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Thread: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

  1. #1
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Hi!
    I’m planning on adding Permanent Forts to EBII 2.35.
    However, they won’t be like old EBII, this forts will have a restrict number and will involve other changes to the game.
    Firstly, this sub mod will add around 25 permanent forts on the campaign map, in carefully chosen sites to maximize their effectiveness without hindering gameplay.
    Secondly, although I will place the PF in regions where there would already be a settlement there, I won’t even try to be fair and give more populated regions more forts. This means that I will place the forts in regions with settlements but also in strategic places and a lot of them will be situated far from other cities (there will be exceptions).
    This will also be a test to see how does the AI deals with this rather small amount of Forts in the campaign. One of the know problems is that the AI does not know how to deal with them and will often prefer to defend them and leave the cities alone. My solution to this will be adding scripted garrisons to the places affected (I will have to see what will be the solution after the regions are conquered). The scripted garrisons will be around 5/6 levy units (open to discussion).
    Does this means that there will be more 25 cities with scripted garrisons? It will depend. In some cases, the forts will be placed in regions where the cities already have scripted garrisons and, consequently, there will be no need to create a new script for that region (I’m still changing the current 10 turn waiting time for the garrison script to trigger again after a siege to 5 turns waiting time).

    I accept suggestions on this and would like to know more info from the EBII team on PSF (both strat and battle map models). Since I only started playing EBII after the PSF were deleted, I don’t know how the models look and would appreciate some images and knowhow from the “older” players!
    For the ones who don’t know, Permanent Stone Forts can have different models, and this can be set in the descr_strat at the start of the game, I’m not sure how many different designs, but at least 22 are possible. This means we can represent a Greek polis, Pritanoi settlements, Iberian oppidums, roman small towns/forts, nomad camps, Celtic hill forts, eastern fort/city, nomad camps and much more.

    My current ideas for the placement of this PF (they will not be named on the campaign map):
    1 – Akragas/Agrigentum in Sicily
    2 – Kerkouane (Tunisia)
    3 – Volubilis (Mauretania) or another settlement to the south
    4 – Ilipa (Turdetania, Iberia) or/and 5 – Conistorgis (Conii Oppidum, Iberia)
    6 – Olisippo (current portuguese capital Lisbon, Iberia)
    7 – Asturga (Astures, Iberia)
    8 – Genua/Segesta – Italy
    9 – A settlement in Sardinia to represent the locals control of part of the region
    10 – Kroton – South Italy
    11 – Elis or Olympia (Greece, west of Sparta)
    12 – Chalkis (Euboia, island near Athens, controlled by makedonia)
    13 – Mytilene (Lesbos Island)
    14 – Tyre (Phoenicia, possibly creating a small island and put the settlement there)
    15 – Paraitonion (Marmorica, east of Kyrene, Egyp)
    16 – Sohar (Mashat, after the nomad camp of Guerra)

    The localization of the other settlements is open to discussion but at least 1 should be in Gallia, 1 in Britania, 1 in Germania, 1 in Anatolia and the other 5 could be placed around the nomad regions.

    Merchants as governors –Possible Idea/Feature
    I also have another idea (not mine tough) for taking more advantage of the Permanent Forts, but I think it won’t be possible because I do not see how the AI will understand this feature and there’s also the fact that EBII already uses all the resources…
    The idea would be:
    Using merchants as governors for PSF - If you stuck all resources under towns, you could use merchants like governors that you dispatch to govern the countryside. They could be renamed to minor governors or just governors and would be sent to the Fort that would be placed in a resource, generating income for you.
    Even if we don’t do this, we still can make the control of all PSFs within one’s own province worthwhile through the devastation mechanics (and it is already implemented). The forts do not generate income but they provide free upkeep for your units (I’m thinking about putting the number at 3/4 units) and in case that a fort is occupied by an enemy it incurs quite substantial loss of income through devastation, nicely representing the loss of significant settlement/area the PSF is supposed to represent.

  2. #2
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    One thing to beware; scripting a garrison won't stop the AI from filling them up with it's own units, to the exclusion of whatever settlement is nearby.

  3. #3
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    One thing to beware; scripting a garrison won't stop the AI from filling them up with it's own units, to the exclusion of whatever settlement is nearby.
    I will take that in consideration and not put more than 1 Fort in a region. Since they will be fewer and the cities will have a scripted garrison, I'm hoping that it will still be okay to play while adding to the introduction of new types of settlements and possibilities in the campaign.

    Quintus can you tell me how many Fort models does the EBII team have? Are they divided by culture?

  4. #4
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Some images of possible forts that can be added to the game:
    They come from vanilla kingdoms, DBM and Gigantus. Some of them will need changes because they look medieval/have medieval buildings.
    While I don't find a solution for the medieval looking Forts, I'm thinking about adding just the possibility of building non permanent forts on the campaign map.

    See the link: https://imgur.com/a/hDqPjNr

  5. #5

    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    While I don't find a solution for the medieval looking Forts, I'm thinking about adding just the possibility of building non permanent forts on the campaign map.
    enabling temporary forts might result in what QS aptly called 'wandering wonders'. i tried, and that was the outcome, unfortunately. if you'd manage to avoid that it'd be great.

    love the idea overall and i think it would really add to the campaign as provinces tend to feel 'empty' compared to what they looked like historically.
    My solution to this will be adding scripted garrisons to the places affected (I will have to see what will be the solution after the regions are conquered). The scripted garrisons will be around 5/6 levy units (open to discussion).
    this is actually a good idea, but you'd probably want to add more than 5-6 levies and yes, cool down period will need to be reduced from the current formula to have an impact.

    Using merchants as governors for PSF - If you stuck all resources under towns, you could use merchants like governors that you dispatch to govern the countryside.
    love the idea. you may want to place PSFs on resources to help and so that no 'stealing' between 'merchants/governors' takes place?

  6. #6
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    enabling temporary forts might result in what QS aptly called 'wandering wonders'. i tried, and that was the outcome, unfortunately. if you'd manage to avoid that it'd be great.

    love the idea overall and i think it would really add to the campaign as provinces tend to feel 'empty' compared to what they looked like historically.
    this is actually a good idea, but you'd probably want to add more than 5-6 levies and yes, cool down period will need to be reduced from the current formula to have an impact.

    love the idea. you may want to place PSFs on resources to help and so that no 'stealing' between 'merchants/governors' takes place?
    The quick solution for the wandering wonders would be to remove them from the forts that they are attached. They could stay only as images in the map or just disappear. Eventually, they could come back to the campaign map in custom settlements since most of the wonders shoud be inside the cities (Pharos at Alexandria, Colossos of Rhodes, Gardens of Babylonia, etc). This a solution only for temporary forts, I think that with PSF we don't have that problem. For me, even just removing them is no problem at all because I generally play factions on the west side of the map and rarely see those wonders.

    I agree, the provinces tend to feel empty and many lose strategical importance because of that. Adding some forts (around 20/25) would make the map more "alive", while adding new elements to the game and since there wouldn't be that much forts, the AI behaviour should stay almost the same.

    About the garrisons, maybe I will add 8 units, with 2/3 strong ones (still not elite) and the rest levies. The cool down period for now I'm reducing it to 7 or 6.

    The idea of the merchants as governors is exactly that. Placing the PSF on resources so that no stealing can take place. But I'm concerned about how the AI reaction.

    Still, I need help on this, that's why I created this thread, so if you or anyone else want to help me, send me a message

  7. #7

    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    IIRC the Dominion of the Sword team claimed that if you put a scripted general in the PFs the AI will be far less interested in garrisoning them and will defend cities better. Sounds quite interesting IMO (if it works!).

  8. #8
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Aper View Post
    IIRC the Dominion of the Sword team claimed that if you put a scripted general in the PFs the AI will be far less interested in garrisoning them and will defend cities better. Sounds quite interesting IMO (if it works!).
    It might be a good idea in some cases. Still, with a scripted garrison in the cities that have forts there won't be that much worries at least in the beggining.

    @Sarkiss or @Aper can you help me for now on just putting temporary forts on the campaign? We will have to remove the wonders and I'm thinking about doing two kinds of script for that, one in which the cost to build a fort is free and other where it costs 1500 or 2500. This is to test what the AI ends up doing with the ability to build temporary forts.

    And can someone take prints of the current EBII forts? I think you can see them in custom battles. I need to see if they are the same for each culture and how they look because if some don't look good we could very well have the roman/latin fort from DBM in EBII Rome Faction and other types.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    The quick solution for the wandering wonders would be to remove them from the forts that they are attached. They could stay only as images in the map or just disappear. Eventually, they could come back to the campaign map in custom settlements since most of the wonders shoud be inside the cities (Pharos at Alexandria, Colossos of Rhodes, Gardens of Babylonia, etc). This a solution only for temporary forts, I think that with PSF we don't have that problem. For me, even just removing them is no problem at all because I generally play factions on the west side of the map and rarely see those wonders.
    The Wonders will disappear if you remove the attached fort. And this WILL affect PSFs. You could *probably* keep all the Wonders by tying Pyramids and Pharos to the same fort (same as was done with the 2 Wonders in SW Anatolia). That will release one culture-type so you could have a single PSF-type on the map. But if you want more culture-type forts, then yes, some Wonders will have to go. That said, the mod team has lots of experience with non-Wonder PSFs, all of it bad.
    EBII Council

  10. #10

    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Merchants as governors –Possible Idea/Feature
    I also have another idea (not mine tough) for taking more advantage of the Permanent Forts, but I think it won’t be possible because I do not see how the AI will understand this feature and there’s also the fact that EBII already uses all the resources…
    The idea would be:
    Using merchants as governors for PSF - If you stuck all resources under towns, you could use merchants like governors that you dispatch to govern the countryside. They could be renamed to minor governors or just governors and would be sent to the Fort that would be placed in a resource, generating income for you.
    Even if we don’t do this, we still can make the control of all PSFs within one’s own province worthwhile through the devastation mechanics (and it is already implemented). The forts do not generate income but they provide free upkeep for your units (I’m thinking about putting the number at 3/4 units) and in case that a fort is occupied by an enemy it incurs quite substantial loss of income through devastation, nicely representing the loss of significant settlement/area the PSF is supposed to represent.
    Rather than to use merchants, you can simply do a script with I_FactionNearTile or I_CharacterTypeNearTile. It would generate an income for the owner, AI included. And since you do not plan to use a huge number of forts, the size of the script should be reasonable.

  11. #11
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Erken View Post
    Rather than to use merchants, you can simply do a script with I_FactionNearTile or I_CharacterTypeNearTile. It would generate an income for the owner, AI included. And since you do not plan to use a huge number of forts, the size of the script should be reasonable.
    It's a good idea but just having the Forts with free upkeep for units would do the trick. My idea was just to have merchants return to the game as minor governors x)

    Are you interest in having temporary buildable forts in your sub mod? Because I'm working to have them available for all the factions

  12. #12

    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Are you interest in having temporary buildable forts in your sub mod? Because I'm working to have them available for all the factions
    I have never been able to choose between having the temporary forts and keep the wonders...but the idea is temtping. If you release it as a standalone it should be compatible though (or at least i could do a compatibility patch)

  13. #13

    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    @Sarkiss or @Aper can you help me for now on just putting temporary forts on the campaign? We will have to remove the wonders and I'm thinking about doing two kinds of script for that, one in which the cost to build a fort is free and other where it costs 1500 or 2500. This is to test what the AI ends up doing with the ability to build temporary forts.
    Sorry but due to many RL issues I don't want to get involved in any project now. Besides, I wish you all the best but the EBII team is not the first one I hear saying that PSFs are a nightmare to balance and that the best thing to do is to simply remove them.

  14. #14
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Aper View Post
    Sorry but due to many RL issues I don't want to get involved in any project now. Besides, I wish you all the best but the EBII team is not the first one I hear saying that PSFs are a nightmare to balance and that the best thing to do is to simply remove them.
    No worries, I'm currently just trying to get temporary forts in the game. I removed the wonders but EBII has the vanilla fort battle models which is not good, I don't want to be playing as Carthage or Rome and having forts with tents that have the symbol of France x)


    Anyway, PSF can be a problem when they are too many, older versions of EBII had a huge amount of them in the campaign map. I only plan to add around 20 PSF across the map and I will give those regions a scripted garrison.

  15. #15
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    I have now the forts models from DBM in the game, my only and biggest problem is the terrain and some of the models are kinda mixed with the previous model?? Anyway, I'm trying to fix it but meanwhile take a look because it's damm funny

    https://imgur.com/a/2rRlZ2j

  16. #16
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    take a look because it's damm funny

    https://imgur.com/a/2rRlZ2j
    There's nothing funny about it, I see Romans there, that's just their ancient flying fort technology, nowadays lost to us, just like roman concrete.
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  17. #17
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ View Post
    There's nothing funny about it, I see Romans there, that's just their ancient flying fort technology, nowadays lost to us, just like roman concrete.
    You're right. Most people won't believe it but it's true about the ancient roman flying technology. The big problem and the reason why most people wont believe it is the lack of archeological evidence of the flying buidings

  18. #18
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Update on the current idea - What will happen in the future

    Before I was undecided whether to have buildable temporary forts on the campaign map or Permanent Forts in the map.

    To reach a decision, I played some EBII campaigns with buildable temporary forts and I must say that I only built 2/3 forts during the campaign and it was only to prevent my Generals from rebeling. In addition, EBII players are used to not having buildable forts in campaign, so I think it would be mostly the same for new campaigns, there is no need to having the buildable forts, unless for exploits against the AI like building them next to bridges to stop the armies from passing, etc.

    I also had the chance to see how Forts in the Deus Lo Vult mod work and it's good. The models are bigger than the vanilla forts and seem like cities on both the campaign and battle map. In fact, when I first tried the mod, I conquered a city and only after some turns did I realised that it was actualy a fort. That's what I want to do in EBII.

    So, my future plans are:

    - Add Permanent Stone Forts looking like cities in EBII both in the campaign map and the battle map.

    - The number of PSF will not surpass 30 and they will be built in places with important cities in those times but not in a fair way. That is, I will try to place them far from the cities to avoid messed up behaviour from the AI (therefore, I will give preference to cities who were distant from the main cities but there will be excepetions). There will only be 1 fort per region, the cities of those regions will have a scripted garrison (some of the places already have) and as I said before, the cool down period will be reduced to 6 turns. Islands will have more forts since they don't mess up that much with the AI.

    - They will have 2 or 4 free upkeep places for units. This is to allow the player to keep some free garrison there but if some problems arise in the region (rebels or enemy armies), the player will need to bring armies from the main city in the region.

    - Some forts will be placed in the Eremos region. For now, one will replace the minor settlement resource in the arabian desert, other will be in the north of the Great Britain island, other in Ireland and other in Africa, possibly one more in the European northeast.

    - I will keep 5 wonders. The pyramids and the Pharos of Alexandria will be tied to the same fort, the 2 wonders in Anatolia and the fort for the Colossus of Rhodes. The other 2 wonders will disappear to allow for 2 more different fort models around the campaign map. So in the end, we loose 2 wonders and gain 30 new settlements in the map with possible unique battle maps.
    Last edited by Lusitanio; March 15, 2019 at 02:19 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Update on the current idea - What will happen in the future

    Before I was undecided whether to have buildable temporary forts on the campaign map or Permanent Forts in the map.

    To reach a decision, I played some EBII campaigns with buildable temporary forts and I must say that I only built 2/3 forts during the campaign and it was only to prevent my Generals from rebeling. In addition, EBII players are used to not having buildable forts in campaign, so I think it would be mostly the same for new campaigns, there is no need to having the buildable forts, unless for exploits against the AI like building them next to bridges to stop the armies from passing, etc.

    I also had the chance to see how Forts in the Deus Lo Vult mod work and it's good. The models are bigger than the vanilla forts and seem like cities on both the campaign and battle map. In fact, when I first tried the mod, I conquered a city and only after some turns did I realised that it was actualy a fort. That's what I want to do in EBII.

    So, my future plans are:

    - Add Permanent Stone Forts looking like cities in EBII both in the campaign map and the battle map.

    - The number of PSF will not surpass 30 and they will be built in places with important cities in those times but not in a fair way. That is, I will try to place them far from the cities to avoid messed up behaviour from the AI (therefore, I will give preference to cities who were distant from the main cities but there will be excepetions). There will only be 1 fort per region, the cities of those regions will have a scripted garrison (some of the places already have) and as I said before, the cool down period will be reduced to 6 turns. Islands will have more forts since they don't mess up that much with the AI.

    - They will have 2 or 4 free upkeep places for units. This is to allow the player to keep some free garrison there but if some problems arise in the region (rebels or enemy armies), the player will need to bring armies from the main city in the region.

    - Some forts will be placed in the Eremos region. For now, one will replace the minor settlement resource in the arabian desert, other will be in the north of the Great Britain island, other in Ireland and other in Africa, possibly one more in the European northeast.

    - I will keep 5 wonders. The pyramids and the Pharos of Alexandria will be tied to the same fort, the 2 wonders in Anatolia and the fort for the Colossus of Rhodes. The other 2 wonders will disappear to allow for 2 more different fort models around the campaign map. So in the end, we loose 2 wonders and gain 30 new settlements in the map with possible unique battle maps.

    i love the idea of forts in the game i just cant see the sense of making stone forts that look like cities? id rather have woodforts would be more realistic and not so "expensive" and possible for anyone

  20. #20
    Lusitanio's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preparing for a Permanent Forts Submod

    What you mean by expensive? They will be pre placed forts, the player won't have the possibility of building the forts in the campaign map.

    They will look like cities because they will be representing actual cities there.

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