[Decision] Move the Curia

[PikeStance]

Move the Curia to the Administrative Forum

Very simple, subtle change but should be a significant impact. Move the Curia to the Administrative Forums. This will return the Curia to the forum to the original location. Have doubts, look here.

The move is designed;
+ To promote that the Curia for the sharing and suggesting of site improvements.
+ To fosters a more cooperative spirit between citizens and the administration.

The obvious argument; would this make a difference? There is no telling, but it is a small step towards bettering the site.

[Leonardo]

The link you posted is part of the history on TWC.

I would like to extend this proposal to also include moving the CCT along with other Curia related threads from the Q & S subforum into The Capital forum as a separate Curial Commentary subforum, while the other subforum is the Curia, similar to what the Tribunal has today.

The Capital - Curial Commentary subforum

Administration

• The Capital - Curia
• The Capital - Curial Commentary

Tribunal - Commentary subforum


Support.

[Commissar Caligula_]

Opposed. It just seems like change for the sake of change.
Sure it probably wouldn't do anything negative, but I don't see how it'd do anything positive either so whats the point?

[Leonardo]

Opposed. It just seems like change for the sake of change.
Sure it probably wouldn't do anything negative, but I don't see how it'd do anything positive either so whats the point?

It is not a sake of a change and Hader's Curial Overhaul Order 66 proposal is something I see as inevitable, unless someone can present a damn good reason why Hader's proposal aren't necessary.

[Gaius Baltar]

Oppose.

What the Curia needs is an injection of fresh ideas and energy that new members would bring to it.

[Sir Adrian]

Opposed. The Curia is far more visible and accessible here.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

I don't believe Pike's suggestion would harm us but I also think Settra is correct. Isn't the Curia more visible and accessible now ?

[Leonardo]

Isn't the Curia more visible and accessible now ?

Only for citizens at the moment. Of course for non-Citizens too, read-only, who even care about what is going on in the Curia.

There is also another reason why this change wouldn't hurt to do aside from Hader's proposal and it is what GED outlined here.

I know it's a 4 years old thread, but some of it is already included in Hader's Curial Overhaul Order 66 proposal.

Oppose.

What the Curia needs is an injection of fresh ideas and energy that new members would bring to it.

Opposed. The Curia is far more visible and accessible here.

Gents, I think both of you need to present a lot better argument than this. Because Curia will be equally accessible whether it's inside the Adminstraion fora or it stays here as it is now.

Sure, Curia has better visibility, but that's irrelevant to what it is best for TWC.

[Hader]

Oppose.

What the Curia needs is an injection of fresh ideas and energy that new members would bring to it.

Yet you and many others still oppose opening the Proth in some fashion or another. Funny that.

---

Anyways, I'm here to say that since the similar comments in my thread about forum movements, I've talked some more with Hex about more of that and some other forum cleanup to go with it. The moving of the Curia is on the table for that. I'll be posting that addition to my proposal as well as any other edits hopefully later today. Perhaps it will be in line with this, though it also does more than just move the Curia as well.

[PikeStance]

The link you posted is part of the history on TWC.
I would like to extend this proposal to also include moving the CCT along with other Curia related threads from the Q & S subforum into The Capital forum as a separate Curial Commentary subforum, while the other subforum is the Curia, similar to what the Tribunal has today.
The Capital - Curial Commentary subforum
Administration

• The Capital - Curia
• The Capital - Curial Commentary

Tribunal - Commentary subforum
Support.

For now, I rather keep this simple. I hope I still have your support for the first step.

Opposed. It just seems like change for the sake of change.
Sure it probably wouldn't do anything negative, but I don't see how it'd do anything positive either so whats the point?

How is this "change for the sake of Change when I started to intended goals for that change? I have never proposed anything that just makes a change with no desired effect of that change. That would be a terrific waste of time.
The positive is to send a clear message that the Curia is the place to make a change. Right now, despite changing the description, still view as a place people go to role- play. We need to change that image.

Oppose.
What the Curia needs is an injection of fresh ideas and energy that new members would bring to it.

Yes, exactly,.1. Patronize active contributing members. I found three of my last 4 by simply chatting on the forum; Jurand of Cracow, Slyk, Daruwind, zoner16. Slyke is an active modder for NTW and not recently another member was patronized for modding an old game. There are embers everywhere.
2. As I mentioned above, the Curia in the Administratie forum would send a clear message that the Curia is the place to suggest a change. The "Capital" sounds like a playhouse.

Opposed. The Curia is far more visible and accessible here.

Not really seeing a need for this. I also don't like the implication that the Curia's sole function is administrative. Having a dedicated area for citizens gives us better scope to do other things.

NOW

______________________________
CAPITAL
Curia
______________________________
SUPPORTING TWC
Official TWCStore
______________________________
ADMINISTRATION
Questions and suggestion
etc...
______________________________

AFTER

______________________________
SUPPORTING TWC
Official TWCStore
______________________________
ADMINISTRATION
Curia
Questions and suggestion
etc...
______________________________

Quick side note. I would move the store at the bottom of the Admin forum and have a link to the store at the top of the right column.

Anyway, it is still there, except now it is in a location that the Curia is actually something worth being a part of, rather than some separate entity altogether.
The description makes it clear what the Curia is; A Citizens only forum for the discussion of proposals for the betterment of the site and nominations for citizenship, awards, and elections.
Citizenship becomes more purposeful and meaningful since the placement puts citizens as stakeholders of the site.

Yet you and many others still oppose opening the Proth in some fashion or another. Funny that.
Anyways, I'm here to say that since the similar comments in my thread about forum movements, I've talked some more with Hex about more of that and some other forum cleanup to go with it. The moving of the Curia is on the table for that. I'll be posting that addition to my proposal as well as any other edits hopefully later today. Perhaps it will be in line with this, though it also does more than just move the Curia as well.

One step at a time.
If I recall, your movement results in devaluation of citizenship. In which I responded that people should patronize worthy citizens. I made the same point here. My patron would say (in regards to large awards) that one does not have to shoot lightning bolts out to earn the award (paraphrase). This puts citizenship standards into greater focus; you only need to contribute in a way that it is a significant investment of your time. As long as someone demonstrates ideal behavior, then there is no reason, even with less activity, that we cannot have double if not triple the applications. If you participate in this Curia and you have less than 3 clients, then ask yourself why? Especially if you advocate opening up the Curia. If you want new blood and you are not patronizing, then that mirror should tell you something.

[Hader]

One step at a time.
If I recall, your movement results in devaluation of citizenship. In which I responded that people should patronize worthy citizens. I made the same point here. My patron would say (in regards to large awards) that one does not have to shoot lightning bolts out to earn the award (paraphrase). This puts citizenship standards into greater focus; you only need to contribute in a way that it is a significant investment of your time. As long as someone demonstrates ideal behavior, then there is no reason, even with less activity, that we cannot have double if not triple the applications. If you participate in this Curia and you have less than 3 clients, then ask yourself why? Especially if you advocate opening up the Curia. If you want new blood and you are not patronizing, then that mirror should tell you something.

I've patronized plenty in the past, many having done a ton of great work in modding and/or staff. But how many of my clients, or their own, come to the curia to actively contribute? Relatively few. Though many still do a lot with their respective modding or staff work.

Patronizing more does not translate to just more curial activity, let alone worthwhile curial participation in anything staff or site related. Pretty much and modding or staff related venture on this site is in no way made better or easier by being a citizen now. So how is patronizing more people who already do this stuff going to ever change that?

There is a disconnect that isn't going to be fixed by just more patronizations. And while I even agree with this proposal to just get the Curia out of this Capitol category and move it with other administrative forums, alone that sort of move is more cosmetic than anything. You may want it to show to people the Curia is a super serial place of site administration, but placing it in that category to give that impression doesn't actually make it so, and if that's somehow what it took to spur people into some new golden age of curial involvement in the site in a meaningful way, I would honestly be more disappointed than proud that that is all it took.

I support the idea for the move, but along with the ideas in my proposal, I think the move is essentially pointless in the long run without other substantial change. Hence why I included it in my proposal with everything else and would prefer to see it all pass together still. If my proposal wasn't a thing, or it does fail vote, I would still be fine with this idea and move here and support it, though I would have no faith in it actually mattering long term.

Quick side note. I would move the store at the bottom of the Admin forum and have a link to the store at the top of the right column.

Anyway, it is still there, except now it is in a location that the Curia is actually something worth being a part of, rather than some separate entity altogether.
The description makes it clear what the Curia is; A Citizens only forum for the discussion of proposals for the betterment of the site and nominations for citizenship, awards, and elections.
Citizenship becomes more purposeful and meaningful since the placement puts citizens as stakeholders of the site.

The store may be moved to a hidden area, or at least out of its own category, regardless. It will probably be moved there anyways if kept public.

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Not really seeing a need for this. I also don't like the implication that the Curia's sole function is administrative. Having a dedicated area for citizens gives us better scope to do other things.

[Axalon]

"Opposed for the sake of opposing"... Or just plain old opposed... Its a mystery!

- A

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't see what this would accomplish.

[♔atthias♔]

support

[Belisarius]

Oppose on the basis of remembering when it was there. If the Curia had executive powers over more then itself then it would be fitting, but if it doesn't then it would only serve to confuse the general membership.

[PikeStance]

Oppose on the basis of remembering when it was there. If the Curia had executive powers over more then itself then it would be fitting, but if it doesn't then it would only serve to confuse the general membership.

This is precisely why I object whenever someone claims I am trying to bring back the "golden age." Even though the Curia was referred to as a "government" in its beginnings, it was a poor analogous approach. The site cannot function as a "government," despite references to the Roman Republic notwithstanding. The reference is cursory at best. At least, it ought to be. In the past, I have advocated for renaming the Constitution to "site by-laws" (or something cute and Roman sounding, why not, its history). The site by nature is a business. Citizenship is a significant stakeholder. In other words, a significant member that has given both their time and effort thus invested in the success of the site.

The site is dependent on these contributors and their feedback as "pillars" of the community. In return, they are expected to be exemplary members of the site. As committed stakeholders, they become a part of the administration of the site for reason stated. The Curia outside of the admin suggests something else entirely. Is there a functional difference between the Q&S forum and the Curia forum? Yet, one is removed from the administration of the site even though membership suggests a far more invested member in order to actively participate. As history has shown, very little suggestion from Q&S, so it is unlikely that it will ever serve that purpose. Most, if any at all, come from the Curia, but it is underused and unrecognized as a means for that purpose.

[Belisarius]

To be fair, the site could function with a democratically elected government more now then it could have back in the "Golden Age" as long as you keep the safeguarding mechanism of GeD and his ultimate ability to veto. There is a lot about TWC's History which isn't on the site anymore and much of the instability was actually caused off site and what you see here is the repercussions of decisions taken on MSN Messenger at the time.

From what I see now ghosting the place this has not changed; the Curia is manifesting symptoms of an identity crisis where community using what has essentially become an outdated form of online interaction.

GeD and Hex have done an amazing job keeping her going and I would never criticise them but I feel the site needs a facelift, one that would be expensive and GeD should not have to pay for it in time or money.

Im much older now and what I would suggest is you engage in dialogue with Hex to fund a complete renovation, speed it up, use new modes of revenue such as twitch and propose a bilateral business plan.

If the community wants to be a committed stakeholder it should put its money where its mouth is.

[PikeStance]

If the community wants to be a committed stakeholder it should put its money where its mouth is.

I am not sure if you mean literally or figuratively.

I know a while back, GED got into some tax issues with donations to the site. Other sites do allow donations and they seem to be little issues with it. I don't think, however, this is the route this site would or need to take.
You do not need to spend money to be a stakeholder. (a person with an interest or concern in something, especially a business.).

Im much older now and what I would suggest is you engage in dialogue with Hex to fund a complete renovation, speed it up, use new modes of revenue such as twitch and propose a bilateral business plan.

I have actually done this. Several years ago, I suggested creating a new position; A strategic Planner. The person would research and survey membership to ascertain what they want from the site and then to develop a plan of action to achieve this goal. Unfortunately, the site was in denial of the decline in activity, so it was dismissed. Undaunted, I made a number of other suggestions, from redefining how content is presented (the hub) approach, the Modding staff, which was eventually accepted and implemented, etc... One of the things I advocated is had an outreach towards youtubers to develop good relations with the community at large. This was part of the "Hub" idea.

[QUOTE=Belisarius;15719374]To be fair, the site could function with a democratically elected government more now then it could have back in the "Golden Age" as long as you keep the safeguarding mechanism of GeD and his ultimate ability to veto. There is a lot about TWC's History which isn't on the site anymore and much of the instability was actually caused off site and what you see here is the repercussions of decisions taken on MSN Messenger at the time.

From what I see now ghosting the place this has not changed; the Curia is manifesting symptoms of an identity crisis where community using what has essentially become an outdated form of online interaction.

True to a point. The site, in general, has lost its feedback. In the beginning, it receives enormous feedback from members and the site, though reactive, was able to accommodate what people wanted. In time, this feedback 'dried up" and the place stops being reactive at all resulting in a stale environment. Some expressing despair believing there is nothing can be done. The Curia lost its identity has the place for that "change' and thus the place lost its place as well within the community at large.

[Belisarius]

I know a while back, GED got into some tax issues with donations to the site. Other sites do allow donations and they seem to be little issues with it. I don't think, however, this is the route this site would or need to take.
You do not need to spend money to be a stakeholder. (a person with an interest or concern in something, especially a business.).

I dont know how it works in the USA but here you would register the site as an NGO and be tax exempt up to 15.000 profit, so what you essentially do is spend everything you are donated before the end of the year.

If the site was in the EU I would suggest registering it as such and reforging the Constitution into a Statute and funnel funding into a common TWC NGO account.

I would suggest a core group be set up where the Curia and Hex form a working group to draw up objectives with estimated costs, so if an upgrade costs 1500 Euros, a go fund me can be set up where the community contributes financially.

The Community cant expect GeD, who saved TWC from being killed, to keep paying for TWC.