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Thread: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

  1. #1
    Civis
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    Default [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    I set the “phalangites” to guard mode, phalanx on, perfectly still and the enemy still manages to penetrate into the formation. I’ve seen this problem with the Cohors Sociorum where they just launch themselves onto my phalanx as if the sarissa aren’t there. Am i doing something wrong?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    On what difficulty are you playing, and how deep formation are you using?

    You can't expect phalangitai to be indestructible. But even regular phalangitai will, at least on hard difficulty, hold against any forward pressure long enough to win the battle elsewhere. Enemies will filter in a bit, and units with prec will sometimes get through when throwing javelins, but as long as phalanx has enough ranks, they'll hold. In my experience, 5-6 ranks deep formation is enough. While the rear ranks won't engage directly, they help stiffen the formation and deal with those who manage to filter though.

  3. #3
    Civis
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    Default Re: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    I played on Hard. I actually tested it with three units (me: 1 phalangite + 2 hoplitai on each flank) vs 1 unit (the ai: 1 cohors sociorum) so that the “phalangites” were many many ranks deep (>6 ranks) and had their flanks covered.

    The ai targeted my phalangites, charging them headon and basically leaped over their pikes while throwing javelins.

    Phalanx units aren’t as good as they used to be in EB1...

    EDIT: Why do phalangites use "phalanx" instead of "shield_wall?" It seems like shield_wall is better because all spears (instead of just 3 ranks) will be pointing towards enemy.
    Animations could be adjusted so that 'walking' unit holds pike upright and 'ready' stance has them point it parallel to ground.
    Lastly, the formation spacing could be loosened so that the pikemen aren't so tight together.
    Last edited by OJ33DA; December 29, 2018 at 10:32 PM. Reason: edit
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  4. #4
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    The M2TW engine simple isn't as good as the RTW one when it comes to a number of facets. Either way the comparison is meaningless, they are different engines.

    The sooner you get yourself out of the mindset of thinking EBII has anything whatsoever to do with EB1, the better.

  5. #5

    Default Re: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    Generally phalanxes are defensive units, as their stats shown, and their role is to dissuade cavalry from attacking and holding in place any unit they come in contact with. Their weakness is how immobile they are, and how much of a mess they get in when their formation is disrupted.

    Phalanxes are like spearmen on steroids, amplifying all their strengths and weaknesses. They obliterate any cavalry unit they get in contact with, and can pin enemy infantry in place - creating a sort of area denial for your other units to maneuver around. Their sarissas allow them to keep back a lot of enemy soldiers (not all, and often not as many as they should, due to the M2TW engine), so less enemies are in contact with your men = less casualties over time. This makes them good at holding the line.

    The professional phalanxes (merc,katoikoi,agema) can also attempt to be offensive in some cases against certain units, but this requires micromanagement and is more a case of "i push from the rear, and my phalanx push the front" tactic. It depends on case by case basis.

  6. #6

    Default Re: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    EB1 phalanxes were busted. I would not go back to that, definitely worse option than what we have now. I have to say though, if anyone here has played DaC - their pike units are the best i came across in m2tw, even if they're on the strong side - but that is fixable with simple stats. They actually visually hold back the enemy and most importantly AI uses them well.

    Imo phalanxes still hold enemies in place very well and arent too weak, although i suspect that their tight formation helps them more than the spearwall, like with hoplitai.

    EB2 team surely worked on this issue for very long though, so it feels kinda bad to came in and claim they did badly when (i at least) have a tiny sample size compared to them. Its better than 2.3 for sure in any case

  7. #7
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    We've reverted to pre-2.3 parameters in a number of respects for 2.35, which was responsible for the improvement. The biggest item was making sure javelin-armed infantry had prec, which unintentionally reduces infiltration.

  8. #8

    Default Re: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis Baratheon View Post
    EB1 phalanxes were busted. I would not go back to that, definitely worse option than what we have now. I have to say though, if anyone here has played DaC - their pike units are the best i came across in m2tw, even if they're on the strong side - but that is fixable with simple stats. They actually visually hold back the enemy and most importantly AI uses them well.

    Imo phalanxes still hold enemies in place very well and arent too weak, although i suspect that their tight formation helps them more than the spearwall, like with hoplitai.

    EB2 team surely worked on this issue for very long though, so it feels kinda bad to came in and claim they did badly when (i at least) have a tiny sample size compared to them. Its better than 2.3 for sure in any case
    The biggest problem with phalanx units is facing the prec units, which are inexistent in DaC, but very common in EBII. The prec attribute and EBII running throw animation makes them sometime ignore the pikes and filter in.

  9. #9
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    The biggest problem with phalanx units is facing the prec units, which are inexistent in DaC, but very common in EBII. The prec attribute and EBII running throw animation makes them sometime ignore the pikes and filter in.
    We removed prec for 2.3 - it made phalanx infiltration worse, not better.

  10. #10
    Civis
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    Default Re: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    I double stacked phalanx units and that seems to work wonders:
    Sarissas, 6 ranks deep, and almost impenetrable spear wall

    In any case, I hope that the EB team continues on improving pike warfare, and maybe it’ll be perfect by v2.5
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  11. #11
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Question] How to use phalanx units?

    The default number of ranks for phalanx units is 10, so unless you're changing them in the deployment phase to give a wider frontage, then they should always have the required density.

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