Macedonia approves constitutional amendment to change country's name to Republic of North Macedonia

[Ludicus]

ex ottoman macedonia refers to greek maceonia also. just vardaria would be a descriptive and good name

Why?
History teaches that the northern Region was conquered by the kingdom of Macedonia in the 4th century BC; the Romans conquered the region in the 2th century BC and made it part of the much larger province of Macedonia.Under the Ottomans, the concept of Macedonia persisted.
But I see your point,the language isn't the Greek.
Well, let's change the name: "Slavo-Macedonian Republic"

[neoptolemos]

Well, let's change the name: "Slavo-Macedonian Republic"

Actually this was a proposed name (IMHO a fair name) back in the 90s but the Albanians living in FYROM (1/4 of the total population) rejected it because they do not want to be related to a name like this.
I would like to repeat that the whole name issue is not related to the Roman province but with the Ottoman villaet, the mixed populations and the clash of Serbian (and Later Yugoslav), Bulgarian and Greek interests in the area.
For those who read the new agreement, they would have noticed that Ancient Macedonia and Ancient Macedonians are aknowledged as part of Greek heritage and history and with no relation with the people living in Northern Macedonia. That ends the Slavmacedonian wet dreams and Greek reactionary attitudes.

[Platon]

Elisabeth Warren

She is a US senator who may become the democrats next presidential candidate.

She is very proud of her native American ancestry, claiming that she has Cherokee roots. But President Trump questioned it and mocked her, calling her Pocahontas.
But she took a DNA test and yes, they could detect some traces (I think 0,001% or something like that) that could potentially be considered as proof.

Now.. is she really Cherokee?
Does she speak Cherokee? - nope!
Does she have a Cherokee name? - nope!
Does she follow any Cherokee customs or cultural traditions? - nope!
Does she look Cherokee? (Google her pic and judge for yourselves)

Why am I writing this?

Well, if you think that Elisabeth Warren is actually Cherokee, then you probably also support that Fyrom is Macedonia

But if you think that Elisabeth Warren is a complete fake - then you come close to what Greeks feel about Fyrom...

[emoji6]


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[TheLeft]

This is quite possibly the single stupidest diplomatic row I've ever heard of. The only solution I can see is for the UN to intervene and forcibly rename both the country and province in Greece accordingly:

The region of Greece gets renamed to: Dumbasia
Macedonia gets renamed to: Thickasshit

It's the same thing when you were a kid and arguing with your sister over who gets the toy. Your mother would get tired of the silly argument and take said toy away from you. This is the same principle.

[PointOfViewGun]

Elisabeth Warren
She is a US senator who may become the democrats next presidential candidate.
She is very proud of her native American ancestry, claiming that she has Cherokee roots. But President Trump questioned it and mocked her, calling her Pocahontas.
But she took a DNA test and yes, they could detect some traces (I think 0,001% or something like that) that could potentially be considered as proof.
Now.. is she really Cherokee?
Does she speak Cherokee? - nope!
Does she have a Cherokee name? - nope!
Does she follow any Cherokee customs or cultural traditions? - nope!
Does she look Cherokee? (Google her pic and judge for yourselves)
Why am I writing this?
Well, if you think that Elisabeth Warren is actually Cherokee, then you probably also support that Fyrom is Macedonia
But if you think that Elisabeth Warren is a complete fake - then you come close to what Greeks feel about Fyrom...

Except Elizabeth Warren never claimed to be Cherokee, but that she had Cherokee ancestry which was proven to be true by a DNA analysis, a bet Trump made and lost. So, no, no one who follows actual facts thinks that Elizabeth Warren is a Cherokee. The same way they know that Macedonia, the country, does not claim to be the ancient Macedonian kingdom. People on both examples choose to distort what is being claimed and distort facts in accordance to their liking. Overall, both issues are extremely petty.

So, when is Greece changing the name of the Macedonian province to South Macedonia?

[Morifea]

What about: "Repulic of mostly ethnic slavs, that have some cool ruins and therefore feel greek"

The Ideas of TheLeft are also very fitting

[Abdülmecid I]

I can understand how greeks would be angry with people trying to steal their history by claiming to be heirs to alexander and the makedons, and other outright falsehoods. For people sitting on high horses though, this is an excellent opportunity to deride others as childish yokels.

Why should nationalism be treated with respect? This attitude reminds me of religious fundamentalists who reject any criticism against their religion as unacceptably insensitive. Similarly to many religious beliefs, nationalism is a dogmatic ideology, marked by self-contradictions and a deep hostility against science, reason and reality, while also being extremely efficient at dividing societies and communities and allowing the mob to be manipulated against its own interests. In fact, the name dispute is an informative example of all these negative aspects, as it's clearly responsible for polarisation, rioting and destruction of public property, collapse of diplomatic relations, the rise of far-right demagogues (from Gruevski to the Golden Dawn), while it also distorts history, geography and even biology. It is interesting to note that the affection of modern Greek nationalists towards the Argead royal dynasty is a relatively recent development. In early 19th century, Greek nationalists wholeheartedly despised the Macedonians (which they clearly discerned from the Greeks) and considered the battle of Chaeronea as the beginning of the enslavement that was only terminated in 1830. This approach gradually changed, once Romanticism replaced the Athens-obsessed Enlightenment and Greek intellectuals were finally emancipated from their European colleagues, so they were now capable of producing a more unique narrative, than simply parroting Rousseau and Voltaire, not to mention the need to morally their calls for annexing the Vilayet of Selanik to the Western audience. At first, they incorporated Alexander, while Philip's acceptance was slower and generally coincided with the endorsement of the Byzantine Empire, previously viewed as a nefarious, Oriental tyranny. I suspect Korais is the most notorious hater, but the catalogue contains many authors, Ministers, renowned archeologists and university rectors, who blamed Philip for corrupting and subjugating the Greeks, as well as for "giving birth to Alexander!". This is why everyone somewhat familiar with the history and evolution of nationalist doctrines cannot take this dispute seriously. Who knows, maybe in a hundred years from now, the Macedonian dynasty will revert back to its former status of barbarian imperialists, while Greece and Turkey will be bickering with each other about the monopoly of exploiting the "glorious, Ottoman heritage".

A very summary description of the issue, with fully-referenced citations to a small number of indicative examples

http://www.academia.edu/29057551/_Te...historiography

Wait is your map coloring Amphipolis blue. Do you know how many good Athenian Greeks died to try to keep their heritage there not being called Macedonian?

Yes, indeed. Everything to the west of the river Mesta, the island of Thasos included, is part of the Greek province of Macedonia. The borders of the province were not determined by historical considerations, but by the conquests achieved during the Balkan Wars, at the expense of the Ottoman Empire and the Bulgarian Kingdom. It's rather ironic that the Greek nationalists prefer such a strict and antiquity-orientated definition of Macedonia, despite the fact that even the Greek province violates their criteria.

Under the Ottomans, the concept of Macedonia persisted.

No, it did not. With the exception of an administrative unit actually located in Thrace, that claim is not true even for the Byzantine Empire. The reintroduction of the concept of Macedonia in the Balkans is the result of the importation of European Romanticism by nationalist intellectuals and middle/upper classes focused on commercial activities in the late 19th century. For more details, you can read my reply to NosPortatArma.

Language: We cannot accept the language as Macedonian. Apart from mixing things with the ancient language, it's also something that will continue to cause problems in the future. Slavomacedonian goes perfectly here and would probably be fine with the Albanians as well. It IS after all a dialect of Bulgarian which developed in Ottoman Macedonia.

The text of the agreement explicitly mentions that the Macedonian language because to the South-Slavic group, so I can't see how any misunderstandings will occur. After all, I thought that the ancient Macedonians spoke a Greek dialect, thus confirming their cultural links with their southern brothers, and not a separate language. By the way, I doubt that anybody, except for a bunch of Franco apologists, considers the territorial claims of Spain about Gibraltar as justifiable and reasonable. A comparison with the international examples does not support the refusal to reach a productive compromise. For instance, although the SE province of Belgium is called Luxembourg, Henri, the Grand Duke, has so far resisted the temptation to invade it and annex and incorporate it to his rising empire.

[Platon]

... they know that Macedonia, the country, does not claim to be the ancient Macedonian kingdom. People on both examples choose to distort what is being claimed and distort facts in accordance to their liking. Overall, both issues are extremely petty.

Ah, but they do you see..
They turned their capitol Skopje into an ancient Macedonian Disneyland.

That would be like if Elisabeth Warren put on some feathers on her head, paint her face, bang the drum and dance around the fire like she have seen the natives behaved in some Hollywood movies - to try to make a point!

Greeks know this of course. The rest of the world stays ignorant..
Except the Bulgarians who laugh their ass off.. they get the bluff because they speak the same ing language!
(And that language is, if you didn't guess it, Bulgarian - Not Macedonian)

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[NosPortatArma]

Why should nationalism be treated with respect? This attitude reminds me of religious fundamentalists who reject any criticism against their religion as unacceptably insensitive. Similarly to many religious beliefs, nationalism is a dogmatic ideology, marked by self-contradictions and a deep hostility against science, reason and reality, while also being extremely efficient at dividing societies and communities and allowing the mob to be manipulated against its own interests. In fact, the name dispute is an informative example of all these negative aspects, as it's clearly responsible for polarisation, rioting and destruction of public property, collapse of diplomatic relations, the rise of far-right demagogues (from Gruevski to the Golden Dawn), while it also distorts history, geography and even biology. It is interesting to note that the affection of modern Greek nationalists towards the Argead royal dynasty is a relatively recent development. In early 19th century, Greek nationalists wholeheartedly despised the Macedonians (which they clearly discerned from the Greeks) and considered the battle of Chaeronea as the beginning of the enslavement that was only terminated in 1830. This approach gradually changed, once Romanticism replaced the Athens-obsessed Enlightenment and Greek intellectuals were finally emancipated from their European colleagues, so they were now capable of producing a more unique narrative, than simply parroting Rousseau and Voltaire, not to mention the need to morally their calls for annexing the Vilayet of Selanik to the Western audience. At first, they incorporated Alexander, while Philip's acceptance was slower and generally coincided with the endorsement of the Byzantine Empire, previously viewed as a nefarious, Oriental tyranny. I suspect Korais is the most notorious hater, but the catalogue contains many authors, Ministers, renowned archeologists and university rectors, who blamed Philip for corrupting and subjugating the Greeks, as well as for "giving birth to Alexander!". This is why everyone somewhat familiar with the history and evolution of nationalist doctrines cannot take this dispute seriously. Who knows, maybe in a hundred years from now, the Macedonian dynasty will revert back to its former status of barbarian imperialists, while Greece and Turkey will be bickering with each other about the monopoly of exploiting the "glorious, Ottoman heritage".

you can choose to see it as silly nationalists who believe in myths and revised history, but the macedonia situation is clearly not such a case. Anyone who knows basic history knows that macedonians were greeks, that's not myth or history through a nationalist lense. thus anyone would be offended by non-greeks claiming to be macedonians just as they would be offended when someone denies any other obvious fact. calling your country macedonia implies several false things. it implies your territory represents macedonia, but macedonia actually refers to a much larger region and the historical core of it is within greece. it implies a connection to ancient macedonians (especially as they use such symbolism as they do), when in reality any possible such connection is infititely weaker than greeks' connection to ancient macedon.

the name macedonia to refer to fyrom makes no geographic sense, and it makes no historical sense. of course, one can choose to just belittle balkanites for being balkanites and silly nationalists, and perhaps it's not the most important of issues, but that is not relevant to the point. Fact is that "macedonia" is just a very bad name to refer to fyrom.

[neoptolemos]

So, when is Greece changing the name of the Macedonian province to South Macedonia?

Why would Greece do that?
The whole point is that a coutry which is a part of a larger entity (namely Ottoman Macedonia) cannot monopolize the whole name by naming itself as such.
Ottoman Macedonia=/= FYR Macedonia. North Macedonia in indeed an acceptable name since it is actually the Northern part of the previous geographical entity.
Concerning Macedonia province in Greece. Greece already has administratively divided the province and gave names such as Western Macedonia. Central Macedonia and Eastern Macedonia regions.
Besides Macedonia is a historical Greek name, and Greece owns the lands of the ancient Greek kingdom so Greek Macedonia=Ancient Macedonia


@Abdulmecid

Do you know what is this?

Rigas' goals and the pamphlet's interpretation

As Rigas stated to the Austrian authorities, the publication of the pamphlet aimed to the awakening of Greek’s national consciousness. The historical information that he quotes, aim to the national uplift of the enslaved and to the connection with the glorious ancient past, just like the rest of Riga’s publications. The short and comprehensive biography of Alexander makes him a legendary hero who survived through the centuries and became an example to follow. Through his legendary accomplishments becomes the timeless symbol of national liberation in Modern Greek consciousness. The Ottoman conquerors are identified with the Persians who should be repelled same way as the Macedonian king did. Rigas published this portrait for one more reason which is detected to the colophon of the picture. The phrase “for the Greeks and the Philhellenes” makes it clear that the enslaved Greeks must rise up and claim their independence, mainly counting on the help of France, since during this period the Great Napoleon promises the liberation of the Greeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamphlet_of_Rigas_Feraios
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios

[conon394]

Greece owns the lands of the ancient Greek kingdom

OK I get it for reasons that beyond me this is important to Greeks and I really don't mean to be a prat but what Ancient Greek Kingdom?

[neoptolemos]

what Ancient Greek Kingdom?

what Greek kingdoms of central asia?
https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/sites...ral%20asia.pdf

[Ludicus]

Actually this was a proposed name (IMHO a fair name) back in the 90s but the Albanians living in FYROM (1/4 of the total population) rejected it because they do not want to be related to a name like this.
I would like to repeat that the whole name issue is not related to the Roman province but with the Ottoman villaet, the mixed populations and the clash of Serbian (and Later Yugoslav), Bulgarian and Greek interests in the area.
For those who read the new agreement, they would have noticed that Ancient Macedonia and Ancient Macedonians are aknowledged as part of Greek heritage and history and with no relation with the people living in Northern Macedonia. That ends the Slavmacedonian wet dreams and Greek reactionary attitudes.

My dear friend, I'm learning from you
--
I missed this,

No, it did not

Indeed, you are right, but I didn't make myself clear. I know that during the time of Abdülhamid II, the Ottoman bureaucracy was not even allowed to use the word Macedonia. And yet, ironically, when the time came, in 1908,the British King and the Ksar agreed on a reforming project for Ottoman Macedonia that envisaged placing it under international control.There was a real danger for Macedonia to fall into the hands of the Great Powers.
So, what happened? The Young Turks Committee "Unity and Progress" sent a Memorandum to the Great Powers in May 1908. The Memorandum stated -excerpt,

We would like to inform you that Macedonia is part of the Ottoman Empire from all aspects.
Macedonia has been exposed to great pressure by the authorities. We shall eliminate that pressure without the interference of Europe. However, if Europe wants to help us and to help the humanity then it should give up any initiatives. In order to be able to put an end to that governance, it should impose pressure on Sultan Abdul Hamid II and the governments in Sofia, Athens and Belgrade. This is the path that could ensure peace and safety in Macedonia

This little excerpt repeats the same word (Macedonia) three times. Ottoman Macedonia for some time was also the centre for organising the resistance of the Macedonian population against the absolutist regime.

To conclude, Macedonia is a strange case of a community that is imagined but by no means imaginary.

[Ludicus]

double post.

[PointOfViewGun]

Ah, but they do you see..
They turned their capitol Skopje into an ancient Macedonian Disneyland.
That would be like if Elisabeth Warren put on some feathers on her head, paint her face, bang the drum and dance around the fire like she have seen the natives behaved in some Hollywood movies - to try to make a point!
Greeks know this of course. The rest of the world stays ignorant..
Except the Bulgarians who laugh their ass off.. they get the bluff because they speak the same ing language!
(And that language is, if you didn't guess it, Bulgarian - Not Macedonian)

That would be more like Elizabet Warren pointed to a Native American heritage and talked about it which is in her right to do so. Your position would have more merit if Macedonians actually tried to speak a form of ancient Macedonian. They don't.

Why would Greece do that?
The whole point is that a coutry which is a part of a larger entity (namely Ottoman Macedonia) cannot monopolize the whole name by naming itself as such.
Ottoman Macedonia=/= FYR Macedonia. North Macedonia in indeed an acceptable name since it is actually the Northern part of the previous geographical entity.
Concerning Macedonia province in Greece. Greece already has administratively divided the province and gave names such as Western Macedonia. Central Macedonia and Eastern Macedonia regions.
Besides Macedonia is a historical Greek name, and Greece owns the lands of the ancient Greek kingdom so Greek Macedonia=Ancient Macedonia

That "whole point" has no merit. Greeks have been monopolizing ancient Greek heritage for a long time despite having little to no continuity without anyone making a fuss. You are applying abundantly clear double standards here. There is no logic to why its not fine for Macedonia to use the name as their country's name, but that its fine for Greece to use the name for a province. Either both entities use the name in the way they want or they both use it bilaterally. Greece diving the province to 3 parts has no merit in this context. I don't know why you'd even mention it. I guess you did to add words to your post for the sake of it. If your position is that Macedonia province Greece is specifically named after the ancient kingdom of Macedonia because it coincides in its region (which is not entirely true depending on what time frame and context you look in to) then you would have argued for naming it in a way to indicate that status. Yet, there is no effort in there. The Macedonia province of Greece was also cut from the Ottoman Macedonia. If the country of Macedonia is supposed to be based on the Ottoman province then so does the Greek province. Overall, it's a petty dispute.

[conon394]

what Greek kingdoms of central asia?
https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/sites...ral%20asia.pdf

So Modern Greece owns every place Alexander walked about it?

[Ludicus]

The new name, Republic of North Macedonia, made a clear distinction between Greek Macedonia and the northern part - as it should be. A splendid solution.

With a few exceptions, the notion of an objective map -particularly in the Balkans - especially one that claims to represent ethnic groups in situ, is pure fiction even today. Turks never used ethnographic maps, in fact they were not part of the vocabulary of Ottoman empire, because the Ottoman Empire did not have any desire to transform the empire into a nation-state (on the contrary,the Young Turks were willing to create a nation-state (see above, previous post).

Let's keep in mind what Edney says, On the invention of India, Mapping an Empire,
"The power of naming through geographical exploration was so persuasive that a colonial invention could later be embraced by anti-colonial nationalist elites as the definition of a homeland they would liberate".

In fact, European colonial projects charted the world - in this case, the Balkans -measured their overseas acquisitions, created and named entire regions according to their interests. Balkans, Africa...

[Sir Adrian]

If Greece does not accept this common sense lose nothing compromise it should be hit with every sanction at the international community's disposal. Here we have a country which is failing in every single aspect and their main worry is not how to fix their disintegrating state but how other people name their country.

It is absolutely shameful behavior.

[Aexodus]

I haven’t been following this. Is Greece really not accepting North Macedonia? Wow.

[Love Mountain]

I hope you’re being hyperbolic Settra, otherwise it is just as silly to be punitive towards a country that holds backwards views. While I find Greek diplomatic efforts to isolate FYROM over their country’s name to be absolutely petty and moronic, I don’t think there is any need to disproportionally punish them either.

The international solution to this shouldve been simple. Admit Macedonia to the EU as a partial member. A unique process can be drafted for Macedonia. Such agreements have been drawn up before, note The EU Ukraine agreement. Progressively build upon it until Macedonia Ready to become an EU member. To really spite Greece and demonstrate that such silly behavior is unacceptable, craft an agreement that makes Macedonia a de facto EU member. That’ll avoid the need for Greece’s vote.

if Greece starts causing trouble by delibarately using their vote against EU interests, start a constitutional change and process to devise a way to kick Greece out of the Union.