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Thread: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

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    Default The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    The govenrment of Sharia May has fully embraced this neo-Marxist crap to fight imaginary issues like ''the gender gap'', which she called a ''burning injustice''.

    We start seeing the results.



    Unsurprisingly, as the data above shows, affirmative actions helps primarily those non-whites that come from wealthy backgrounds anyway, killing the whole argument in favour of it.

    Full article:

    The gender attainment gap at schools in the UK has endured for years. The percentage of boys scoring an A or above at GCSE level (the main exams for children aged around 16 in England, Wales and Northern Ireland) has lagged behind girls by more than 5 per cent every year since data was first published in 2001. The gap widened every year for a decade until 2018, when the girls’ lead slightly narrowed — though it was still a significant 6.5 percentage points. Boys who come from disadvantaged backgrounds face even greater challenges, and white boys from deprived backgrounds have particular difficulty. In 2015, only 9 per cent of them progressed right through the education system to university — a lower rate of higher-education participation than any other ethnicity/gender pairing, and three times lower than the national average of 28 per cent. We might expect that boys’ performance deficit would be reproduced two years later at A-level but in fact the gap was reversed in 2017, and for the past two years boys have slightly outperformed girls in terms of the share of their entries awarded the top grades at A-level (the exams taken around age 17 to 18).

    One major reason is that more boys than girls drop out of school at age 16, and it tends to be the academically weaker students who leave. Thus, from the same cohort of 16-year-olds, the boys who go on to sit A-levels gain ground on their female peers in terms of their average academic ability. Researchers believe that boys’ maturity in terms of brain development is also catching up to that of girls’ from about this age.

    Another contentious factor in boys regaining ground could be the change in assessment format of some subjects over the past two years, which has seen coursework phased out, leaving everything to a set of final exams. An FT analysis found that between 2016 and 2017 — the period during which A-level formats were changed, and boys overtook girls — boys’ results improved by wider margins than girls’ did in all but one of the reformed subjects, while in the unchanged subjects the two sexes fared more similarly.



    Higher education Looking beyond school to higher education, female students now far outnumber males. In 2017 UK universities awarded places to 136,000 UK-domiciled female applicants and just 105,000 males. Application success rates have consistently been roughly equal across both genders, so the main reason for women outnumbering men among first-year students is that fewer men apply. This in itself can be traced back to men dropping out of the system between ages 16 and 18. Going into the school year in which pupils turn 16, boys outnumbered girls by five per cent across all English schools in 2015, but girls entered GCSEs at a higher rate, meaning the number of boys and girls who sat at least 5 GCSEs that summer was roughly equal. As well as being more likely to enter GCSEs, girls then went on to achieve higher grades. From the same male-heavy year group, girls outnumbered boys by 15 per cent among those who achieved at least five good GCSE results in 2015. One year later, 74 per cent of 17 year old boys in England were in full-time education, compared with 80 per cent of girls. Another year on, in summer 2017, 27 per cent more girls than boys sat A-levels in England, and 29 per cent more girls than boys applied to university across the UK as a whole.




    Young British women first became more likely than men to attend university in the early 1990s, coinciding with the expansion of higher education in the UK. Since going ahead, women’s lead in higher education participation has steadily widened, from around three percentage points in 2000 to 12 points in 2017.
    https://www.ft.com/content/d53298f8-...0-57a2a826423e

    The outcome is hardly surprising, the goal of race and gender Marxism was always to hurt the so called ''oppressor'', the white male and indeed it's what they do. I don't find any other solution than recognizing its advocates as the racists and sexist they are, banishing them from the fields of education and scrapping the whole programs.

    But since it's the UK, where the police spends more time policing online mean comments rather than fighting actual crime (which is soaring), expect absolutely nothing. I guess those liberals that hate white people are happy about this outcome.

    Sooo, thoughts? Yay or nay? Is this a problem at all or is it a welcome outcome? Happy to live in a society where liberals will discriminate against you based on your race, gender or sexual orientation?
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; December 16, 2018 at 04:55 AM.

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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Pretty sure your thesis is mostly bollocks, its about 50% "drunk at the bus stop" OT ranting and 50% "alt right edgelord in his mum's house" low tier conspiracy theory. If it gives you satisfaction posing silly rhetorical questions by all means carry on.

    There are genuine issues with poverty, education access, ethnicity and gender. I can't see a single intelligent comment about those here though.
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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    You forgot to blame Russia, Cambridge Analytica and whatever nonsense you liberals come up when you things don't go your way. Besides, this isn't even the case. This is the outcome you want.

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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Jesus christ, this has nothing to do specifically with Marxism. That is my only comment. Stop misusing concepts.
    Its not because politicians are "ne-marxist" that there is a gender gap issue that is being dealt with.

    Especially not Marxist or Neo-Marxist. Neo-Marxist never dealt with the issue of gender at this level.
    It was during the post-modernist that it became a huge issue back in 1970s.

    You use "liberals" and "marxism" in the same sentence.
    Debating an existing social problem is one thing, making a cluster**** of concepts for wrong reasons with bad intentions is another.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Discrimination to achieve equality of outcome is Marxist derived concept, just like the categorization of oppressor/oppressed.

    You can blame me for analysing it from a conservative perspective of good and evil, because here a side is clearly evil.

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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Discrimination to achieve equality of outcome is Marxist derived concept, just like the categorization of oppressor/oppressed.

    You can blame me for analysing it from a conservative perspective of good and evil, because here a side is clearly evil.
    Affirmative action is not a concept from marxism. The first ones to use this is J. F. Kennedy and L. B. Johnson, but its origins are from long debate in the US about black discrimination during the 30 and 40s, see Executive Order 8802.
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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    I'm not sure here how much i'll be able to contribute of value. But i would say this is a big problem. I'm one of the 9%, incredibly poor background, who has made it to an MA (So personal perspective coming up- which naturally does not constitute a proper 'full picture' or has much weight i know). But the analysis of the FT (Naturally i would say, because its such a big subject) has left out the real issues and pervasiveness around 'Class' in the UK- which literally scuppers a fair bit- Civil Service Fast-track, Specific applications- heck even high profile people like Young- all getting a leg up for being part of the privileged elite (Which i do not base on race, but wealth).

    The shift by the Conservatives to exams for instance compounds this broadly as A) Exams are absolute crap when it comes to providing a proper education its not remotely linked to real life circumstances or experience as coursework was, you only study to pass the exam- its not learning, its rote once again. I say this as someone who excels at exams. B) It has allowed tutoring and all that lovely stuff that wealthy parents can afford to come back to the fore, i'm sitting with Oxford Postgraduates- lovely guys and girls, but whose parents nearly all paid for them to receive a mass of extra tuition as soon as it came for them to get into a Private/Public school or Grammar School (another issue in the UK).

    The reason these are issues isn't me being a SJW, its that the UK suffers from being a low-skilled economy, and our education system is designed to compound that. Particularly with the changes to student Uni funding, but even with how normal Schools are funded compared to their 'elite' kin- Bucks the Grammar vs Comprehensive is very interesting (And one i'm very familiar with as i've posted a few months ago), 'merit' does not really open the doors that it should in a society that purports to be meritocratic.

    So that's a layer that has gone unlooked at. The second major layer is 'culture'- again i come from a council estate, which at the time (still is i think) the most deprived area in Britain. The Asian and Black kids- had this family culture that was veeeery different, there was a massive emphasis on them to become lawyers or doctors or whatever, and it wasn't just a stereotype- some of my mates had a hugely strict discipline regime enforced on them in regards to education. One of them she was not allowed to socialize or a boyfriend until she'd finished 6th form and got away to uni. It would be come home, start reading. Now sure teens find ways around this- but the overbearing precedent was that. While for the 'lads and me' there was a thing that education was lame (This was the 90s and early 2000s ) trying hard in school was not cool, families were (Thankfully) more relaxed (and by the way am i in no way blaming parents here- i think forcing your kids to essentially have no childhood is incredibly bad and leaves a lot of scarring- but i get why given that these boy and girls had, or were perceived to have even less chance than me at getting into a 'good' life so their parents were driven to ensure that) and i was 'bantered' for being someone who did read (Genuinely read...not even specifically science or politics or history stuff... but things like Harry Potter...Biff and Chip...).

    After saying all this- i didn't actually go to uni after A levels, i got offers, but i went to work instead first at a bar, then in retail for about 4 years. So i kinda really did fit the profile of the above study. What happened was i went back though as i think i was finally ready after the real world to appreciate education better- 4 years in customer service is dire, low pay, low prospects, the general public are largely a bunch of whenever they walk into a shop, managers did (Do? According to current Weatherspoons and JB Sports stuff) exploit us.

    At the same time, my mates whose parents had been so harsh on them due to their backgrounds were getting out there properly- ones a Pilot, another now is a City Banker (I use a less appropriate term). My mates who were white- some are like me, after a few years got back into education, but most have gone the entrepreneurial route (Small traders and tradesman). So i think there is a massive element of private culture at play here, not just the state (The state which i tend to perceive as being less about this justice warrior style stuff- which is more token for me- and more about prolonging a class based system of opportunities, where if you are from a poorer background you have to want it and fight harder than if your from a better off one- and again not to knock specifically those guys who i'm currently with, they deserve to be here (We're at a Russell Group one- shite student satisfaction rating, great academic reputation and job prospects) and are certainly intelligent enough, but i wonder with how i had to get here, how many others are just as intelligent, but also didn't want to be Doctor Who growing up and so don't have the same over-drive to get into uni. So again- personal subjective experience- doth not count for much typically i know, so i can't really contribute much more and will gladly tap out on this thread But there's a private element at work here in terms of cultures which the state is not responsible for- what the state is responsible for in the UK is actively protecting its class system. 'Party of aspiration Conservatives' my arse- Grammar, exams etc- all things that weight it in favour of those whose parents are well off enough to give them those extra skills, connections and lessons (and again the kids themselves- they work hard in those extra provided lessons- its not easy being trained to past the 11 plus, its the fact though that money gives them that opportunity- specifically in public schools who have a tutor on hand specifically for getting into uni to help them).

    The affirmative action stuff in this context, i personally think has little bearing on why things are the way they are currently- the FT is concentrating on the wrong issues, but 'gender' i suspect sells better given the battleground has moved from actual economics to identity politics- which is wrong- when in the UK context it really is class and economics (as economics i would argue has shaped the 'culture' of poorer kids like me and my mates far more than gender- and likewise economics has driven my friends's parents who are from ethnic minorities to essentially rob their kids of their childhoods in favour of gains later in life- perhaps their is an 'immigrant work ethic' thing at play here, i don't know. But there was a massive difference).

    EDIT: Apologies for my terrible spelling, grammar and all that being worse than usual- Yesterday was my bro's Birthday- so feeling very worse for wear currently.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; December 16, 2018 at 06:03 AM.
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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Those who tell us that privilege is based on race and sex, and want to account for those factors in education, distract us from the real issue, which is one of wealth.

    If you look at the kind of people in University depts, in philosophical and socialogical areas in particular you will find post-modernists who say there is no such thing as objectivity and rationality, that it is a construct of the white male to create a world to his ends. And those people tend to not be working class.

    The longer this goes on, the more disaffected British youths will become, exponentially so as the students of these University professors are tomorrows leaders and politicians.

    Affirmative action is not the way to go, the right policy is financial means testing and the like. That’s what the left used to be for. Do I sound like a right winger saying we should have help for the poorest to be able to go to university?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    One thing that feminists in particular have not yet accepted is that when you have a more egalitarian society, the gender differences increase, not decrease. Gender differences are cultural and genetic, when you minimise the cultural, you maximise the genetic.

    Last edited by Aexodus; December 16, 2018 at 06:17 AM.
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    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Those who tell us that privilege is based on race and sex, and want to account for those factors in education, distract us from the real issue, which is one of wealth.

    If you look at the kind of people in University depts, in philosophical and socialogical areas
    100% Agree here mate. The crux of the debate in the UK has moved away from wealth, while leaving it entirely and completely unaddressed. If i was a cynic i would tentatively point towards this 'serving' the UK 'establishment' as the removal for class-based politics for identity politics means that they don't actually have to reform or change anything. Privilege based on wealth essentially being protected by media and politicians spinning on the 'but what about this?', because its easier to tackle this type of thing than look at what is causing it overall- which would require a serious reform of the UK's political establishment and economic structure- things that are 'too hard' and too fraught to be able to score easy political points on.

    This is despite the fact too that tackling 'wealth' and the systems that support it so unfairly, would also at its core also deal with white, black, Asian, men and women equality issues, in terms of improving their prospects, as being poor is a universal experience in Britain.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; December 16, 2018 at 06:18 AM.
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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Discrimination to achieve equality of outcome is Marxist derived concept,
    It is not a Marxist concept. It is a policy outlook that you can apply from whatever ideological background you come from. I for one am sure that the İttihat ve Terakki elite of the Ottoman empire were fierce conservative Turkish nationalists that had no idea about Marxism when they plundered the wealth of Christians to distribute to Sunni Turks.

    Even in this particular thread, you are contradicting yourself. For instance, Marx never adressed the "gender" or "race" issues in explaining inequality. He emphasized inherited wealth problems and structural inequality of the capitalist economy, which is what you are complaining here about as well.


    just like the categorization of oppressor/oppressed.
    Again, not a specifically Marxist thing.


    because here a side is clearly evil.
    You are simply pushing an agenda in a very clear way which makes debate pointless. It is obvious here that your beef is more with the liberal/marxist/whateveryoulabelthingsyouhate than pointing out a social problem to debate it.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    This really is a daft OP. Nowhere in the quoted FT article is it stated that 'diversity and inclusion' policies are somehow to blame for the white working class being left behind, nor is any other evidence provided to suggest that either. My own cursory research seems to suggest it's more of case of culture and attitude, as well as issues with the education system, rather than affirmative action for minorities getting in the way.

    In terms of previous literature, this study supports research that argues pumping resources into raising academic attainment is not enough on its own to reduce the achievement gap for WWCBs. We must also consider the social context and lived experiences of pupils (Childs & McKay, 2001; Nuttall & Doherty, 2014). Elements of Bandura’s theor y of self -efficacy (1977) were also seen to be at play, affecting the low attaining boys’ ability to persist, leading them to be easily distracted and give up in the face of difficult tasks despite stating their want to do well in school. The study also supports Reay’s findings that education for the majority of working class pupils is seen as “something to be got through rather than got into” (Reay, 2010, p.335). This was reflected in the boys’ views of finding some subjects boring but understanding the need, and societal expectation, for them to achieve in these subjects. 220 This study goes some way to help to identify areas where change can be made to improve the educational experiences of WWCBs. The study offers some proximal factors such as teacher pupil relationships, peer influences, choice and physical/practical educational options which are "easier to impact on than the more structural factors underlying the SES variable" (Strand, 2014, p.25). When designing interventions to raise the attainment of WWCBs, schools may want to consider the areas flagged in this study to try to make schooling an enjoyable experience rather than a tick box exercise. Therefore, a question for educators is how to make the curriculum and school ethos more applicable, relatable and engaging for WWCBs. Can a leaf be taken out of the SEN and mental health book where they no longer try to fit the individual to the service, but the service to the individual? (Department for Education, 2014)
    http://repository.essex.ac.uk/15476/...dobe%20pdf.pdf

    Ironically, the solution that was floated a couple of years ago seems to have been affirmative action for white working class boys.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35540700
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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    It is not a Marxist concept. It is a policy outlook that you can apply from whatever ideological background you come from. I for one am sure that the İttihat ve Terakki elite of the Ottoman empire were fierce conservative Turkish nationalists that had no idea about Marxism when they plundered the wealth of Christians to distribute to Sunni Turks.
    The foundational principle of marxism is that there is an economic imbalance between two classes, one with power (bourgeoisie) and one without (proletariat).

    When you see people say “you can’t be racist towards X, it’s Y that has the institutional power” that is essentially neo-marxism of grouping society into the oppressed and oppressors.

    Jonathan Zimmerman of the University if Pennsylvania
    But surely, we can ask our colleges to avoid placing burdens on groups that have already borne them. I’m fine with giving an advantage to a black or Latino student over a white man – when all other things are equal – to enhance diversity on our campuses. But benefiting the white male over a superior Asian American or female candidate makes no sense; indeed, it makes a mockery of affirmative action itself.
    The remedy for this is to equalise outcomes by forcible redistribution of wealth. Marxism, and socialism, are built on social economics. That is why it usually fails, you can’t simply take care of the social and ignore the financial and expect it to work.

    Having lost the economic battle, marxists have turned their attention to another target, such as equalising wages between men and women, and crucially, they believe any disparity is always the result of discrimination.

    If you remove cultural influences in people choosing their careers, as Sweden has almost done, the differences get larger, not smaller. So the only solution is then to force people into jobs they may not want.

    Equality of outcome is not always a marxist concept, but it can be and is in certain contexts. If you don’t believe Marxism is popular these days, just look at the British Labour Party.
    Last edited by Aexodus; December 16, 2018 at 07:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    100% Agree here mate. The crux of the debate in the UK has moved away from wealth, while leaving it entirely and completely unaddressed. If i was a cynic i would tentatively point towards this 'serving' the UK 'establishment' as the removal for class-based politics for identity politics means that they don't actually have to reform or change anything. Privilege based on wealth essentially being protected by media and politicians spinning on the 'but what about this?', because its easier to tackle this type of thing than look at what is causing it overall- which would require a serious reform of the UK's political establishment and economic structure- things that are 'too hard' and too fraught to be able to score easy political points on.

    This is despite the fact too that tackling 'wealth' and the systems that support it so unfairly, would also at its core also deal with white, black, Asian, men and women equality issues, in terms of improving their prospects, as being poor is a universal experience in Britain.
    Couple of cracking posts, nothing like a hangover to focus the mind on the way things really are. Things are adrift in my country, but I definitely saw elements of what you describe in London when I was there.

    There are cultures that push education. There are class and wealth barriers in England. These are real problems, as is the way boys mature differently to girls and how many fall out of the system. Crapping on about Marxists is a foolish distraction from a bunch of real problems.
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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Liberals love to brag about how they control education but all of a sudden when it comes to take responsibility for its spectacular failures they bring up cultural differences and genetic differences, aka the conservative arguments.

    Uningbelievable.
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    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; December 16, 2018 at 07:35 AM.

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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The foundational principle of marxism is that there is an economic imbalance between two classes, one with power (bourgeoisie) and one without (proletariat).

    When you see people say “you can’t be racist towards X, it’s Y that has the institutional power” that is essentially neo-marxism of grouping society into the oppressed and oppressors.
    Muslims vs Non-Muslims
    Romans vs Barbarians
    Colonizers vs Savages
    Our nation vs their nation
    rich vs the poor

    I can create policy frameworks out of all these antagonisms, independently of Marxism.

    Be it landgrab, taxation models, population resettlment, urban planning, education modelling, militarization etcetcetc

    Thats simple politics. It is nothing unique to Marxism. People can find any political/ideological label they want for a visible social antagonism.
    My point is that, whether Marxism exists or not, the current race/gender/white blabla thing would have been going on.
    Because it is a visible antagonism in today's society. No political reads a book on Marx and decides to do this gendermumbojumbo...Its not in Marx anyways.

    Us vs marxists/liberals is just another made up abstraction in the minds of the altright folk to justify their concerns.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    I can create policy frameworks out of all these antagonisms, independently of Marxism.
    I never disputed that. I am saying marxists exist and there is a resulting affect. I am saying they will always look for an oppressor/oppressed dialectic whether it actually exists or not, because of ideology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Couple of cracking posts, nothing like a hangover to focus the mind on the way things really are. Things are adrift in my country, but I definitely saw elements of what you describe in London when I was there.

    There are cultures that push education. There are class and wealth barriers in England. These are real problems, as is the way boys mature differently to girls and how many fall out of the system. Crapping on about Marxists is a foolish distraction from a bunch of real problems.
    Too true, though i am seriously regretting my life choices yesterday But agreed here, and i want to make really clear i'm not passing a judgement specifically that those cultures (Immigrant culture/specific ethnic minority or whatever) are wrong to push so much of an emphasis onto their kids that education before all else is harmful or wrong (Though i somewhat believe it is, but i get the contexts that drive such an attitude), or that my own parents and those of my white mates are 'too relaxed'- its due to my parent's that i'm where i am currently, their very supportive of everything i've done- and again perhaps that is a difference (parental support vs parental drive)- but this is something i really want to avoid getting into as i am no expert at all on parenting or anything like that . But there is an element here to this and the added issue i think economic circumstances have a lot to do with it- the growing number of parents who are in working poverty (directly due to government policy), that will have a huge impact on kids going forward. Dare i say too that those making the decisions in working poverty, having to work overtime or 3 jobs to not even make ends meet and choosing which bills to pay. They themselves are here due to the scenario i mention above. Its cyclic and all comes back to the UK's mess of a society in terms of actively maintaining (Albeit with updated elements) a very class based society in terms of opportunities (Not even outcomes i'm talking- we all take the same 11 plus for instance, the kids all work equally as hard...or not but those children whose parents can afford the extra outside tuitition which teaches the kid specifically for that exam, they'll succeed. That's not even going into the fact that private and public schools have departments set up just for that, from aspiring students and also for their students when they want to get to uni- the Oxbrdige interviews- if i had applied, i would have got 0 interview training- My school indeed was at the time pulling funding from math, Music and history and channeling it to Sport (where they had a better chance of getting grants)- that's a hell of an uneven starting field, whereas Eton and Rugby provide that as part of their course.

    Hugely agree that the kind of identity politics overlay is at best a distraction from the real issues- its something to take the UK again that i find quite interesting-

    The 'modern' appellation that we see Establishment vs populist (Be that Corbyn or a more Arron Banks and Farage/UKIP style)- Its cause massive polarization in the UK political system and electorate, who people backing Remain or Leave 'to the hilt'. Yet when you talk about current domestic economic issues- nearly all agree that none of these parties have a real hope or indeed a want to solve things. Not Farage or the Conservatives Party, nor Labour, Nor Lib-dems. There is a perception and indeed arguably you see it in the policies presented that these parties will not tackle the 'real issues' (I know with Corbyn he presents himself as just that, and he may- but he is not a 'unifying' populist and that is quite telling to peoples perceptions of things)- Essentially the public all agree- our system is broken and that the alt-rigt, radical left, normal left and right and whoever else have no interest or capability of fixing it.

    Yet the 'superficial' issues such as this liberal vs alt-right or brexit (Comparatively it is) are allowed to be dominant- despite people at core knowing their 'sides' are . Its very interesting.

    I mean to bring it here- there is an Orban thread that i probably should go to - but it was about a horrific increase to overtime with all the shite quality of life that will provide families and people potentially- and yet the first thing attacked was this 'right vs left' dichotomy that was part of a broader picture of EU vs Anti-EU- when neither side is the answer here. What the thread actually is about is Orban's government ing people over- he could be left or right- its still just that.

    Its like we've lost the willingness to criticize the failings of politicians based on which identity politics group they claim to belong to. Its weird and massively unhelpful.

    Again i'll caveat this by saying i'm not saying the broader picture of left vs right, nationalist vs globalist, liberal vs conservative or whatever general polar entities that are being discussed isn't a valid and useful discussion, but when its happening at the expense of basic stuff that needs tackling (Like Governments creating exploitative work legislation, or a Political body that includes the 'populists' who support a class based system with only minor changes being presented back and forth) its gone silly and is enabling (Not to sound too revolutionary) the various elites who are currently in an ideological war with one another (Right and left both trying to appeal to the 'masses' while driving forth their own specific conception of society that still does not address root problems- that's potentially Corbn, Trump, Orban, Macron, May, The Canadian whose name i can't actually recall right now- blame the hangover , Putin the EU or Anti-Eu blocs) its getting detrimental.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Dante I'll give you an adequate answer in the evening.
    Appreciated mate, but do feel free to take your time i'm probably going to be quite out of it until tomorrow and then also apologies if i don't reply, I hold you in the highest regards and its not me disrespecting you at all. As i said, its more this isn't my area and will probably be poor form on my part my defending a personal experience position vs a statistical and academic one as you present normally very well. The latter should in discussion always trump the former and i won't be disingenuous by saying 'those figures are balls and i disbelieve because my mum once told me...'
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  18. #18

    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I never disputed that. I am saying marxists exist and there is a resulting affect. I am saying they will always look for an oppressor/oppressed dialectic whether it actually exists or not, because of ideology.


    And in the specific case of this policy, it's specifically the neo-Marxist framework that's the core ideological one. Sure there are others, but they are irrelevant to this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post

    Appreciated mate, but do feel free to take your time i'm probably going to be quite out of it until tomorrow and then also apologies if i don't reply, I hold you in the highest regards and its not me disrespecting you at all. As i said, its more this isn't my area and will probably be poor form on my part my defending a personal experience position vs a statistical and academic one as you present normally very well. The latter should in discussion always trump the former and i won't be disingenuous by saying 'those figures are balls and i disbelieve because my mum once told me...'
    Don't worry about anything. You know I always appreciate your input regardless of whether we agree.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; December 16, 2018 at 08:52 AM.

  19. #19
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    And in the specific case of this policy, it's specifically the neo-Marxist framework that's the core ideological one. Sure there are others, but they are irrelevant to this case.


    Basil, you cannot just name whatever you disagree with as "Marxist". Those retarded policies that promote inequality and fester resentment are not Marxist at all. They are just stupid policies conceived by populists to appease to the growing number of progressives.
    Marx didn't believe in ethnicities.
    The
    actual
    way to make things better and more equal would be to do some actually kinda-marxist thing:
    Completely ignore racial or gender backgrounds
    . Whether one is Asian, woman, Black, Sikh, gay or white
    just look at the damn income
    and not the package of that income.
    Is he\she poor? Give support. That's actually more Marxist than actually
    encourage
    discrimination that would make people feel resentment.

    It is completely idiotic in my opinion that a white boy from a family that makes X per year is given less from the state than a Persian girl from a family that makes the same amount of money! It is completely unfair.
    For good or for ill, people's opportunities are mostly defined by their wealth, not their color in the 21st century Western world. Treating a poor Persian girl more special than a poor white boy is unjust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Those who tell us that privilege is based on race and sex, and want to account for
    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    those
    factors in education, distract us from the real issue, which is one of wealth.


    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    This really is a daft OP. Nowhere in the quoted FT article is it stated that 'diversity and inclusion' policies are somehow to blame for the white working class being left behind, nor is any other evidence provided to suggest that either. My own cursory research seems to suggest it's more of case of culture and attitude, as well as issues with the education system, rather than affirmative action for minorities getting in the way.


    The progressives and the leftwings (that's not the same thing) have the Higher education by the genitals for the past 30 years. Whatever goes right and whatever goes wrong should be attributed to them. And while the article may not mention that diversity and inclusion policies are to blame, they don't have to.
    I don't buy the "it's a culture problem! Poor Asian kids work harder and are smarter than poor white boys!" crap as it is, at its core, racist. No, Asian kids are not better than white kids nor their culture is better. It is because between a poor white boy and a poor Asian girl, the poor Asian girl gets far more support.

    Perhaps that's a good thing: there is a greater percentage of poor Asian girls than poor white boys. Despite percentages, Poor white boys in a predominantly white country are far more in actual numbers so supporting them equally to the poor Asian girl would drain the system more.

    But I think it is a bad thing that breeds resentment. Stop giving out based on race and gender.
    Last edited by alhoon; December 16, 2018 at 09:56 AM.
    DIE: Diversity, Inclusion, Equality (Pun on SJWs, I am not far-right)
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  20. #20

    Default Re: The effect of ''diversity and inclusion'' policies: white working class British kids worst performing group in education

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Discrimination to achieve equality of outcome is Marxist derived concept, just like the categorization of oppressor/oppressed.

    You can blame me for analysing it from a conservative perspective of good and evil, because here a side is clearly evil.
    We could observe same kind of policies in Lenin and Stalin's USSR. So yeah, affirmative action was an invention of same people that murdered millions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Affirmative action is not a concept from marxism. The first ones to use this is J. F. Kennedy and L. B. Johnson, but its origins are from long debate in the US about black discrimination during the 30 and 40s, see Executive Order 8802.
    Nah, it was a policy in USSR long back when Kennedys were still a bootlegging crime syndicate.

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