New SAGA title

[Daruwind]

We just got new blogpost about what are teams working on in December 2018 and among many things there is one particular note:
https://www.totalwar.com/blog/what-t...-november-2018

Also, the team’s been debating the next SAGA game with a keen eye on player feedback and ideas have begun to form around the potential for a new historical flashpoint ! While we’re itching to shout it from the rooftops, because it’s so awesome – and unexpected – we’ll be keeping Mum until next year.

So the good news is, SAGA style TW is not dead after ToB. Sadly that´s all we know right now.

[AHumpierRogue]

Just gonna repost what I put elsewhere if you don't mind!



It sounds like rather than DLC they'll be making a new game. Can't say I'm too surprised, sales weren't stellar for ToB but I am glad they will keep trying with new SAGA titles, I do think they are a good idea I just wish ToB was better. Now the main question is just: Where will the next Saga be?


They say it's unexpected but I'm not really too sure how to take that. Personally I could see a Warring States game, they can take the environmental assets from 3K and use the 3K version of the engine with all the benefits that presumably provides while also using the assumed extra budget of a Saga compared to a mere DLC to really flesh out the Warring States a bit more. A SAGA set in China would also allow them to create a much more historically orientated game to appease more ultra hardcore history fans who might be a bit iffy on 3K.

Either way just please not another game set in Western Europe. Let it rest for a bit. Atleast, not if they stick to the same era, if they go medieval then fine, but I want to see something new.

[Skotos of Sinope]

And I was sure saga games had gone the way of "A Star Wars Story" movies...

They say it's unexpected but I'm not really too sure how to take that. Personally I could see a Warring States game, they can take the environmental assets from 3K and use the 3K version of the engine with all the benefits that presumably provides while also using the assumed extra budget of a Saga compared to a mere DLC to really flesh out the Warring States a bit more. A SAGA set in China would also allow them to create a much more historically orientated game to appease more ultra hardcore history fans who might be a bit iffy on 3K.

I'm one of those still iffy on 3K that would pre-order a warring states game the second they announced it, especially one that's more of a "straight historical" title. I know that The Lusted One still browses this subform, so if he happens to see this, I'll just say: Make this game and take my money!

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Let’s discuss what the next period is any guess?

[Daruwind]

I have only one major wish. That the game is again built upon older title but this time being "expansion" like FotS. Standalone if necessary, implemented if possible with performance update to the core game. The biggest ToB problem is, that it is not expansion/DLC for Attila but trying to compete with it, R2 and other standalone titles.

About setting, I can imagine quite a lot scenarios but probably no one built upon Wh engine. I would like further improvements to R2/Attila so I would pick lower two expansions:

R2/Attila -> Alexander / Possibly Diadochi War(s)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I already discussed it once :-)
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15543046

Attila/3K -> Genghis Khan
+great possibility to utilize Attila razing cities and decline in fertility..

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

oooor if CA wants to go little in the dark possible what ifs, what about Sea People invasion and Collapse of Late Bronze Age. It could be connected both with R2/Attila.
+great possibility to utilize Attila razing cities and decline in fertility..

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

...Basically main point is getting different campaign map from our classical Europe heavy one (Napoleon, Rome2, Attila...)

[Skotos of Sinope]

oooor if CA wants to go little in the dark possible what ifs, what about Sea People invasion and Collapse of Late Bronze Age. It could be connected both with R2/Attila.
+great possibility to utilize Attila razing cities and decline in fertility..

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

...Basically main point is getting different campaign map from our classical Europe heavy one (Napoleon, Rome2, Attila...)

I think this one has some of the most promise. Not only could they use a lot of what they learned from the Empire Divided DLC and Attila (i.e., dealing with a society that's breaking down, decrease in law and order and migration of new peoples), but if they wanted they could also satisfy the newer fantasy game crowd that came for Warhammer and 3K by including some 'historicized' versions of the mythological characters and events from the Trojan War and the Aeneid. It would be a great opportunity also to port in the single combat system from 3K, as it's described in Homer and Virgil.

I don't think anyone would complain that there wasn't enough content to justify a stand alone game, as they did with ToB. This saga game would justify its own existence as needing to be more than just another DLC.

[Huberto]

I'm one of those still iffy on 3K that would pre-order a warring states game the second they announced it, especially one that's more of a "straight historical" title.

Isn't this an obvious candidates for 3K-related premium DLC campaign, or even a stand alone expansion? I don't see SAGA as connected to their historical flagship game of the moment (or am I wrong about that?). In any event, it sounds like they've picked the setting and they're saying we won't be able to figure it out because they're saying it's "so unexpected."

[AHumpierRogue]

A bronze age game would be absolutely amazing. It's an era that is never really explored and could be really cool, and since CA has a hard-on for end game Crises they could even have the Sea-Peoples invasion as an end-game mechanic. That said, I imagine the SAGA is still a ways away and I can't see them going back to the Rome2 version of the engine after 3K drops, so it will be interesting to see what they do.

Isn't this an obvious candidates for 3K-related premium DLC campaign, or even a stand alone expansion? I don't see SAGA as connected to their historical flagship game of the moment (or am I wrong about that?). In any event, it sounds like they've picked the setting and they're saying we won't be able to figure it out because they're saying it's "so unexpected."

Don't get me wrong, if the SAGA is not Warring States then I fully expect it to just be a campaign pack for 3K, I just figure that with SAGA they could devote more money to the game to really flesh out the era and make the factions different while also probably making quite a bit more money, especially because of how popular the era is(I'd say it was basically anyone's second guess for a TW game set in China, and for many more it was actually their first guess).

[Skotos of Sinope]

Isn't this an obvious candidates for 3K-related premium DLC campaign, or even a stand alone expansion?

So was ToB better suited to being an Attila DLC. But on the other hand, money.

But yeah, I expected Warring States to be a 3K DLC. I was actually going to hold off on buying 3K until then. Who knows what they have planned for 3K. It seems like they're experimenting with how to put the square peg of historical games into the round hole of table top fantasy. It's really hard to predict CA's next move.

I don't see SAGA as connected to their historical flagship game of the moment (or am I wrong about that?). In any event, it sounds like they've picked the setting and they're saying we won't be able to figure it out because they're saying it's "so unexpected."

I don't know what the saga titles are really going to be. I'm surprised they're still going ahead with them. It's not just the underperformance of Thrones. The entire rapid-fire business model of 'quick turn-around, little content' games that the saga titles were supposed to be (thus filling the gap between big flagship releases that have development cycles of years) is in full backlash mode here in the industry. Look at Fallout '76 right now. I think the ground is shifting a bit and it's not clear how CA is going to respond, and we don't even know if the saga titles are still what they were once envisioned to be...

[Huberto]

I like the idea of SAGA but SAGA's postion in relation to Main Titles is cause for concern. SAGA may end up as the dusty shelf at the back of the store where they put the history fans.

[Anna_Gein]

I hope the SAGA formula will not be reproduced ever again. Thrones of Britannia turned to be a subpar TW experience.

[Daruwind]

So basically change standalone title into proper oldschool expansion? Then it would be okay?

[AHumpierRogue]

So basically change standalone title into proper oldschool expansion? Then it would be okay?

I mean, that's basically what they are. ToB is basically just an Atilla expansion. Similar to FOTS and Shogun 2. However, I do hope that in the future they do move towards making SAGA games a bit more independent from mainline titles, but for the first game or 2 I'd be fine with them basically being expansions to see if there is interest.

[Daruwind]

I mean, that's basically what they are. ToB is basically just an Atilla expansion. Similar to FOTS and Shogun 2. However, I do hope that in the future they do move towards making SAGA games a bit more independent from mainline titles, but for the first game or 2 I'd be fine with them basically being expansions to see if there is interest.

Technically yes, however Attila is also expansion based upon Rome 2 ;-) Problem is, if CA moves into more independent title, that brings additional cost and they probably won´t do that unless they can add a few DLCs. Basically that is way into fully fleshed out tent-pole games...

However, I would prefer quite opposite. Stay closer to original game. Improve it. Make old shool expansion. This way they are not needing additional DLCs, CA can easily sell bundle with original game, preorder bundle with free DLC for core game..

just imagine if ToB preorder bonus was free DLC for Attila and there was option to buy ToB in bundle with Attila for just 5 bucks more....Attila owners would buy it to get the real opmimization. It could be quite different story...

[Anna_Gein]

So basically change standalone title into proper oldschool expansion? Then it would be okay?

Stand alone titles like Atilla or FotS are great. I rather have the studio focus on that after a major release like Shogun 2, Rome 2 or Warhammer.

Imo there is no remaining space between main titles, stand alone titles and campaign DLC. ToB felt too barebone for a proper stand alone while also too costly compared to a campaign dlc.

Beside I feel like ToB was too redundant with Atilla + Atilla DLCs (espacially Charlemagne).

[Daruwind]

Just for clarification. Standalone is for me mostly R2/Attila/Shogun2 style game. Making difference between R2/Attila or Empire/Napoleon is possible but both later games are for us practically independent and standalone titles. FotS is just standalone expansion and that is what ToB was supposed to be in my eyes. Completely agree that ToB standalone is way to barebone while as an expansion/DLC/standalone expansion for Attila it would be great.

ToB is showing us that even Attila´s performance could be fixed still there is question if next SAGA would not be 64bit based. In such case it would be probably based upon Wh1/2/3K and not Attila/Rome2/ToB.

For example just last week I ran across thread about porting ToB performance over to Attila. Have not time to try it myself. But if it was working even partly, imagine what can CA do for Rome2/Attila with proper expansion..
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...tion-to-Attila

[Skotos of Sinope]

For example just last week I ran across thread about porting ToB performance over to Attila. Have not time to try it myself. But if it was working even partly, imagine what can CA do for Rome2/Attila with proper expansion..
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...tion-to-Attila

That thread reminds me why I love TWC. One guy tries something, someone else starts monkeying with it and taking it further...and suddenly you have the start of something that even CA said they couldn't do. That's the power of a community.

Anyway, totally agreed on the possibilities that still exist with the current games/engines. And I look at the recent news about companies going back and remastering old strategy games and re-releasing them, and I'm thinking Rome II 64 bit. If they do another "edition" of Rome II, I hope it's a real remastering, and not just bundled with another DLC.

But both points are off-topic. A standalone expansion, as you describe it Daru, is probably what saga titles should be. Yet they aren't. Ultimately, I just don't understand moving ahead with the flawed business model that is the ToB "saga" model. In trying to sit between the two stools of a full new title and a DLC, they fall straight to the floor. CA is boxed in when it comes to finding different avenues to make money. Warhammer is a resounding success, but not every game can be Warhammer. They tried the free-to-play, micro transaction model with Arena. But the backlash to that has begun and the interest just isn't there. With ToB, they tried a different tier of game that could be cheaper and perhaps even a new entry point for the franchise to those scared off by sprawling games with a heftier price tag. They maybe have even had good intentions, since if they had made it a bundled expansion to Attila you would have needed to buy the core game, and I suppose someone might accuse them of a cash grab in forcing someone to buy a game just to get a little expansion. But the backlash against "fast development pipeline via reused assets and little new content or replayability" has begun. Maybe they could make it a mobile game, if they want to complete the backlash trifecta. Still, more saga games are coming. And as far as we know, they aren't expansions. So what's the way forward for those? I really don't know.

[Daruwind]

I can understand it perfectly. Rome 2 launch was cluster, then came Attila which had very weak original sales. Adding to that the dificulty of the game and poor performace, somebody in CA marketing probably made the call that ToB should be as separated from Attila as possible. DLC for Rome 2 has easy life as there is so many owners. Owners of core game are prime audience to buy such DLC. But having ToB as Attila´s DLC would be risky. Not so many owners plus overall negativity of the core game is still in the air...We will probably agree that in case ToB was standalone/implemented as FotS, it would be better but honestly we don´t know. And CA probably was fearing that option would fail more than publish it as ToB is.

But still i prefer they are trying different stuff. However if ToB was Attila´s expansion or even DLC, they could easily as pre-order offer Attila as free or in some bundle with core Attila for just 5 bucks? Possibilites are limitless especially as not so many people own the game. Honestly the ToB was not more buggier than other TWs on release and after Allegiance patch and lookign forward to Steel and Statecraft patch, well well i plan to dive into the game during Christmas. If CA wanted to save monoey we would never get those two patches.

So my only real wish is that next SAGA games are really larger expansion for older game, bringing in update,performance and such stuff. You can easily sell 40 buck expansion but there is some price treshold for DLC as well. People are not used to DLC over 25 bucks. :-)

[PikeStance]

Y'all really mixes up the terms. Standalone means it does not require the purchase of another game in order to play it. Thus, the term Stand-alone.

I would not expect CA to abandon the concept of SAGA games after one game. In fact, the very same update states that the team is looking to make improvements to the game (ToB). The lackluster sales of ToB probably have more to do with market fatigued with the same type of game. I would not expect the next SAGA game to use the 32 bit, but 64 bit. I have a feeling, they rushed ToB out to get the ide out to the public. Maybe they thought the game would satisfy the Med3 crowd. It just didn't do that.

I also do not think any Chinese base game would be standalone. They will all be DLCs. They created new maps for new content before.

[Daruwind]

Pike, but how do you call FotS then? You can play it without owning Shogun 2 base game and if you own it, it get implemented/merged into it. (Standalone) expansion/campaign DLC? Because we have quite a lot campaign DLCs across multiple games but FotS is still unique. If we are considering good old days expansions basically being quite large DLCs. Yeah Napoleon, Attila are both based upon R2/Empire but they are much more like full game.

And not so sure about marketing fatigue, it looked like ToB failed to produce enough hype. It was time period before 3K announcement with just Wh(s) on the way, history guys were quite loud about content. R2 DLCs got accepted well but people just pass ToB. And basuically nothing changed till now. We have some R2 DLCs, Wh(s) still rolling, 3K is announced but 3-6 months away..

What about Genghis Khan setting? You can loosely base it on 3K game but with whole new campaign map etc.. Basing any new game on Wh(s) engine probably won´t work. That engine is tweaked heavily in favour of characters, spells, items and 3K engine si offereing a lot features that are missing there. Only those two are 64bits..