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Thread: Influence and political mechanics

  1. #1

    Default Influence and political mechanics

    So, how does political and influence mechanics exactly work?
    Im using DEI with the latest beta (1.2.3f) and Im still trying to figure out how to balance politics.
    I remember that the number of senators is affected by each characters gravitas and multiplied by its ambition, but this doesnt seem to be working for me.
    In every campaign I play, one of the secondary parties ends controlling half of the senate, with the other two parties having very low influence.
    I tried assassination, entice and adoption, but it doesnt seem to be affecting the balance of power in the senate.
    What am I doing wrong?
    BTW, GREAT mod, I always recommend it to my friends.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    I've also noticed this problem in all of my campaigns as well.

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  3. #3
    ScipioTheGreat's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    I think you guys might be onto something

  4. #4

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    I have a guess based on the anecdotes I've seen. It appears that anytime I have an event or action that loses my influence, a single party benefits. I've always assumed that there's a hidden mechanic that when you do things like send a diplomat, promote a character, etc. there's a slight downward tick in influence. That's usually offset by the increase in your character's gravitas. But if indeed that small benefit is going to one party only, that explains why there always seems to be you and one other relevant party. These are all just guesses. I don't mod and haven't done controlled tests - just things I think I've noticed.

    I do have to say that I find the current balance of power dynamic very easy to manage. While it's a bit silly that one opposition party dominates, balancing between my party and the opposition works pretty well (maybe too well).

  5. #5

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    Yes I agree, if politics could be a bit more challenging and demanding, this would add depth to the campaign. More events, more consequences that really affect your country depending on your choices during these events, and a real threat from internal politics could be a nice thing

  6. #6

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by nhvanputten View Post
    I have a guess based on the anecdotes I've seen. It appears that anytime I have an event or action that loses my influence, a single party benefits. I've always assumed that there's a hidden mechanic that when you do things like send a diplomat, promote a character, etc. there's a slight downward tick in influence. That's usually offset by the increase in your character's gravitas. But if indeed that small benefit is going to one party only, that explains why there always seems to be you and one other relevant party. These are all just guesses. I don't mod and haven't done controlled tests - just things I think I've noticed.

    I do have to say that I find the current balance of power dynamic very easy to manage. While it's a bit silly that one opposition party dominates, balancing between my party and the opposition works pretty well (maybe too well).
    Yes, I realized that too. It seems that only my family and other of the political parties are being affected by events and political actions, while the other two families influence its affected in a minor and indirect way.
    This is a pain in the ass, as all those fantastic political options that CA added seems to be useless and only the classic "send diplomat, organize games and send an emissary" seem to grant a real benefit.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    I can confirm all you guys are mentioning. This has happened to me in two campaigns I've played so far:

    - only one party gets the other chunk of the pie, while the rest have little to none influence
    - only one party gets loss/gain of senators effects from political actions
    - it is almost impossible to control any party's influence reliably. It doesn't matter if you only focus on your family members, all with high gravitas, winning battles, promoting them... and just have the party leader with low gravitas for other parties. Influence just won't budge.

  8. #8
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    This is a complex matter and some things are surely hardcoded.
    How to figure a mod to understand and correct them, is yet to be done.
    I've got some concepts, I've seen most of the things that are actually moddable, but I (personally) don't have an answer yet.
    Hope to have one (or to be able to limit bad behaviours) one day.
    Intrigues will be redone (already done most parts) and custom incidents/dilemmas will be applied to diversify possibilities.

    Pay attention to political events (banquets, capital revolts...) 'cause they will assign power and loyalty without notifying it.

    To be honest I never faced unbalanced situations, probably because I know better the system.
    So the first rule is to pay attention to every political dilemma and intrigue.
    And never recruit charachters you don't need nor marry too many of them.

    Please adress political matters into this thread
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15710631
    Do not write in any other, please.
    Doing this will give modders a more comprehensive knowledge about every political aspect into a single thread.
    Thanks.
    Last edited by Jake Armitage; December 13, 2018 at 12:43 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    A quick question on the topic: what determines the influence level? (you know, 'trusted', 'admired', 'exalted', 'beloved',...)
    I assumed it just reflected the influence percentage, but then I have situations like this:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20181203174042_1.jpg  

  10. #10
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    Influence (and senators) is affected by political power, which is affected by:
    - char gravitas and char ambition (through some equation which is hardcoded but could be coded if someone has the will to spend time and take notes, most probably)
    - political power itself, which comes from a lot of things like events, intrigues, effect, imperium levels ...

    you can mod the % of changing threshold into DeI > db > political_parties_power_effect_bundles_tables
    effects are into DeI > db > effect_bundles_to_effects_junctions_tables > _Politics_Imperium_effect_bundles_to_effects_junctions

  11. #11

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    Influence (and senators) is affected by political power, which is affected by:
    - char gravitas and char ambition (through some equation which is hardcoded but could be coded if someone has the will to spend time and take notes, most probably)
    - political power itself, which comes from a lot of things like events, intrigues, effect, imperium levels ...

    you can mod the % of changing threshold into DeI > db > political_parties_power_effect_bundles_tables
    effects are into DeI > db > effect_bundles_to_effects_junctions_tables > _Politics_Imperium_effect_bundles_to_effects_junctions
    Yes, I get that (by which I mean "I don't get it, but I get that I don't get it").
    But right now, in my Iceni campaign, I have an influence of 62% (748 of 1200 tribal chiefs). This is also reflected by the semicircle of power, which is filled with my color to well over half. Above that semicircle, there are 5 of the 8 big dots filled ("admired"), which is 62.5%. This is also called "influence".
    It's all perfectly consistent and easy to understand.

    However, in the pic I showed in my previous post, my influence is both 32% (164 out of 500 senators) and 50% (4 out of 5 dots). This looks like a bug, and I should have one dot less (the level below "balanced influence in the state").
    Because, as I understand it, while the way influence is calculated may still be somewhat a mystery, the influence itself should be consistent.

    edit: by the last bit I mean to say: isn't influence the end product of all calculations? Or does influence also affect the influence level (ignored, disrespected, overlooked,...) in mysterious ways?
    Last edited by Flying Fox; December 13, 2018 at 01:46 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    In a recent update awhile back I changed our imperium influence effects to more closely match CA's vanilla effects in an attempt to make it more dynamic in the later game. We seem to have a problem where influence gets stuck or so built up to a large number by the mid game that it doesn't move much after that.

    Our original imperium effects gave something like 10-20 influence to the ruling party. CA's effects were closer to the hundreds instead, so I added that a few months ago. Its possible that change has resulted somehow in having only 1-2 parties have the influence majority, I am not sure. To be honest, a lot of the political systems seem fairly opaque and hardcoded to me.

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  13. #13
    ScipioTheGreat's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    In a recent update awhile back I changed our imperium influence effects to more closely match CA's vanilla effects in an attempt to make it more dynamic in the later game. We seem to have a problem where influence gets stuck or so built up to a large number by the mid game that it doesn't move much after that.

    Our original imperium effects gave something like 10-20 influence to the ruling party. CA's effects were closer to the hundreds instead, so I added that a few months ago. Its possible that change has resulted somehow in having only 1-2 parties have the influence majority, I am not sure. To be honest, a lot of the political systems seem fairly opaque and hardcoded to me.
    I removed them 2 days ago and influence seems to work better without. They added in effects actually seem to make it more stagnant

  14. #14
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Fox View Post
    However, in the pic I showed in my previous post, my influence is both 32% (164 out of 500 senators) and 50% (4 out of 5 dots). This looks like a bug, and I should have one dot less (the level below "balanced influence in the state").
    Because, as I understand it, while the way influence is calculated may still be somewhat a mystery, the influence itself should be consistent.

    edit: by the last bit I mean to say: isn't influence the end product of all calculations? Or does influence also affect the influence level (ignored, disrespected, overlooked,...) in mysterious ways?
    both 32% (164 out of 500 senators) and 50% (4 out of 5 dots):
    what do you mean? I can't get it. Everything seems fine to me.
    isn't influence the end product of all calculations?
    Yes, should be, through a formula we don't know or can change.
    Or does influence also affect the influence level (ignored, disrespected, overlooked,...) in mysterious ways?
    Sure that influence "influences" (ignored, disrespected, overlooked), through DeI > db > political_parties_power_effect_bundles_tables

  15. #15

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    both 32% (164 out of 500 senators) and 50% (4 out of 5 dots):
    what do you mean? I can't get it. Everything seems fine to me.
    Ow, sorry, I meant 4 out of 8 dots. I've tried illustrating it:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	rome 2 politics.jpg 
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    At the top you see that influence should be 4 out of 8 = 50%, or more likely between 37.5% and 50%. Yet influence is 32%

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    Or does influence also affect the influence level (ignored, disrespected, overlooked,...) in mysterious ways?
    Sure that influence "influences" (ignored, disrespected, overlooked), through DeI > db > political_parties_power_effect_bundles_tables
    Ah, thank you, I'll study that and see if I can come to a better understanding.

    edit: ah yes, it all makes sense now. I didn't know that influence influences influence in different ways depending on faction.
    Last edited by Flying Fox; December 13, 2018 at 02:29 PM.

  16. #16
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    think dots just represent "you're balanced into senate", they should diminish or grow depending on power level.
    nothing more, nothing less

  17. #17

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    think dots just represent "you're balanced into senate", they should diminish or grow depending on power level.
    nothing more, nothing less
    Yeah, looking at the numbers right now. But I hope you understand my confusion, the dots are also referred to as "influence".

  18. #18

    Default Re: Influence and political mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    ........
    And never recruit charachters you don't need nor marry too many of them.......
    This is particularly interesting - just because I am currently applying just the opposite rule!

    For me the main issue with marrying is that it doesn't get the same bonus (initial experience) from the buildings as a recruited character gets - and I do wish that could be fixed.

    But making sure everyone gets married results in:

    - more characters (and far, far, cheaper) in other parties allowing easier control

    - when you have few characters and one is killed off, then the wife can re-marry some young buck - far, far cheaper than recruiting (especially when sparsely populated factions have no recruitment options - let alone being cheaper!)

    - more wives can at least one day hopefully result in getting that Empire Maintenance under control earlier (I do wish the earlier Imperium increments didn't have such harsh increases - and we still hope for the Team to talk about the design intent and effect of small +/-'s)

    - Cheaper - have I mentioned cheaper????? ;-)
    "RTW/RS VH campaign difficulty is bugged out (CA bug that never got fixed) and thus easier than Hard so play on that instead" - apple

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