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Thread: Camilian Triarii should be equal numbers to Hastati/Principes

  1. #1
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    Icon5 Camilian Triarii should be equal numbers to Hastati/Principes

    I see that the Triarii (Camilian) are half strength to Hastati/Principes but according to this image, provided by the italian wiki--which btw has more info and pics about the Romans than the english wiki, go figure--the triarii, rorarii, accensi, hastati, and principe had equal numbers in a legion:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The source seems to come from Livy, and I know that the EB team has stated the Livy is not the most reliable when it comes to military stuff but nevertheless, I want to know what the team has to say about this...

    Also, this image refers to the makeup of the legion during the Latin War (340 - 338 B.C.)
    so did the legion change by the start of the game (272 B.C.)?
    Last edited by OJ33DA; December 09, 2018 at 11:42 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Camilian Triarii should be equal numbers to Hastati/Principes

    Polybius is more reliable when it comes to that issue yes, but the line of Livy states that the third section of 15 is not formed the same, was made up of triarii, accensi and rorarii, not just triarii.

    So the accensi and rorarii are ignored in your wiki article as part of the third section of 15, and are rather stated as two additional sections of 15 instead?
    Last edited by Mamlaz; December 09, 2018 at 05:54 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Camilian Triarii should be equal numbers to Hastati/Principes

    This is the english translation with comments by me in curly brackets:

    “The third was formed by fifteen other "orders" {15 columns}, each made up of 3 handpieces {3 maniples: 2 subunits of 30 men per maniple} (the first of Triarii , the second of Rorarii and the third, of Accensi ) of 60 armed each.
    [41] Each of these fifteen units {15 orders/columns} consisted of two standard- bearers and four centurions , for a total of 186 men {6 leaders per order}. The Triari were veteran soldiers of proven value, the Rorarii , younger and less experienced, and finally the Accensi , last row of little trust.”

    As you can see, the wiki description matches the image. The third line is made up of 45 maniples (60 men per maniple), 15 orders (columns:3 maniples per column) and 6 leaders per order (186 men). @Mamlaz the “15” that is being referred to here are not maniples, they are orders (“ordini” in italian).
    Last edited by OJ33DA; December 09, 2018 at 06:28 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Camilian Triarii should be equal numbers to Hastati/Principes

    I've found some additional info supporting my case, this time come straight from the unit description in-game. As stated in the export_units.txt:
    {roman_infantry_triarii_camillan_descr} Camillan Roman Hoplite Maniple\n\nThe triarii form a Roman army's last line of heavy infantry. Like the rest of the legion's heavy infantry, they are organised in to fifteen maniples of 60 men each.
    The camilian Triarii unit currently has half the numbers of the Hastati/Principe (Camilian), is this an oversight from the team or does the description need to be updated?
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Camilian Triarii should be equal numbers to Hastati/Principes

    Quote Originally Posted by OJ33DA View Post
    I've found some additional info supporting my case, this time come straight from the unit description in-game. As stated in the export_units.txt:

    The camilian Triarii unit currently has half the numbers of the Hastati/Principe (Camilian), is this an oversight from the team or does the description need to be updated?
    The first Punic war start in 264 BC, the second in 218 and the third in 149. We know from Polybius that the Roman army had a smaller third line called Triarii during the Punic Wars. His account is more based on the second Punic war but since he didn't say anything for the army of the first Punic war, it is often assumed that the two structures are similar or identical.

    We know the Roman army adopted a new manipular system at some point of the fourth century according to Livy and Diodorus Siculus, maybe during the Latin war (340-338).

    The mod start in 272 BC and your schema is based on the new manipular system of the Latin war, 66 years before. The first Punic war begins 8 years after the starting date of the campaign, the Second Punic war begins 54 years after the starting date.




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  6. #6

    Default Re: Camilian Triarii should be equal numbers to Hastati/Principes

    Regardless of this historical aspect...Triarii shouldn't have half strength for gameplay purposes. It's less than factional elites of other factions, it's even less than cavalry. Those guys are useless.

    If someone wants to roleplay the half numbers aspect, just recruit half as many Triarii as Hastati and Principes.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Camilian Triarii should be equal numbers to Hastati/Principes

    I agree with both of you. @Genava I wondered if there could’ve been a dramatic reorganization of the military after the Latin War and I thought the EB team might’ve went with this interpretation, but I wanted to be sure.

    @Sar1n Currently I see the half numbers as a waste of army slots, among other irks:
    e.g. equite numbers are not appropriately proportional to the Roman infantry, it should be a 1:4 ratio
    (300Equite->1200Hastati) but that’s currently impossible to achieve.
    I also find cavalry numbers to be high for their price and gameplay purposes.
    Roman General unit numbers should also be reduced because their primary role was oversight not fighting,
    very different from the expected valor in other cultures with exception being tribunes/legates who have something
    to prove, usually political requirements to attain office.

    I’ll be working on a submod to address these issues...
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