Cavalry Speed

**Camcolit** · January 13, 2019, 02:37 PM

Just going through the unit file I notice that some heavy cavalry is MUCH slower than foot archers and skirmishers. Not only that, they are slower than hoplites!

Cataphract 0.777 (value shared for a lot of heavy cav)

Akontistai 1.2

Mercenary Hoplite 0.87

Am I reading these values correctly? If so, isn't this getting very silly? Cavalry is mobile, that includes heavy cavalry. They tire easier, but no armored horseman is slower than the quickest human, much less a fat Greek clad in bronze.

**QuintusSertorius** · January 13, 2019, 03:38 PM

Firstly, the listed speed is a multiplier, the base value for cavalry is higher than that of infantry. Comparing the two is meaningless.

Secondly, cataphracts charged at the trot, they did not gallop around the place. You don't chase routing skirmishers with heavy cavalry, that's what light cavalry is for.

As always, if you don't like these values, feel free to change them in your installation, but we didn't just make them up.

**Camcolit** · January 13, 2019, 05:26 PM

Right, that's why I asked if I was reading the values correctly, which I wasn't.

Still, in-game cataphracts and by extension heavy cavalry generally are extremely slow and can barely outrun infantry.

Yes they would not gallop around the place but they could gallop when advantageous - such as repositioning to attack a flank or rear or exposed target, which is the whole point of cavalry - mobile shock troops. They would not just move at max 'trot' speed around the battlefield at all times. Also a horses trot speed is still quite a lot faster than any sustainable on-foot pace.

I think saying change them in your installation is a bit of a cop out. I'm just giving my opinion on realism which is a goal of the mod. Horses are fast, people are slow.

**myarta** · January 14, 2019, 01:07 AM

Yes, but what is your opinion backed up by? It seems to just be your theory and it comes off as critical of the team as if they haven't put a lot of thought into unit stats. Heavy cavalry is weighed down by a lot of gear, and if you've been busy using them all battle, they will be exhausted, which I believe slows them down even further.

**Sar1n** · January 14, 2019, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Camcolit

Horses are fast, people are slow.

I'd advise you to check some numbers. Reaching 15 km/h at sustained run is not that uncommon for a human, while horses walk and trot at ~7-12 km/h. At gallop, they beat human, of course...

**Camcolit** · January 14, 2019, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by myarta

Yes, but what is your opinion backed up by? It seems to just be your theory and it comes off as critical of the team as if they haven't put a lot of thought into unit stats. Heavy cavalry is weighed down by a lot of gear, and if you've been busy using them all battle, they will be exhausted, which I believe slows them down even further.

My opinion that horses are faster than people? I guess it's just a wild assumption...

Yes, heavy cavalry tire easily and then slow down, so they cannot gallop indefinitely around a battlefield, but when fresh they can move a lot faster than any infantry. Cavalry can quickly reposition during battle, that is a lot of what makes them powerful. No amount of battle gear which was actually used will make a horseman move at comparable speed to infantry. Also, infantry tend to have gear too. We are not comparing a burdened horse to an unburdened man.

Heavy cavalry should tire quicker than light infantry, yes.

**QuintusSertorius** · January 14, 2019, 10:36 AM

Actually, by complaining the heaviest cavalry in the game are slower than the least-equipped skirmisher, you are comparing a burdened horse to an unburdened man.

**Camcolit** · January 14, 2019, 11:18 AM

Skirmishers carry javelins / bags. Archers carry bows / quivers / arrows. Both carry sidearms.

**JC_von_Preussen** · January 14, 2019, 12:35 PM

Concerning fatigue, modders also have to take into account that the AI does not know about resting its units. So, on paper, making heavy cav tire quicker looks good, but in practice, you're giving the player a further edge on the CPU, and we would not want that.

However, when facing other players, having heavier cavalries tire quicker is a very nice thing. In Napoleonic Total War 3 (a MP mod for NTW mostly) this actually exists and it rewards good planning and tactics, and, in the same time, punishes those who think heavy cavalry can be sent out without thinking thrice.

**Sar1n** · January 14, 2019, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Camcolit

Skirmishers carry javelins / bags. Archers carry bows / quivers / arrows. Both carry sidearms.

Common skirmisher kit-a knife, small shield, few javelins, bow and arrows or sling and bag of bullets weighs 3-5 kg at max. Not enough to slow one down.

**Camcolit** · January 14, 2019, 08:34 PM

The awkwardness of carrying that gear would most certainly slow you down compared to running unburdened.

**Camcolit** · January 14, 2019, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by JC_von_Preussen

Concerning fatigue, modders also have to take into account that the AI does not know about resting its units. So, on paper, making heavy cav tire quicker looks good, but in practice, you're giving the player a further edge on the CPU, and we would not want that.

True, however I would say that giving units unrealistic attributes because it helps the AI is not a wise philosophy, especially for a historical accuracy focused mod. Better to assign accurate values and then worry about how to help the AI use them.

Sorry for double-post, I don't see an edit function.