[SUBMOD: a Political Overhaul] PIGS Alpha_02 (DeI 1.2.5) [upd: jun.09/19]

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Yes, guys, as you said above, there is definitely a connection between these drastic changes to the party loyalty and the loyalty level for each character from all the parties but the ruling one.

I've noticed that when the party loyalty is on the increase every character from one of the opposition parties has 'very bad loyalty' displayed in its tooltip, which gives -4 loyalty for all political parties (factionwide) and then the next turn when the party loyalty in on the decrease the character loyalty changes to 'very good loyalty' which gives +4 loyalty for all political parties (factionwide). I suppose that was not much noticeable in the first dozen turns simply because there were only a few characters present in the game. What is also very strange about is that the character loyalty is actually the opposite to what the party loyalty is. So in the given turn, when the party loyalty is at approx. -60 the character loyalty shows in its tooltip 'very good loyalty' and not the opposite. And why actually does the 'very good loyalty' give you -4 loyalty to all political parties?

I am gonna take a look at this update tonight!

[Jake Armitage]

Yeah, it's correct, chars with positive party loyalty give negative.
I use this feature as a limitator for the "loyalty gaussian curve".
I've explained that some posts above to nikos.
Believe me, in terms of math (and controlling loyalty development), it's a good thing.

Yes, those effect depending on loyalty will trigger at the start of every turn, so sometimes they are uncorrect, mostly when there are loyalty changes.

The reason why is probably buggy is cause I've inserted some new effects into political_parties_loyalty_effect_bundles which, depending on an hardcoded script, is maybe not doable.
I've erased them in the patch.

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EDIT: nope, it's not a problem about those added effects... it's just a problem about loyalty values being too high or maybe concerning the concept itself.
I'm used to have really a low number of charcters, I didn't think about loyalty being such elastic...
Dunno, there are 2 options:
1) remove the loyalty effect
2) do more than 9 ranges and use 0,x loyalty values (which is possible)

Effectively I was wrong when I planned this feature

@seleukos:
how many chars from others parties did you have when you start noticing this issue?

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

All right, Jake! I checked your pack yesterday and it did seem to fix the problem as the loyalty values returned to normal and I was noticing more of the 'average loyalty', 'slightly good loyalty', etc. in the character loyalty rather than only 'very bad' or 'very good' loyalty.

It is hard for me to tell exactly how many characters I had once I started taking note of this problem. Around 10 perhaps. Are women included as well?

So what's actually the connection between the party loyalty and the character loyalty? I believe that when the party loyalty is around 0 to +10 the character loyalty should be average, then if it goes above +10 to something like +20 the loyalty should be slightly good, etc. Is that how it works? And then once the party loyalty grows too high you receive the penalty to it, and the other way around, once it drops too low you receive the bonus so as to keep these loyalty levels always in check. Is that the underlaying concept behind this system?

[nikossaiz]

I've explained that some posts above to nikos.
Believe me, in terms of math (and controlling loyalty development), it's a good thing.

after some turns with PIGS i think that Jake is right. There Isnt really loyalty in politics and has a kind of immerging in it if you think about it. A party take something from the ruling one so since they have mutual interests or thy take a slice of the cake they are loyal. But this loyal instantly starting fading, call it greedy or whatever, anyway they are on an opposing party for a reason, they arent ruling but would like to. After 30 or so turns dont seem to notice a strange loyalty effect. I had a civil war, one i provoke, but everyhing seems quite logical.

There is a feature theat you can send an opposing party member to jail. Is it possible to have this kind of interaction via an idrigue? Then you can either make the party extreme loyal since you blackmail them with their captured member or they extreme disloyal since now they understand the harsh situation and try to start a civil war.

[Jake Armitage]

@ seleukos
if you open political_parties_loyalty_effect_bundles you'll see current values.
Adding effects actually work, but I'll have to lower those loyalty values.
This table comes from an hardcoded script getting party value (thing that is not possible to do via lua functions, we can work with global loyalty effects only, incidents excluded but that's totally another system).
Yes the concept is the one you described.
This is how I set them for beta_02 (9 ranges). Vanilla are 5, as per the patch I uploaded yesterday. Maybe I'll go to 11 using 0,X values.

- Very Bad Loyalty (<-31)
- Bad Loyalty (-30/-21)
- Slightly Bad Loyalty (-20/-11)
- Less than Average Loyalty (-10/-1)
- Average Loyalty (0/10)
- More than Average Loyalty (11/20)
- Slightly Good Loyalty Loyalty (21/35)
- Good Loyalty Loyalty (36/50)
- Very Good Loyalty (>51)

@nikossaiz
there is a jail option for incidents and dilemma but I think it comes from shogun, I don't know if it actually works for Rome.
But you can't use it with intrigues, no way to do it, it's for non scripted incident or dilemma only.

-------

Later today I'll do a definitive patch for this loyalty issue and start adding some features for next release, like

- check power values for cursus honorum (there are positive power% efects for every rank, that's not good, the more people you promote from others party, the more power for the ruling party you'll get)
- maybe I'll erase promotion incidents for others parties (you know, sometimes they just get promoted)
- fertility into wife ancillaries
- re-check loyalty values for cursus honorum (they are too high, maybe I'll do them negative, the more ranks a char from others parties have, the more disloyal he is, dunno yet)
- i've started working on a age-death incidents, it works but it's weird, I'll have to check why

[nikossaiz]

you can't use it with intrigues, no way to do it, it's for non scripted incident or dilemma only

It happens to me twice via dillimas. A suggestion, or idea. So, if an idrige leads to dillima, cant it lead to jail? all those faces should be close to random but hey, if we learn something from HBO series, a plot isnt always suppose to go well.

i've started working on a age-death incidents, it works but it's weird, I'll have to check why

this is the desease, ilness etch script that a general can die from illness or from old age?

maybe I'll erase promotion incidents for others parties (you know, sometimes they just get promoted)

promotion incidents are the only ones that show the other parties are alive. I like them to have them as an idrigue by them. Definately should be bad for your influence or lower their loyalty as they become bolder.

[Jake Armitage]

- ah you're right, there is an IMPRISON_CHARACTER payload for one of the assassination incidents (not intrigues, normal incidents coming from a dilemma). I'll have to figure how this differs from CHARACTER_UNAVAILABLE payload.
You can't link a dilemma to an intrigue, incidents only and the effects are global, so you can't give anything to a specific characters (afaik, at least, but I'm quite sure about it)

- a part of that system

- ok, probably you're right. Fact is cursus honorum effects are the same for any party, ruling or other, so I'll have to think before taking any decision.

[Tenerife_Boy]

Hey, I've been away for quite some time now and I just need to confirm if faction packs are no more needed from now on?

[Jake Armitage]

PIGS_Beta_03
IS OUT !

- Rebalanced Intrigue Incidents values, mostly for treasury payload and power %
- Rebalanced some effect values and Intrigue variables
- Hopefully rebalanced the loyalty coming from politicians (now is for their party only, no more a faction effect)
- Removed power % from Cursus Honorum (raising othe rarty ranks gave power to ruling party, didn't like this feature)
- Decreased by 1 gravitas gained from Cursus Honorum
- Slightly lowered Loyalty (notice that politicians will start with negative loyalty when at first rank of Cursus Honorum)
- Check Civil War post to download packs for easier Loyalty (maybe is a little too hard now, let me know)

Please, test it and report!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

@ T_Boy: yes, no more need for any faction pack, ivanpera found the solution

[Falco]

So I figured out which of my mods was causing the CTD, was actually one of the packs from this thread; @@_PIGS_Char_age_beta_01_verylow.

[Jake Armitage]

Oops
Forgot to erase a campaign variable table which unproperly canceled a lot of vanilla's values.
Verylow was the only pack doing this.
Reuploaded the character age packs into #4 post, thanks for noticing this, Falco .

[Falco]

Oops
Forgot to erase a campaign variable table which unproperly canceled a lot of vanilla's values.
Verylow was the only pack doing this.
Reuploaded the character age packs into #4 post, thanks for noticing this, Falco .

Thanks!

[Nordling]

@Jake, I played around 30 turns with your submod as Athens and so far so good! I had little chance of interacting with the intrigues since I need all the cash I can get for buildings / armies but it looks really engaging. Particularly, new marriage mechanic is spot-on. I still hold on to my views regarding political parties and would love to see them overhauled i.e. traits shouldn't be "red" or "green" - all should be neutral. If somebody hates barbarians then make them more loyal if i have wars with them or bad relationships. If somebody is an mercantile then make him hate me if i don't have enough trade routes (or trade resources?). If one is a pacifist then make him happy with having 1-3 wars but hate me for having 4+ etc. etc. Right now it's just random RNG - you get good parties you don't have to open political parties' loyalty screen ever again. You get bad traits? civil war on turn 50. Talking from my own experience with R2TW.

Cheers and so far a really good job!

[Jake Armitage]

Yeah I do remember your idea.
I'm not sure if it's doable though.
I've tried to change other parts of the vanilla political scripts but it didn't change anything, parts I added were empty in-game.
I didn't try with the traits yet but I'm quite sure they have something hardcoded.
I'll check sooner or later.

Thanks for the report.

[Nordling]

Oh, and another thing: I would love to see the "organise games" intrigue back. I mean, from what i know, nationwide festivals were very important in day-to-day life and politicians funding those would i) increase overall happiness of people affected by more extravagant celebration ii) increase politician's prestige. I know that the vanilla intrigue was overpowered and you could just spam it over and over again - therefore i suggest drop in tax rate during occurence of the event and negative PO after event (however the penalty should be smaller than the positive effect granted throughout event's lifetime) as people would be reluctant to go back to hard work after such over--the-top celebrations.

Cheers!

Edit: after some consideration - some traits should remain purely negative nevertheless. Some politicians were jyst nasty mothersuckers and therefore traits such as powerhungry, populist and those alike should make politicians harder to control.

[Jake Armitage]

Organise games had +10 to PO
Civil Administration has +8 to PO and then some "minor" tweaks (which are a sort of mirror to Military Administration tweaks):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Civil Administration:
rom_payload_food 2
rom_province_growth_province_effects 2
3c_banditry_events_all_your_provinces 3
rom_building_building_cost_mod -10
rom_building_culture_conversion_to_state_culture -1
rom_building_gdp_mod_all 4
rom_building_province_attribute_all -1
rom_faction_public_order_events 8
rom_building_recruitment_points -1
rom_building_research_points_mod_civil 5
rom_building_research_points_mod_military -3
rom_force_campaign_mod_recruitment_cost_all 5
rom_force_campaign_mod_replenishment_rate -2
rom_force_campaign_mod_upkeep_land 2
rom_force_unit_mod_experience_gain_rate -2

Military Administration:
rom_payload_food -1
rom_province_growth_province_effects -1
3c_banditry_events_all_your_provinces -5
rom_building_building_cost_mod 5
rom_building_culture_conversion_to_state_culture 2
rom_building_gdp_mod_all -2
rom_building_province_attribute_all 1
rom_faction_public_order_events -4
rom_building_recruitment_points 1
rom_building_research_points_mod_civil -3
rom_building_research_points_mod_military 5
rom_force_campaign_mod_recruitment_cost_all -10
rom_force_campaign_mod_replenishment_rate 4
rom_force_campaign_mod_upkeep_land -4
rom_force_unit_mod_experience_gain_rate 4

Main Difference is:
- in vanilla Send Emissary worked for food only, Organise Games worked for PO only
- now Civil Administration works for food, PO and other things (-1 to recruitment points), Military Administration works for banditry and culture and other things (+1 to recruitment points)
- they have become more complex, and they are a sort of provincial edicts you have to enact (they last 4 turns, a year)

So just use Civil Administration if you want PO bonus

[Nordling]

Organise games had +10 to PO
Civil Administration has +8 to PO and then some "minor" tweaks (which are a sort of mirror to Military Administration tweaks):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Civil Administration:
rom_payload_food 2
rom_province_growth_province_effects 2
3c_banditry_events_all_your_provinces 3
rom_building_building_cost_mod -10
rom_building_culture_conversion_to_state_culture -1
rom_building_gdp_mod_all 4
rom_building_province_attribute_all -1
rom_faction_public_order_events 8
rom_building_recruitment_points -1
rom_building_research_points_mod_civil 5
rom_building_research_points_mod_military -3
rom_force_campaign_mod_recruitment_cost_all 5
rom_force_campaign_mod_replenishment_rate -2
rom_force_campaign_mod_upkeep_land 2
rom_force_unit_mod_experience_gain_rate -2

Military Administration:
rom_payload_food -1
rom_province_growth_province_effects -1
3c_banditry_events_all_your_provinces -5
rom_building_building_cost_mod 5
rom_building_culture_conversion_to_state_culture 2
rom_building_gdp_mod_all -2
rom_building_province_attribute_all 1
rom_faction_public_order_events -4
rom_building_recruitment_points 1
rom_building_research_points_mod_civil -3
rom_building_research_points_mod_military 5
rom_force_campaign_mod_recruitment_cost_all -10
rom_force_campaign_mod_replenishment_rate 4
rom_force_campaign_mod_upkeep_land -4
rom_force_unit_mod_experience_gain_rate 4

Main Difference is:
- in vanilla Send Emissary worked for food only, Organise Games worked for PO only
- now Civil Administration works for food, PO and other things (-1 to recruitment points), Military Administration works for banditry and culture and other things (+1 to recruitment points)
- they have become more complex, and they are a sort of provincial edicts you have to enact (they last 4 turns, a year)

So just use Civil Administration if you want PO bonus

Ok, cool! Thx for the reply!

[Jake Armitage]

Yeah, you can imagine Civil Administration is when the administrator is working for the people, organizing games, giving food, having a little more gdp, but with some penalties for controlling people
Military Administration is a sort of "curfew"

As always, I'm open to suggestions.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

I personally like this division between civil and military administration instead of having simply organize games and food distribution intrigues.

If it was entirely up to me I would, however, streamline a bit the effects associated with each of these intrigues. I feel like at this stage there are a few too many effects there, some of which, like for example the penalty to the state cultural conversion, are counterintuitive to what the player might expect.

It could, for example, be something of this kind;

Civil Aministration;

Bonus to PO
Bonus to Food
Bonus to the Civil Research
Bonus to the Construction Costs

Penalty to the Recruitment Costs
Penalty to the Unit Replenishment
Penalty to Banditry
Penalty to the Military Research

With Military Administration being more or less the reverse of these effects, making sure at the same time that for each intrigue the positive effects always outweigh the negative effects as the player still needs to pay a relatively substanstial sum of money for them in the first place.

Other than that, I can also reiterate what Nordling said above regarding the marriage intirgue. I very much like the way it is now with the bonus to PO for a number of turns - such occasions would always be a much-celebrated event not only for the bride and the groom and their families, but for the whole community - and the character in question being put of out action for one turn.

Regarding these marriage intrigues, I was wondering if it would be possible to have a special event associated with the marriage intrigue for the faction leader or any member of the ruling party that would give some extraordinary faction-wide bonuses for a couple of turns to reflect the significance of such marriage of a king, his son, or his daugheter?

With regard to the current state of loyalty, it seems pretty balanced at this moment, so well-done, Jake! I'm still at the very early stage of the campaign, around 30 turns in, and the loyalty for each party shifts within the region of +10/-10 most of the time. I suppose this will be more difficult to handle at the higher imperium levels, but that's also the point, after all.

The only thing I would suggest is that you may want to consider to make these effects of negative loyalty from the higher loyalty levels and positive loyalty from the lower loyalty levels, hidden effects. I understand the concept behind this and, like you said above, the mathematical approach totally makes sense here, but I just simply think that it will be more sensible to hide these effects so that the player does not see them as many will certainly wonder why on earth I get the negative loyalty from the positive loyalty levels and vice versa, and they will most likely keep on asking you that question over and over again.

[Jake Armitage]

Administration: You know, when I mod, I mod for Testudo, and I have the pov to do a lot of slight tweaks for any feature which then will be combined with all others testudo's features.
I get that probably for a vanilla version would be better to have less effects, so people could easily manage features.
I wouldn't remove the +1/-1 to recruiment points sincerely, you could use Military Administration when you know you're gonna be attacked and so you have some slight bonus for the army and the possibility to recruit 1 unit more, while using Civil Administration in this kind of situation would be risky, so you'll have to choose (a strategic game is a matter of choices, at the end)
Also, I wanted to limit the possibility to use both administrations in the same time for the same province, that's why I mirrored the effects. Otherwise you could use them both (which is pretty unrealistic) and have bonuses only for some coin cost. Might be overpowered.

EDIT: sorry, I see now most of the things I've written are already into your post, thought green and red were for different administrations.
I was answering a phone call when I read it.

Marriage: yeah, it's a small feature but it adds some color, Divorce is the same, but opposite. I did this 'cause there is the possibilty to add an army effect through them (like for appoint officer/commander and family clientelism, others intrigues don't allow that).
About the script, I'm not sure 100%, don't think so though. I tried to use a "normal script" structure (like the one you know for the autoresolve script) but political events seemed not to work as callbacks. It seems they work for "event script" structure only, but I'll return onto this, sooner or later.

Loyalty: Good! Yeah, Loyalty will tend to stay between +20 and -20 (except some features like change gov, civil war won and party leader/common general death).
That's also why I put those 0,X values to loyalty for ranges close to 0. Dunno, maybe I could remove them for more than average and less than average.

These are the actual ranges, as you can notice, near 0 they change with 5 points only:

- Absymal Loyalty (< -40): +2 to Loy from every Other Party character (deployed or not)
- Very Bad Loyalty (-21/-40): +1,5 to Loy from every Other Party character (deployed or not)
- Bad Loyalty (-11/-20): +1 to Loy from every Other Party character (deployed or not)
- Slightly Bad Loyalty (-6/-10): +0,5 to Loy from every Other Party character (deployed or not)
- Less than Average Loyalty (0/-5): +0,25 to Loy from every Other Party character (deployed or not)
- Average Loyalty (0/5): +0 to Loy
- More than Average Loyalty (6/10): -0,25 to Loy from every Other Party character (deployed or not)
- Slightly Good Loyalty Loyalty (11/20): -0,5 to Loy from every Other Party character (deployed or not)
- Good Loyalty Loyalty (21/30): -1 to Loy from every Other Party character (deployed or not)
- Very Good Loyalty (31/50): -1,5 to Loy from every Other Party character (deployed or not)
- Excellent Loyalty (>51): -2 to Loy from every Other Party character (deployed or not)

Imperium levels penalties have been reduced, there is a -5 pace for every level (it has a smoother and more controllable curve), but I raised the campaign variable % to trigger civil wars at higher imp lvl non depending by loyalty