[Submod] Age of Hellenism for DEI

[nikossaiz]

a simple script that would trigger peace between Rome and Epirus once Taras is taken by the Romans. That would prevent Rome from conquering them entirely and crossing the Adriatic too early in the game. Thare are, however, potential problems associated with it as well. Like for example Rome first crossing the Adriatic and taking Apollonia, and then going for Taras as they actually did in my recent campaign with Macedon.

that would be nice. If it is possible to write parameters like "peace only if apollonia isnt in romes position" The AI dont know the script so it will be a kind of random what will do.

No, no, it is actually the opposite

Very good, i support it.

further feedback. The greek peninsula is in constant termoil, aitolian league reemerge, conquered by rome, reemerged , conquered by rome, reemerged by Athens. Macedonia reemerged as macedonian usurpers. I make all greek factions ( makedonian unsurpers, aitolian noblels, sparta, athens ) allies and make a unite front against rome. Rome meanwhile conquer all andriatic coast but cant go further into balkans or greece. I send a full stack army ( seleucids ) with sarrisas, elephants and the like and with the other greeks will through rome into sea i believe. Rome herself didnt expand north on italian peninsula nor in syracuse. ptolaimei stand still.

Every fleet has 8 turns of supllies, is it possible if a fleet is near an ally harbor or teritory not to eat from their suplies? that way i can use my alliing block on greece not only for supporting armies but also fleets.

till now it is a very unusual and interesting campaign .

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

that would be nice. If it is possible to write parameters like "peace only if apollonia isnt in romes position" The AI dont know the script so it will be a kind of random what will do.

Yes, something like this should be possible and it should be actually within my poor scripting abilities to execute it.

I will definitely have a look into it at some point in the near future.

Every fleet has 8 turns of supllies, is it possible if a fleet is near an ally harbor or teritory not to eat from their suplies? that way i can use my alliing block on greece not only for supporting armies but also fleets.

You know, once I brought this up in the DeI suggestions thread that it would be really nice if a fleet can resupply once it spends one turn in the vicinity of an allied port or an allied settlement. One of the devs replied to it saying that they were contemplating this, but I don't think they have taken it any further since then. I think it would be great to have such a feature and scripting-wise it should be possible to do it, I believe.

----------------------

And what would you say about my edicts, nikossaiz?

I've been playing myself a bit more lately and I've been thinking that some of the penalties for some of my edicts are perhaps a bit too harsh in relation to the bonuses they provide. Especially, if one uses already other mods such as for example Alternative Economy, which already makes the whole campaign management very tough.

I think, for example, that the Colonization edict should provide more growth to balance it out against those penalties it entails. Furthermore, the Commercial Stimulation should provide bonus to both maritime commerce and local commerce, and not only the local commerce as it does now. Plus the tax rate penalty should be lowered to make sure that this edict will prove beneficial for the majority of provinces with income from commerce.

What do you think? Are there any edicts that you like in particular? Or perhaps some of these edicts you don't use at all as you don't find them useful in any circumstances?

[nikossaiz]

I will definitely have a look into it at some point in the near future.

perfect! hope it is nearer than near then

great to have such a feature and scripting-wise it should be possible to do it

it can change the hall strategic perspective of the game to be honest. But after so many years the devs wouldnt do it if it was possible?

And what would you say about my edicts

Edicts are indeed a very powerfull and campaign changing aspect. I definetely dont use the export food, inport food. It simple dont worth to spend an Edict for 1 food plus. As for the others i have to see them again in play to remember the effects of its one. Also i thing the free the greeks ( i dont like the name of it, even if i am greek myself. i d prefered a more buraucratice one ) should have other effects. I cant recall them now but i give you feedback for sure.
After a lot lot campaigns, Rome for the first time hasnt conquer the greek peninsula. They expanded in all adriatic coast and now go into the getae teritories.

[Nekyo]

Yes, something like this should be possible and it should be actually within my poor scripting abilities to execute it.

I will definitely have a look into it at some point in the near future.



You know, once I brought this up in the DeI suggestions thread that it would be really nice if a fleet can resupply once it spends one turn in the vicinity of an allied port or an allied settlement. One of the devs replied to it saying that they were contemplating this, but I don't think they have taken it any further since then. I think it would be great to have such a feature and scripting-wise it should be possible to do it, I believe.

----------------------

And what would you say about my edicts, nikossaiz?

I've been playing myself a bit more lately and I've been thinking that some of the penalties for some of my edicts are perhaps a bit too harsh in relation to the bonuses they provide. Especially, if one uses already other mods such as for example Alternative Economy, which already makes the whole campaign management very tough.

I think, for example, that the Colonization edict should provide more growth to balance it out against those penalties it entails. Furthermore, the Commercial Stimulation should provide bonus to both maritime commerce and local commerce, and not only the local commerce as it does now. Plus the tax rate penalty should be lowered to make sure that this edict will prove beneficial for the majority of provinces with income from commerce.

What do you think? Are there any edicts that you like in particular? Or perhaps some of these edicts you don't use at all as you don't find them useful in any circumstances?

I've played with Age of Hellenism now quite a bit and overall it's great.
About the edicts, I'm not all sold.
Most of them are fairly balanced and I like them. Maybe decrease the mali slightly with the Freedom to the Greeks and Colonization edicts.
But I especially dislike the war mobilization;
yes, I cant pop out an army slightly faster with reduced recruitment cost but I find that it usually only saves one or two turns for a full stack, given that you need an entire province for an edict and those tend to have 3-4 recruitment slots anyway. The increased tax rate and reduced recruitment cost usually dont make up for all the tax money lost following the edict by going from a motivated populance to an angered one until PO recovers. I'd decrease the -PO malus quite a bit.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

it can change the hall strategic perspective of the game to be honest. But after so many years the devs wouldnt do it if it was possible?

Well, it might be also that the whole thing was first brushed aside and then kind of forgotten. Like I said above, I think it should be possibe to do this as there is a function in the lua script that allows you to track the position of one item on the map (like a fleet, for instance) in relation to another item (which can be a port or a settlement, though that I'm not 100% sure about). And if you can do this, then you should quite easily be able to insert a command to resupply a fleet once a certain condition is met. I realize, though, that there might be some further implications/obstacles here that I'm not aware of as this is basically just a thought in my head and I haven't even tried to test it myself.

Also i thing the free the greeks ( i dont like the name of it, even if i am greek myself. i d prefered a more buraucratice one ) should have other effects. I cant recall them now but i give you feedback for sure.

Regardig this Freedom to the Greeks edict, that's something that reflects some important, historical developments in the Hellenistic Age and that's why I found it appropiate to insert it in the game in the form of an edict. As mentioned in the OP, such policy was on numerous occasions adapted by the Successors (and Rome) and by that name it is also referred to in the literature on the subject. I could call it something like "Urban Autonomy", but I just thought that name would be more direct and precise.

When it comes to the edict effects, the tax penalty was an obvious choice here as that would historically be a downside of such policy since the Greek poleis, once they have been granted freedom, would be exempt from royal taxation and their territory (Greek chora) would at times be even enlarged by the king so as to increase their revenue at the expense of the king's revenue which could otherwise be raised from this land. In exchange for his munificence, the king would earn himself the loyalty of these poleis, reflected here in the positive PO tied to the perecentage of the Hellenic culture in a province, and he could also rely on their manpower which would supply his military forces as his allies, thus reduced recruitment for the heavy infantry units and fleet. Such declarations would also be viewed as the promotional acts of the Hellenic culture. Therefore, I found it appropriate to link this edict to the spread of the Hellenic culture, which actually comes very handy to those who use Cultural Tensio submod. I frankly use this edict quite often myself, as long as I can afford the hit to the tax rate in a province.

I've played with Age of Hellenism now quite a bit and overall it's great.
About the edicts, I'm not all sold.
Most of them are fairly balanced and I like them. Maybe decrease the mali slightly with the Freedom to the Greeks and Colonization edicts.
But I especially dislike the war mobilization;
yes, I cant pop out an army slightly faster with reduced recruitment cost but I find that it usually only saves one or two turns for a full stack, given that you need an entire province for an edict and those tend to have 3-4 recruitment slots anyway. The increased tax rate and reduced recruitment cost usually dont make up for all the tax money lost following the edict by going from a motivated populance to an angered one until PO recovers. I'd decrease the -PO malus quite a bit.

Thank you very much, Nekyo, for your feedback. These are some very valid points, expecially with regard to the War Moblization edict.

------------------

I've got recently some very valuable feedback from you, guys, which I'm very thankful for. Plus I've also managed to play a bit myself. I will then just consider all these suggestions and this week I'm gonna do some balancing for the edict effects and towards the end of the week I will release a small update!

[nikossaiz]

Well, it might be also that the whole thing was first brushed aside and then kind of forgotten

Then i hope sameone can track this. At least not consume your own fleet supllies near an allied port.

according to edicts the key is to make the bonus to one section appealing when have a disadvantage to another. money/public order, military / research rates etch. Till now i almost always use "free greeks" and comerciall witch change it with sell the slaves. I would like the edicts to have something like a more long term bonuses also.

Oh, would be nice to introduce in the next update the rome vs eipirous script if it is possible

[hbghimself]

Is it intended ir a bug that the two wonders in Greece are still giving a bonus for „bread & games“. I use your mod, ae, ct and the latest dei + sone graphical stuff. Besides from this, nice work!

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

I would like the edicts to have something like a more long term bonuses also.

Due to the temporary nature of the edicts, it's hard really to design them in a way that they will have a more long-lasting effect in the campaign. That said, the Colonization edict was actually meant to have this more long-lasting effect as that edict doesn't really give you any immediate bonus, but instead allows you to develop your provinces faster and get the additional building slots quicker. Freedom to the Greeks edict has also some more long-lasting properties as it boosts the Hellenic cultural conversion which is quite crucial expecially if you use the Cultural Tensio submod.

Oh, would be nice to introduce in the next update the rome vs eipirous script if it is possible

No, I'm sadly not planning to do it now. Even though such a script will be relatively simple, it will still take some time for me to write it and there are some other things that I would like to address in the first place.

Is it intended ir a bug that the two wonders in Greece are still giving a bonus for „bread & games“. I use your mod, ae, ct and the latest dei + sone graphical stuff. Besides from this, nice work!

It's an oversight on my part. Thank you for reporting it, hbghimself!

I'll fix it with the next update.

[Nordling]

@Seleukos, the problem is that only hellenic factions use those edicts but the changes affect all factions alike - for example, carthaginian buildings (majority of those refer to the same tables as hellenic ones) do not have those edicts but still receive buffs to them while being stripped of those buffs for their own edicts. What this essentially means is that your submod is only playable with hellenic factions. I don't see it as an issue since this the aim of the mod, however it might cause some problems in a few campaigns...
Cheers!

My suggestion - instead of replacing former buffs add new ones instead. This way it will affect all factions the same.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

@Nordling,

Yes, this is true, indeed. From what I remember now this problem concerns only Carthaginian buildings since they share the same building chains with the Hellenic factions. That wouldn't thus be a problem for the Romans or any of the Barbaric or Eastern factions, but yes, it's a problem for the Carthaginians. Sorry, I didn't really think about it yesterday when we started that h2h.

Just adding the new buffs wouldn't really be a solution since then you would still see all the references to the new edicts while playing Carthaginians, while at the same time you will see the references to the old edicts while playing any of the Hellenic factions.

I'll have to think about sth for us. Maybe I'll just give Carthaginians the same set of edicts apart from the Freedom to the Greeks, as that wouldn't really suite them well, I'm afraid.

[Nordling]

@Nordling,

Yes, this is true, indeed. From what I remember now this problem concerns only Carthaginian buildings since they share the same building chains with the Hellenic factions. That wouldn't thus be a problem for the Romans or any of the Barbaric or Eastern factions, but yes, it's a problem for the Carthaginians. Sorry, I didn't really think about it yesterday when we started that h2h.

Just adding the new buffs wouldn't really be a solution since then you would still see all the references to the new edicts while playing Carthaginians, while at the same time you will see the references to the old edicts while playing any of the Hellenic factions.

I'll have to think about sth for us. Maybe I'll just give Carthaginians the same set of edicts apart from the Freedom to the Greeks, as that wouldn't really suite them well, I'm afraid.

Yeah, I know that it would be visible - but is it really such a big issue? I mean, you can always right click on a said building to see full list of building effects so, for the sake of compatibility, I would consider going for it. I am not sure if applying said edicts to carthage would be appropriate on historical basis but that is for you to decide since it is your submod

Edit: are you sure that other factiona don't use same tables as well? I'm thinking mainly about port and agriculture buildings - don't romans and easterners share the same port tables and some of agriculture tables as well?

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Yes, that would actually be the problem if you see the effects linked to the old edicts in the building UI while playing the Hellenic factions. And given that this mod is basically meant for those playing the Hellenic factions I don't think it's reasonable to have all those effects there just for the sake of compatibility with Carthage.

I can't check this now, but I'm quite sure that other cultural faction groups have their building rosters in their own tables, so yeah I think the problem is only the Carthaginians.

The 'cleanest' solution would be to create custom building rosters for the Carthaginians so that they can have their own effects there, but that would obviously involve a lot of work to set it up just to have a couple of different building effects, so that's not a viable option at this stage.

Yes, my Hellenic custom effects wouldn't, for the most part, fit historically the Carthaginians. But anyway, I will think about some easy fix just for the two of us for that h2h campaign.

[Nordling]

Yes, that would actually be the problem if you see the effects linked to the old edicts in the building UI while playing the Hellenic factions. And given that this mod is basically meant for those playing the Hellenic factions I don't think it's reasonable to have all those effects there just for the sake of compatibility with Carthage.

I can't check this now, but I'm quite sure that other cultural faction groups have their building rosters in their own tables, so yeah I think the problem is only the Carthaginians.

The 'cleanest' solution would be to create custom building rosters for the Carthaginians so that they can have their own effects there, but that would obviously involve a lot of work to set it up just to have a couple of different building effects, so that's not a viable option at this stage.

Yes, my Hellenic custom effects wouldn't, for the most part, fit historically the Carthaginians. But anyway, I will think about some easy fix just for the two of us for that h2h campaign.

Yeah, that'd do the trick, i suppose

@Seleukos - I finally had a campaign where seleucids thrive. Played athens a bit this week and seleucids seem to overcome their immediate opposition. They went into some kind of stalemate with ptolemies as neither took any provinces from the other one, however they went into war quite early on. Seleucids took some armenian land and are expanding slowly into persia; also, they are in war with pretty much everybody in the middle east. Looking forward to fight them!

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Good to hear that, Nordling!

Yeah, in my last two campaigns, one with Macedon, the other with the Ptolemies, they've been doing pretty well. In the one with Macedon, the Seleucids lost some regions in the east, but they made up for it taking Laodicea and Salamis from the Ptolemies, and in Asia Minor they conquered Mazaca, Samosata and Apamea Kelainai. They liberated also Side and their center looks basically really strong with multiple stacks of good quality units. In my Ptolemaic playthrough, they lost Antiocheia Kydnos (Tarsos) and Antiocheia Charax, but this time they've actually conquered all Media apart from one region. Needless to say, in both campaigns they've faced multiple enemies on multiple fronts, especially after the satrapal rebellion, in which all their satrapies rebelled but Lidia.

I've already got an update ready for release which I'm going to publish tonight. In that update the defensive autoresolve bonus for the major factions against minor factions has been slightly buffed, which will make it even more difficult for minor factions to take land from the big fellas. Other than that, the biggest problem for the Seleucids is no doubt this satrapal rebellion, which is going to be my priority now. I'll be aiming at approx. 50-50 for the ratio of the satrapies that actually break out once that rebellion triggers for the AI-controlled Seleucids.

------------------------------------------

The new update - 1.1a - has been released for the Age of Hellenism, please, check the download link in the opening post. It contains:

• Rebalancing of the edict effects - the effects have overall been buffed
  
  • War Mobilization; decreased PO penalty while the number of recruitment slots has been increased
  • Commercial Stimulation; bonus from trade modified to both land trade and maritime trade and tax modifier penalty decreased so as to make this edict beneficial for most of the provinces with income from trade
  • Colonization; bonus to growth increased while the penalty to PO decreased
  • Freedom to the Greeks; bonus to the conversion to the Hellenic culture slightly increased
  
  
• Since the edicts are designed on a bonus-against-penalty basis, I've thought it appropriate to increase the edict allowance by 1 for each imperium level
• Slight modifications to the autoresolve script
  
  • defensive autoresolve bonus for all major factions against all minor factions has been slightly buffed to make it even more difficult for minor factions to take land from major factions
  • offensive autoresolve bonus for Rome against other major factions has been minimally decreased
  
  
• Fixed the instances of some of the wonders' effects linking up with the old edicts
• Fixed a number of text localization errors

The update is savegame compatible so you can easily use it on your ongoing campaign.

Tomorrow I'll update the description in the opening post with the new edict effects.

Thanks to Nordling, Tenerife Boy, Falco, Nikossaiz and others who have taken their time to give me some proper feedback!

[Jake Armitage]

Well done!

Think I'm gonna steal 2 things here:
1) some of your ideas for PIGS edicts
2) autoresolve for Testudo

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Well done!

Think I'm gonna steal 2 things here:
1) some of your ideas for PIGS edicts
2) autoresolve for Testudo

Feel free to steal whatever you want, Jake!

[nikossaiz]

congrats Seleukos! I will have a try as soon as possible! I strongly believe that you are on the right direction. Same wit The script changes

As of my campaign playing as seleucids, turn 68, Rome is dominating italia, but dont step up on sicily neither expanded on north. Instead they try to push ( after conquering all the dalmatic coast ) further into thrace and getae lands, north of danube. The macedonian ( now macedonian uncupers ) ubsorbed by athens and now the Hellenic league has all the greek peninsula exept sparta. Sparta after the few 2-3 turns and some battles are standing completely still. All are my allies and help them push off ROme. ( so i involved as a player a little with romes AI behavior ) Ptolemaic empire standing still also. Neither lose lands neither gain either. My satrapes lose lands, gain lands, some revolt, some stay loyal, i am sure that the thing that dont gain bonus from script playing a vital role on the campaigns course.

[Jake Armitage]

Feel free to steal whatever you want, Jake!

Thx
We'll disuss privately about PIGS edicts, I'haven't started to think about, actually

[Tenerife_Boy]

Thanks bro for the update!!!

Jake, wait what? aren't age of hellenism and pigs compatible? I wouldn't step into others territory so both mods are fully compatible and complementary. Work together guys, not separate.

[Jake Armitage]

Yeah, Pigs and AoH are compatible, I didn't modify anything abot edicts for PIGS yet.
AoH will just overwrtie DeI's tables, nothing about PIGS.

Use them together until future developments.

Maybe we'll work togehter maybe not, we haven't discuss anything yet.
For sure I don't want to have these 2 submods colliding at all.