View Poll Results: What should we do with the last faction slot?

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  • Use it for a new faction

    43 37.07%
  • Use it for scripting purposes

    73 62.93%
  • Not use it at all, leave it forever open

    0 0%
  • Something else entirely, not listed above!

    0 0%
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Thread: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

  1. #21

    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    IMO it should be a new faction. The eleutheroi arent bad as they stand now.
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  2. #22
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    I had a feeling when I posted this that it would end up a split down the middle.

  3. #23
    Libertus
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    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    IMO it should be a new faction.

  4. #24
    Morrowgan's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Decisions like this make me sad that there isn't a thing like OpenMedieval 2 like OpenMW for example.
    Member of the Beyond Skyrim Project

  5. #25

    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Yeah, I mean I voted for scripting, but that comes from my very limited knowledge of how big a difference it would make to have another faction involved in it.

  6. #26

    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    I would say Scripting. I love this mod, and as much as it would be great to get a new faction, If your able to script the Rebels to be a big challenge, We will have a Syrakousai that is a threat, We will have Rebels in North Italia that act like a faction in that they raid roma, OR having Nomads that go into baktria and challenge the player whatever faction they may be. If you could Script rebellions to pop up, that are an actual threat like 2 armies. That would make the game far far better than any new faction. I mean People think about it, Saka right now, When do you interact with Rome? After 200+ turns. as Ptolemay faction you deal with Seleucids mostly, And the same goes with every faction. If the scripts create Rebel Armies, (as historically there are many mutinies that caused trouble for factions like carthage and their mercenary war) Than i would gladly choose the script that makes the game better for EVERY faction, not just the one faction that will be near 1-2 other factions.

  7. #27

    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Really, surprised nobody is going to suggest: emergent playable Yuehzi faction? Accessed through a separate startup path perhaps (call it 'hardcore'?) if necessary? Talk about completing the ambitions of the game!

  8. #28

    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Quote Originally Posted by moisesjns View Post
    I would say Scripting. I love this mod, and as much as it would be great to get a new faction, If your able to script the Rebels to be a big challenge, We will have a Syrakousai that is a threat, We will have Rebels in North Italia that act like a faction in that they raid roma, OR having Nomads that go into baktria and challenge the player whatever faction they may be. If you could Script rebellions to pop up, that are an actual threat like 2 armies. That would make the game far far better than any new faction. I mean People think about it, Saka right now, When do you interact with Rome? After 200+ turns. as Ptolemay faction you deal with Seleucids mostly, And the same goes with every faction. If the scripts create Rebel Armies, (as historically there are many mutinies that caused trouble for factions like carthage and their mercenary war) Than i would gladly choose the script that makes the game better for EVERY faction, not just the one faction that will be near 1-2 other factions.
    my god.. imagine the kimbrioz eleutheroi army marching down to attack mediolanum sometime after rome holds it? that sounds fun!

  9. #29
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Quote Originally Posted by moisesjns View Post
    I would say Scripting. I love this mod, and as much as it would be great to get a new faction, If your able to script the Rebels to be a big challenge, We will have a Syrakousai that is a threat, We will have Rebels in North Italia that act like a faction in that they raid roma, OR having Nomads that go into baktria and challenge the player whatever faction they may be. If you could Script rebellions to pop up, that are an actual threat like 2 armies. That would make the game far far better than any new faction. I mean People think about it, Saka right now, When do you interact with Rome? After 200+ turns. as Ptolemay faction you deal with Seleucids mostly, And the same goes with every faction. If the scripts create Rebel Armies, (as historically there are many mutinies that caused trouble for factions like carthage and their mercenary war) Than i would gladly choose the script that makes the game better for EVERY faction, not just the one faction that will be near 1-2 other factions.
    We can already script armies with the current rebel faction, the rebel faction now also recruits, they attack you often (at least in VH), I have been attacked by Gallic rebels five times during a short Roman campaign (they tried three times to take a city), by rebels on Pontic campaigns, etc... Another faction for scripting reasons has its value and good arguments, but we can keep improving the game by scripts with the rebel faction and instead have a specific faction in the game.

  10. #30

    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    We can already script armies with the current rebel faction, the rebel faction now also recruits, they attack you often (at least in VH), I have been attacked by Gallic rebels five times during a short Roman campaign (they tried three times to take a city), by rebels on Pontic campaigns, etc... Another faction for scripting reasons has its value and good arguments, but we can keep improving the game by scripts with the rebel faction and instead have a specific faction in the game.

    This. IMO its best to take the safe option and just add another faction, whilst improving the eleutheroi AI.


    While in adding a normal faction in control of all the rebels..... There are too many variables that need to be checked, if the devs follow like they said that they test every change.. such a thing would need to be tested for a LONG time, in many long term campaigns... Imagine this rebel faction taking over the world, or being at peace with other factions... and what not.

    If the point is to NOT have a rebel faction that is in control of all the eleutheroi cities, but to add through fixed scrips armies here and there attacking some of the factions.... then its a waste of a faction IMO, since you can do that with the normal rebel faction, AS it is already done with the migration scripts, the taksashila independence, etc etc.
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  11. #31

    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    The Cimbri/Teutonic invasion would be a nice horde faction for later game, like the Mongols are in Stainless Steel.

    However I see, many here are advising scripting, though, I do not understand how a faction could be used to improve scripting?

  12. #32

    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    What about using one slot to represent a few mini factions spread across the map, historicaly more active than the rest of the Eleutheroi? Like Illyrians, Syracuse, Skythians, Meroe, Galatians, Caucasian Iberian, an some late emerging like the Cimbri, Yezhui, etc... And If the 29th faction really is a Bélgic tribe I would even dare to say it could represent as well... A Gallic confederation like the Aedui... We don't really need two identical playable Gallic factions. In that way we could still have two new unique playable factions ^^
    It wouldnt be even impossible to have a submod with a playable version with these mini factions or to have a script to empower the one closer to the player. The difficult part would be how to represent them in-game as to look like real mini factions each one with their own identity.

  13. #33
    alex33's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Quote Originally Posted by LusitanianWolf View Post
    What about using one slot to represent a few mini factions spread across the map, historicaly more active than the rest of the Eleutheroi? Like Illyrians, Syracuse, Skythians, Meroe, Galatians, Caucasian Iberian, an some late emerging like the Cimbri, Yezhui, etc... And If the 29th faction really is a Bélgic tribe I would even dare to say it could represent as well... A Gallic confederation like the Aedui... We don't really need two identical playable Gallic factions. In that way we could still have two new unique playable factions ^^
    It wouldnt be even impossible to have a submod with a playable version with these mini factions or to have a script to empower the one closer to the player. The difficult part would be how to represent them in-game as to look like real mini factions each one with their own identity.
    You'd have to asign it a culture. And one singular culture for a faction spread out around the map would not really work IMHO.



  14. #34

    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Quote Originally Posted by alex33 View Post
    You'd have to asign it a culture. And one singular culture for a faction spread out around the map would not really work IMHO.
    Actually, you can do exactly that - or at least mimic things so they all appear different to the player. To include matriarchies, different races, etc.
    EBII Council

  15. #35
    badass7's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    I'd have to say a new faction. Primarily because having a faction devoted entirely to scripting sounds like a large and prolonged undertaking, for arguably minimal (if nice) gameplay enhancement over the current setup. I know a few other mods have similar setups (I believe RS2 had 2 free peoples factions, as well as a roman rebels faction, and Third Age's MOS submod has Sauron as a hidden faction in the corner of the map). Having a new faction to play in one of the more barren areas and using the time to enhance and refine the current faction scripts sounds like a better idea to me. But then again, I know bugger all about scripting!

  16. #36
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    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    In my incrediblely honest opinion,
    I think it’s obvious who will win.
    EB team should give victory to Blue team
    ----- ---------
    HACKING INTO THE MAINFRAME!!!

  17. #37
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Despite my initial considerations being that it was better to allocate the final faction for a single faction like the Illyrian, after talking with other members (thanks for explaining to me) because I wanted to understand their reasons on why use a faction slot for scripting, I have finally been convinced!
    Therefore, while initially I voted to use it for a new faction, I would like to change my vote (but I can’t)

    So, why would a Scripted Faction be better?

    First, I would just like to say that I already knew some of the things we could do with a scripted faction, but thought that it would simply be better to have a unique faction.

    Now, a scripted faction would mean a very detailed system (with many many files modified and needing a huge amount of testing) but would allow the representation of mini factions spread across the map, historically more active than the rest of the Eleutheroi, factions that we would be able to make peace, trade, have diplomatic relations. They would fell alive and could all appear different to the player, with different races, governments, etc. In addition, the proponents of factions like the Illyrians, Syracuse, Scythians, Meroe, Galatians, Caucasian Iberian, some late emerging like the Cimbri, Yezhuwhich would get what they want with a truly revolutionary start-to-mid game system. We would be capable of scripting navies (it’s impossible with the rebels) and have far more possibilities in the game, actual invasions, not just some standing rebels lurking around.

    Think about this people, we are not talking about just a unique faction that will affect very few players and will change little in the campaign map. The Illyrian, for example, may help the expansion of the Boii and the Getai but it will not solve the problem and believe me, after doing a 200 turns campaign with Pontos and checking on all the other factions from time to time, I saw that factions like the Boii are somewhat afraid of attacking the rebel factions (they see it as the big bad neighbor) and they end up having 3/4 full stacks hanging around their territory, going bankrupt pretty soon. And this happens too with the Pritanoi, Celtiberian, Aedui, etc.

    One thing that would be different is that their behavior would be a lot more aggressive and different because they would be attacking other faction (they seem to be more willing to go to war against other factions beside the rebels and conquering their territories). Indeed, with one more faction acting like an advanced rebel faction, we would be able to divide more the map and consequently, change the behavior or the AI factions into a more expansionist one. Because currently (and it will not change if we end up adding one more unique faction), all non-faction provinces are rebels and every faction is at war with them. That has all sorts of game impacts, many of them unpleasant, especially the need to script or start with all sorts of huge rebel armies (with most being completely unhistorical, but necessary to stop quick unhistorical faction expansion), because the only mechanism we have is war-related

    However, it would be possible to have the last faction occupy a select group of provinces and enforce peace with all the other factions, so now you have trade, non-aggressive neighbors (which would be more faithful to history), and you can create all sorts of specialized "looks" to make them appear like completely unrelated mini-factions. There is a number of mechanisms to get there, but one other benefit is that choosing to play any of the 29 normal factions will give an additional unique experience. After all, depending on which faction you play, you will have different mini-faction neighbor, all of whom are amenable to specialized scripting to enhance the appearance of them being "real" factions. As just one example, the Ptolemaioi can experience a realistic Meroe neighbor. This would only last for about 150-200 turns, after which the game should have evolved in a more historically appropriate manner (by now most of the rebels would be dead or becoming static fortified cities with full stacks and nothing more) and the system proceed into the second phase, which absolutely CAN be a 30th human player faction.
    For the player who does choose to play as number 30, sure the opening part of the game is going to be time-consuming and rather uninteresting (mostly watching the other factions develop and hitting end turn), but talk about adding a completely new experience to EVERY game you play as this faction?

    In the end, no two game experiences will ever be the same, because your neighbors will have expanded differently every single time and you could face either a landscape of fragments or a massive AI neighbor who can annihilate you immediately if you don't use every bit of skill you possess.

    So now the stacks are between choosing what we already know and end up with EBII being a mod that offers 30 factions the player can choose and that’s it , or… going for the unknown and choosing to completely revolutionize the game, with a different gameplay, challenge and perspective for every campaign and a wonderful unique experience that almost no other mod currently can provide.

    What is your decision?
    I have made mine and decided to leave the last faction for scripting purposes!

  18. #38
    Genava's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Now, a scripted faction would mean a very detailed system (with many many files modified and needing a huge amount of testing) but would allow the representation of mini factions spread across the map, historically more active than the rest of the Eleutheroi, factions that we would be able to make peace, trade, have diplomatic relations. They would fell alive and could all appear different to the player, with different races, governments, etc. In addition, the proponents of factions like the Illyrians, Syracuse, Scythians, Meroe, Galatians, Caucasian Iberian, some late emerging like the Cimbri, Yezhuwhich would get what they want with a truly revolutionary start-to-mid game system. We would be capable of scripting navies (it’s impossible with the rebels) and have far more possibilities in the game, actual invasions, not just some standing rebels lurking around.
    Thanks to confirm my first thought about it. I was suspecting it was very efficient for multiple mini-factions. There are plenty of cultures, cities and small kingdoms that aren't suited for a full playable faction but are missing in the dynamic of the game, as the ones you mentioned.

    Think about this people, we are not talking about just a unique faction that will affect very few players and will change little in the campaign map. The Illyrian, for example, may help the expansion of the Boii and the Getai but it will not solve the problem and believe me, after doing a 200 turns campaign with Pontos and checking on all the other factions from time to time, I saw that factions like the Boii are somewhat afraid of attacking the rebel factions (they see it as the big bad neighbor) and they end up having 3/4 full stacks hanging around their territory, going bankrupt pretty soon. And this happens too with the Pritanoi, Celtiberian, Aedui, etc.
    Yeah, I don't know why but some factions that look similar have very different behavior. The Sweboz are very aggressive during the whole game, the Boii are a bit expansionist the first turns but they start to become defensive very soon as you noted, the Lugiones are often aggressive but they can't compete with the Sweboz and start to goes in the east to survive.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Sounds nifty, but for a single caveat: peace enforced galatians would be kind of an abomination.

  20. #40
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: [30th Faction slot] What would you like to see?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Thanks to confirm my first thought about it. I was suspecting it was very efficient for multiple mini-factions. There are plenty of cultures, cities and small kingdoms that aren't suited for a full playable faction but are missing in the dynamic of the game, as the ones you mentioned.



    Yeah, I don't know why but some factions that look similar have very different behavior. The Sweboz are very aggressive during the whole game, the Boii are a bit expansionist the first turns but they start to become defensive very soon as you noted, the Lugiones are often aggressive but they can't compete with the Sweboz and start to goes in the east to survive.
    To be honest, that part from the mini-factions was mostly copied from what the other players told me, but I also had some experience with that when I played RTRVII (still in MTW2 there are things that can be done better).

    And take into consideration that there are some initial moves by the Factions that the team has scripted to happen, otherwise the expansion would be worse. But yeah, I had the same results in my campaign, both Sweboz and Lugiones were very expansionist, went into war but reached a null that ended with the Lugiones going east.

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