Verylow was the only pack doing this.
Reuploaded the character age packs into #4 post, thanks for noticing this, Falco .

[Falco]

Oops
Forgot to erase a campaign variable table which unproperly canceled a lot of vanilla's values.
Verylow was the only pack doing this.
Reuploaded the character age packs into #4 post, thanks for noticing this, Falco .

Thanks!

[Nordling]

@Jake, I played around 30 turns with your submod as Athens and so far so good! I had little chance of interacting with the intrigues since I need all the cash I can get for buildings / armies but it looks really engaging. Particularly, new marriage mechanic is spot-on. I still hold on to my views regarding political parties and would love to see them overhauled i.e. traits shouldn't be "red" or "green" - all should be neutral. If somebody hates barbarians then make them more loyal if i have wars with them or bad relationships. If somebody is an mercantile then make him hate me if i don't have enough trade routes (or trade resources?). If one is a pacifist then make him happy with having 1-3 wars but hate me for having 4+ etc. etc. Right now it's just random RNG - you get good parties you don't have to open political parties' loyalty screen ever again. You get bad traits? civil war on turn 50. Talking from my own experience with R2TW.

Cheers and so far a really good job!

[Jake Armitage]

Yeah I do remember your idea.
I'm not sure if it's doable though.
I've tried to change other parts of the vanilla political scripts but it didn't change anything, parts I added were empty in-game.
I didn't try with the traits yet but I'm quite sure they have something hardcoded.
I'll check sooner or later.

Thanks for the report.

[Nordling]

Oh, and another thing: I would love to see the "organise games" intrigue back. I mean, from what i know, nationwide festivals were very important in day-to-day life and politicians funding those would i) increase overall happiness of people affected by more extravagant celebration ii) increase politician's prestige. I know that the vanilla intrigue was overpowered and you could just spam it over and over again - therefore i suggest drop in tax rate during occurence of the event and negative PO after event (however the penalty should be smaller than the positive effect granted throughout event's lifetime) as people would be reluctant to go back to hard work after such over--the-top celebrations.

Cheers!

Edit: after some consideration - some traits should remain purely negative nevertheless. Some politicians were jyst nasty mothersuckers and therefore traits such as powerhungry, populist and those alike should make politicians harder to control.

[Jake Armitage]

Organise games had +10 to PO
Civil Administration has +8 to PO and then some "minor" tweaks (which are a sort of mirror to Military Administration tweaks):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Civil Administration:
rom_payload_food 2
rom_province_growth_province_effects 2
3c_banditry_events_all_your_provinces 3
rom_building_building_cost_mod -10
rom_building_culture_conversion_to_state_culture -1
rom_building_gdp_mod_all 4
rom_building_province_attribute_all -1
rom_faction_public_order_events 8
rom_building_recruitment_points -1
rom_building_research_points_mod_civil 5
rom_building_research_points_mod_military -3
rom_force_campaign_mod_recruitment_cost_all 5
rom_force_campaign_mod_replenishment_rate -2
rom_force_campaign_mod_upkeep_land 2
rom_force_unit_mod_experience_gain_rate -2

Military Administration:
rom_payload_food -1
rom_province_growth_province_effects -1
3c_banditry_events_all_your_provinces -5
rom_building_building_cost_mod 5
rom_building_culture_conversion_to_state_culture 2
rom_building_gdp_mod_all -2
rom_building_province_attribute_all 1
rom_faction_public_order_events -4
rom_building_recruitment_points 1
rom_building_research_points_mod_civil -3
rom_building_research_points_mod_military 5
rom_force_campaign_mod_recruitment_cost_all -10
rom_force_campaign_mod_replenishment_rate 4
rom_force_campaign_mod_upkeep_land -4
rom_force_unit_mod_experience_gain_rate 4

Main Difference is:
- in vanilla Send Emissary worked for food only, Organise Games worked for PO only
- now Civil Administration works for food, PO and other things (-1 to recruitment points), Military Administration works for banditry and culture and other things (+1 to recruitment points)
- they have become more complex, and they are a sort of provincial edicts you have to enact (they last 4 turns, a year)

So just use Civil Administration if you want PO bonus

[Nordling]

Organise games had +10 to PO
Civil Administration has +8 to PO and then some "minor" tweaks (which are a sort of mirror to Military Administration tweaks):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Civil Administration:
rom_payload_food 2
rom_province_growth_province_effects 2
3c_banditry_events_all_your_provinces 3
rom_building_building_cost_mod -10
rom_building_culture_conversion_to_state_culture -1
rom_building_gdp_mod_all 4
rom_building_province_attribute_all -1
rom_faction_public_order_events 8
rom_building_recruitment_points -1
rom_building_research_points_mod_civil 5
rom_building_research_points_mod_military -3
rom_force_campaign_mod_recruitment_cost_all 5
rom_force_campaign_mod_replenishment_rate -2
rom_force_campaign_mod_upkeep_land 2
rom_force_unit_mod_experience_gain_rate -2

Military Administration:
rom_payload_food -1
rom_province_growth_province_effects -1
3c_banditry_events_all_your_provinces -5
rom_building_building_cost_mod 5
rom_building_culture_conversion_to_state_culture 2
rom_building_gdp_mod_all -2
rom_building_province_attribute_all 1
rom_faction_public_order_events -4
rom_building_recruitment_points 1
rom_building_research_points_mod_civil -3
rom_building_research_points_mod_military 5
rom_force_campaign_mod_recruitment_cost_all -10
rom_force_campaign_mod_replenishment_rate 4
rom_force_campaign_mod_upkeep_land -4
rom_force_unit_mod_experience_gain_rate 4

Main Difference is:
- in vanilla Send Emissary worked for food only, Organise Games worked for PO only
- now Civil Administration works for food, PO and other things (-1 to recruitment points), Military Administration works for banditry and culture and other things (+1 to recruitment points)
- they have become more complex, and they are a sort of provincial edicts you have to enact (they last 4 turns, a year)

So just use Civil Administration if you want PO bonus

Ok, cool! Thx for the reply!

[Jake Armitage]

Yeah, you can imagine Civil Administration is when the administrator is working for the people, organizing games, giving food, having a little more gdp, but with some penalties for controlling people
Military Administration is a sort of "curfew"

As always, I'm open to suggestions.